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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:51 pm
by pucknutz
hockeyfanatic99 wrote:In this day and age I do not believe that coaches/scouts rely on statistics for assessing the abilities of a goaltender. As noted, this is one of the most difficult positions to assess. Instead, I believe that coaches/scouts ask goalie coaches or former goaltenders that they trust that have seen various tenders play for their input. As stated above, so many factors contribute to assessing the abilities of a goal tender e.g. attitude, position in reference to shots, how they handle rebounds, size, their hockey sense, etc. I don't buy the argument about assessing the ability of a goaltender based on the number of shots they face. I say that because a very good goaltender controls his rebounds and a mediocre one struggles with the same. Where the good goaltender could face 15 shots and make 15 saves. A tender that might struggle with rebounds facing those same 15 shots while not letting a goal score could give up a rebound on every shot and they will have faced 30 shots! So, is the tender that gave up the rebounds and faced the 30 shots better?
Honestly...shots on goal are hardly and accurate stat in high school. It seems the scorekeeper has too many other duties to be accurate. If a goalie catches or covers the puck...its a shot. More oftern than not rebounds are not even counted, theyre not noticed or seen from the poor angle the scorekeeper has at center ice low to the ice,
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:51 pm
by midwesthockeyscout
To follow up with many of your points/questions to all you guys, the mental aspect can be summed up in different views.... 1) Leadership... how much does the goalie's presence mean to his team? Do they rally around him? How much control he has in directing the flow with breakouts, back door plays, communication.... the respect his teammates show. 2) We watch closely AFTER a goal tender gives up a goal in his ability to shake it off. For example, how many times have you seen goals scored a minute apart? Often.. That shows the instability of the goal tender's nerves, confidence, and believe me, the teammates start to lose their confidence in situations like this. How much does he fight the puck after giving up goals, and for how long?? he may not be giving up goals, but, if the catch glove disappears where pucks just hit the glove, etc.. , we know the nerves are shaken.
There are aspects I see that can show disrespect to his teammates, when, for example, a breakaway goal is scored because the Def had his head down, got his pocket picked and a goal was scored, where the goalie will cross his legs, stretch his arms across the cross bar with the attitude of "Thanks for the help, bud?"
I personally like goalies that put on a show.. from the time he steps on the ice to the end of the game..
There really are so many factors involved as it's not a great science, fellas. It's hard. I hope Cooper from East does move on. Minnesota lacks great goal tending Very few Minnesota goalies move on. Players like Alex Kangas are rare. But he has SIZE and great ability. We have seen too many all-state goalies move on to Division III or struggle in USHL or NAHL.
But right now... and yes... 90% of our goalies have very solid good technical ability at the HS level, (but not great) but we are starting to drool over 6' goalies that can MOVE... They are a couple younger goalies we like to label 'Backstromesque"... fluid movements, with great technical ability.... The bigger goalies are needed part is because the better sticks the shooter's have and part, the NHL spec goalie equipment is affecting the smaller goalies...
We don't limit ourselves to varsity goalies. We also see JV and A bantam. I basically follow a few select HS... Both JV and Varsity. Believe me, there are some JV goalies that are sophmores that could start for 75% of all varsity schools but will struggle to see the ice until senior year, because the programs keep feeding quality kids.
All I do are reports. I don't do recommendations. Rarely will I comment on this message board about an individually goalie or bis performance. I will only leave generalities, and sometimes, I may not respond to queries at all.
And yes.... making it deep in a playoff run, sectional fiinals and the state tourney helps goalies tremendously they way they can react and play in front of 5K-15K fans.
And trust me.. As you can see, I have not been a member for very long, but it's YOU - the fans _ that post on this website, which provides a valuable tool for some of us to explore the top talent in the state. So, keep up the great work, gang.
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:24 pm
by goldy313
Alex Kangas is also a kid every scout missed on, he was cut from the Elite League as a senior and was given no attention at all through his high school career. The only reason he ever got noticed was his performance at the State Tournament, going back to HShockeywatchers point, getting noticed as a goalie is tough unless you have a good team in front of you or somehow you sneak through to a bigger stage. Even then he had to go to the USHL before a D1 college would take a look, luckily for him the guy who coached his Chicago Showcase team and whose son played at White Bear Lake and against Kangas in the state tournament also became his USHL coach. Then at the U he sat behind Frazee who was terrible before finally being given a shot.
It can be a strange world, Kangas is a top NCAA goalie and a top prospect for the Atlanta Thrashers yet had his team been beaten in the 2005 section playoffs where they had 3 tough games, he wouldn't have made it to the state tournament where he played against future Sioux Falls head coach Kevin Hartzells son and would never have been drafted by Sioux Falls and his career would have ended in Rochester or in some minor junior league.
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:31 pm
by midwesthockeyscout
[... and Hartzell wasn't even the best goalie on his team at WBL, and left before his senior season to Sioux Falls. The all-state goalie ahead of him was Zach Faust, who is now, I believe, toiling away at Hamline University. Faust was like 5'7".
Let's make this clear..... The NAHL and USHL are two of the best opportunities to get noticed. It's reports that get generated, along with Stauber's Goalcrease (and his participation with Goaltending Consulting Group) and Goaltending Development Institute (GDI), which are strong local companies helping with placement into these programss thru their networking.
Let me alsso add this tidbit. With the newest Central Scouting Rankings, there are only about 20 North American goalies considered worthy of draft status. Only 3 are shorter than 6'. Only two NCAA goalies rank in the A, B, C categories and two worth mentioning. It is HARD, but our roles as scouts in the area are to get more Minnesota goalies exposure.
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:41 pm
by midwesthockeyscout
Let me also add that this is where I stated earlier that, as scouts, we look at all aspects - and I mentioned age.... There are a few sophomores we are aware of that are playing JV and varsity level that still have Bantam eligibility, which means they will be 17 years old when they graduate. These are kids we look at and speculate - and I can't stress enough the term speculate - at what they could project to be like whe these kids get to be 19 age.
I will forever use this analogy about how difficult a science this can be. When the Minnesota North Stars had the #1 overall draft pick back in the 80s and decided to take Brian Lawton, a HS player from Mass, ahead of Pat laFontaine, who at the time, broke all of Guy Lafleur's QJHL scoring records, it was based on his projection as a two-way player. I will be kind in stating Lawton had an average career, while LaFontaine went on to a great career.
What it boils down too is, we feel, with the right physical and men taal makeup, with the right training, we can develop some pretty good goaltending.
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:44 pm
by midwesthockeyscout
Oh..... late bloomers and undrafted goalies????? How 'bout the Wild's Backstrom? It was the Olympics that goy him noticed and was a rookie at what, 28, 29?
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:47 pm
by midwesthockeyscout
[... and Hartzell wasn't even the best goalie on his team at WBL, and left before his senior season to Sioux Falls. The all-state goalie ahead of him was Zach Faust, who is now, I believe, toiling away at Hamline University. Faust was like 5'7".
Let's make this clear..... The NAHL and USHL are two of the best opportunities to get noticed. It's reports that get generated, along with Stauber's Goalcrease (and his participation with Goaltending Consulting Group) and Goaltending Development Institute (GDI), which are strong local companies helping with placement into these programss thru their networking.
Let me alsso add this tidbit. With the newest Central Scouting Rankings, there are only about 20 North American goalies considered worthy of draft status. Only 3 are shorter than 6'. Only two NCAA goalies rank in the A, B, C categories and two worth mentioning. It is HARD, but our roles as scouts in the area are to get more Minnesota goalies exposure.
Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:17 pm
by King of the Pond
RBKRules wrote:InGodWeTrust,
If you want goalies that will move to next level you can't look at the goalies from the top teams because they do not face enough shots or enough quality shots for them to be noticed. Look at last year's top ten teams and tell me one goalie playing at a high level. Phillippi had the best tournament every from a goalie perspective and he is riding the pin in the NAHL. Look for the next Kangas from a second level team seeing 30-45 shots per game.
Phillippi best tournament ever??? Id have to disagree. Stutz from Centennial in 04 got a shutout in every game.
Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:04 pm
by hockeylover2011
I would not say that getting a shutout in every game meant he had the best tourney ever, or for that matter even a good tourney. Thats kind of what this whole blog was about, even though a goalie may appear good because of the team he is on he may not be all that impressive. Centenial let up very few shots in 04 so even though statistically he had the best tournament ever, it is kind of hard to tell if he himself had a very good tournament or if the team had a very good tournament. In this case I would say team because I watched him earlier in the year and he just did not seem very stable, he was much to confident for his skill level.