HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

well, two things: First one of the reasons we lose so many first year ref's is because the fee's and process one must go through to ref this game does take time and money. and the return is very minimal. The lead ref who does the scheduling does not give to many games to the begibbers - no matter what there back ground is. I have a son who is a High school SR. Plays 3rd year opf varsity. is in District 2. is a level 3 ref. Which means 3 years of testing, classes, fee's, etc) and the highest level they have given him U 12 B, most of his games are C Squirts and U10 levels. Never once had a Peewee game or above (Not even C Level).

I have talked him into it each year to go back and keep his refing going for the day he goes away to college - good way to make spending money. I have been around this game for many years - He also Umps Baseball in the summer and for some reason they veiw his skills and knowledge of the game and allow him to Ump baseball games up to the 9th grade level.

I think the lead official gives the most games to their Friends and do not look at trying to find ways to keep the less experienced (On Paper) refs on the ice. JMO.

inthestands wrote:All I'm saying is that they aren't infallible, and there is nothing wrong with calling out a bad ref.

And when the inexperienced new coach/fan/parent sees you do this, many times they will feel it's OK for them to do the same.

When you "call out" a young official, you are part of the movement keeping that group of first year officials at a less than 50% return rate for their 2nd season.

But as you've mentioned, it's your right and you are more than welcome to use it. On the flip side, don't complain when your games have poor officiating. That is due to people abusing the younger officials, and not having the ability to build those younger kids into experienced refs to take the place of the elderly, out of shape fellows that can't bend down to pick up the puck.

BTW, there is a big difference between "calling out" an official and talking wtih them during a game. It's plain to see which method you choose.

Did you even READ my post?? Man, you sure love to take things to the extreme, don't you???

I've never "abused" an official, as you say. But let me ask you a question, have you ever witnessed a Bantam get out of control because the officials refuse to TAKE control of a game and a kid get hurt because of that? I have, and I gotta tell you, I won't sit still for that and neither should anyone. It's the refs job to keep order on the ice (and in the stands). But if they won't do their job, kids get hurt.

As far as "ticky tack" stuff (offsides, etc.), I won't say anything. But when I see kids at risk for getting hurt because some ref just wants to "let 'em play", I won't be afraid to speak up.

Educator29 wrote:well, two things: First one of the reasons we lose so many first year ref's is because the fee's and process one must go through to ref this game does take time and money. and the return is very minimal. The lead ref who does the scheduling does not give to many games to the begibbers - no matter what there back ground is. I have a son who is a High school SR. Plays 3rd year opf varsity. is in District 2. is a level 3 ref. Which means 3 years of testing, classes, fee's, etc) and the highest level they have given him U 12 B, most of his games are C Squirts and U10 levels. Never once had a Peewee game or above (Not even C Level).

I have talked him into it each year to go back and keep his refing going for the day he goes away to college - good way to make spending money. I have been around this game for many years - He also Umps Baseball in the summer and for some reason they veiw his skills and knowledge of the game and allow him to Ump baseball games up to the 9th grade level.

I think the lead official gives the most games to their Friends and do not look at trying to find ways to keep the less experienced (On Paper) refs on the ice. JMO.

That is an unfortunate circumstance with the scheduling. There are some districts that use one scheduler for multiple areas. They are mentoring young officials and evaluating the entire group multiple times through out the season. That seems to be working for that association quite well.


Muck, I've never "abused" an official, as you say. these are your words not mine. From your background, I'd say we have very similar hockey experiences. I've had 3 kids go through the programs top to bottom. It also seems we've seen things quite differently along the way. Nothing wrong with that. Keeps things interesting.

muckngrind, so what give you the right to voice your opinion, by your own staments you have not taken any tests the officials have so where do you come off as the expert, My God it is youth Hockey, sit back and enjoy it for what is worth,
This is a big problem because when you think you have that right someone next to thinks they have also and it goes on and on.
If you have not taken the exams aor the time that the officials have you have NO RIGHT to voice your displeasure in the public rink,
Now i know you can say i freedom of speech, but would you take soemone giving you crap at work that knows nothing about your job
, Just because in your mind you have been around the game for years still does not give you the right to get after an official
.. If you think he has done a bad job, call up his scheduler or distrcit supervisor so they have it on record , then maybe they can get out and see the individule and help them out, or take steps to limit the games
Dont be out there and giving youth spports a bad name. because wether you think it or not YOU ARE

Hello Mr. Muck, just one more quick question.

Has an official ever stopped at the bench to critique your coaching ability in a game where they thought you were doing a bad job?

whockeyguy wrote:muckngrind, so what give you the right to voice your opinion, by your own staments you have not taken any tests the officials have so where do you come off as the expert, My God it is youth Hockey, sit back and enjoy it for what is worth,
This is a big problem because when you think you have that right someone next to thinks they have also and it goes on and on.
If you have not taken the exams aor the time that the officials have you have NO RIGHT to voice your displeasure in the public rink,
Now i know you can say i freedom of speech, but would you take soemone giving you crap at work that knows nothing about your job
, Just because in your mind you have been around the game for years still does not give you the right to get after an official
.. If you think he has done a bad job, call up his scheduler or distrcit supervisor so they have it on record , then maybe they can get out and see the individule and help them out, or take steps to limit the games
Dont be out there and giving youth spports a bad name. because wether you think it or not YOU ARE

Do you people even READ my posts???? Either you are and don't get it, or you aren't and you should.

Once again (I'll type this slowly so you can understand, OK??), if a referee refuses to take control of a game (i.e. not calling boarding, checks from behind, roughing, etc.), the game gets out of hand and a player gets hurt as a result, I will say something...as will most other clear thinking parents. I'm not talking about missing an offsides or an icing call, I'm talking about calls (or lack of) that directly lead to a player getting hurt on the ice.

IS IT THAT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?????? Are you OK with players getting injured because referees refuse to take control of a "chippy" game?

People who know me will attest to the fact that I am one of the most well-behaved parents around. But even the most well-behaved parents can only tolerate so much before they say something.

And for ANYONE here to claim that they have NEVER voiced their opinion on a bad (or missed) call is either lying through their teeth or is a new hockey parent. And if you are new, wait until you son starts playing PeeWees and Bantams.

inthestands wrote:Hello Mr. Muck, just one more quick question.

Has an official ever stopped at the bench to critique your coaching ability in a game where they thought you were doing a bad job?

If my style of coaching led directly to a player getting hurt, I would hope they would.

Mr. Muck I can't speak for whock, but I've read your posts and get the jist of your opinions.

Let's clarify that well behaved, and educated are completely different. When people voice their opinions on things they are not educated on, well behaved isn't one of the descriptions that comes to mind.

You see there are two schools of thought in a game that gets out of control. One is what you've posted about the officials not taking control of the game. Another is that the players have not been taught to properly be in control of their emotions while playing the game. A large portion of that responsibility starts at home, where the parents have them for most of the time. Next in that training process is the association, and mostly the coaching staff. Doesn't some of that guideance fall under "coaching responsibility"? And last but not least, we have the officials that see these teams a couple of times per year.

Isn't it amazing that the people dealing with these teams the least amount of time take the brunt of the criticism... From the stands, benches and message boards.

That brings me back to one of the points, the people complaining the loudest are most times the least educated.. No question there are times when officials are less than adequate. Best case is to take that up with the district supervisor if you are really concerned for the kids safety. I don't recall ever making a difference in the way officials called the game from my questioning or complaining about their game management.

Before you ask, yes I've read your posts and believe we "get it".

If my style of coaching led directly to a player getting hurt, I would hope they would. You didn't answer the question. By the way, I don't buy it..

inthestands wrote:Mr. Muck I can't speak for whock, but I've read your posts and get the jist of your opinions.

Let's clarify that well behaved, and educated are completely different. When people voice their opinions on things they are not educated on, well behaved isn't one of the descriptions that comes to mind.

You see there are two schools of thought in a game that gets out of control. One is what you've posted about the officials not taking control of the game. Another is that the players have not been taught to properly be in control of their emotions while playing the game. A large portion of that responsibility starts at home, where the parents have them for most of the time. Next in that training process is the association, and mostly the coaching staff. Doesn't some of that guideance fall under "coaching responsibility"? And last but not least, we have the officials that see these teams a couple of times per year.

Isn't it amazing that the people dealing with these teams the least amount of time take the brunt of the criticism... From the stands, benches and message boards.

That brings me back to one of the points, the people complaining the loudest are most times the least educated.. No question there are times when officials are less than adequate. Best case is to take that up with the district supervisor if you are really concerned for the kids safety. I don't recall ever making a difference in the way officials called the game from my questioning or complaining about their game management.

Before you ask, yes I've read your posts and believe we "get it".

I answered your question. If a referee thought my coaching style was leading to a players injury, I would hope they would. But no, they haven't. But I have had some heated discussion with referees as just about every coach to ever coached this game have had as well.

As far out out of control games go, you can deflect all the blame and criticism to coaches and parents all you like. The problem is that coaches and parents don't have the authority to blow the whistle on the ice...that's the referee's job. They are being paid to take control of the game. If a coach is responsible for sending his player on the ice to hurt another player, than he should be fired and the player suspended.

A referee can always take control by simply blowing the whistle and, if need be, throwing players out...or simply calling the game over, if push comes to shove. Would you prefer that the parents or coaches come onto the ice to take control?

As far as being "educated" and "well-behaved"...believe me, when it comes to the rules of the game...I'm about as "educated" as you can be. I have my level 4 coaching certification and have coached every level from Mini-Mite to A Bantam. I'm currently not coaching (due to job constraints), but that doesn't mean I immediately forgot everything I know when it comes to hockey. I've also ran accross more than few refs from my coaching days who didn't know the rules as well as they should...which is why I always carried a copy of the playing rules with me to share with them if they needed some help.

But no, they haven't.

There, you finally answered it.

As I mentioned, if any coach really wanted to impact an official and their game calling they would contact the supervisor of officials for that area and voice their concern. That is the way to get poor officiating dealt with.

If any team has a safety issue on the ice, the coach has just as much or more power to make sure things stay in control. I've been there, at all the different youth levels, and understand how it works. I take responsibility for the standards my team plays too. I can't control the opposing teams, or the officials. I try to worry about things in my control, and not so much about the rest.

inthestands wrote:
As I mentioned, if any coach really wanted to impact an official and their game calling they would contact the supervisor of officials for that area and voice their concern. That is the way to get poor officiating dealt with.

Sure, AFTER the game is over, that's what needs to happen. But during the game is something else. I have seen a kid knocked unconscious on the ice after being cross checked from behind head first into the boards with the referee standing right there and refusing to blow the whistle (for either the penalty or the injury) during a game up in Virginia...and you're saying that no one has the right to say ANYTHING during the game???? REALLY??

Now you're referencing one game up in Virginia, what back in 1984? J/K
I don't recall saying coaches don't have the right to anything. My discussion has been based around what is going to have the most positive impact on a problem.

Overall, most coach/official discussions are based on what the coach feels should have been called. That's not going to make a difference in the way that official works now or in the future.

If you felt that strongly about the safety of your players, you also have the right to stop the game and leave. That is a serious penalty, but if the players safety is in question, what's more important.

inthestands wrote: Overall, most coach/official discussions are based on what the coach feels should have been called. That's not going to make a difference in the way that official works now or in the future.

That's not necessarily true. Many times coaches will see another team do something that is consistently against the rules, like improper line changes (too many men) or continually going into the crease for instance, and will call the official over to discuss what he is seeing and ask the ref to keep an eye out for the same thing...which can lead to the ref calling the other team for a penalty when it happens again.

muckandgrind wrote:

inthestands wrote: Overall, most coach/official discussions are based on what the coach feels should have been called. That's not going to make a difference in the way that official works now or in the future.

That's not necessarily true. Many times coaches will see another team do something that is consistently against the rules, like improper line changes (too many men) or continually going into the crease for instance, and will call the official over to discuss what he is seeing and ask the ref to keep an eye out for the same thing...which can lead to the ref calling the other team for a penalty when it happens again.

Agreed, but I was talking about those "other" kinds of discussions coaches have with officials if you know what I mean. As coaches we are not going to change the mind of an official as to what should and shouldn't be called as far as penalties.

If we do change their mind, those officials need to be evaluated and trained better by higher level officials, not coaches that feel they have a better handle on penalty calling.

muckngrind yes ive read your posts, but now where do you say you ever have taken the officials test, wether your level 4 coaching or not is in material, do you as a coach take responsibilty for the players action on the ice, It is not the officails job to do this, they only admininster the rules of the game as they see them,
Can you answer me this what rule chnages have taken place since you last coached, do you relize that the rule chnage every two years , you odnt get those changes as a level 4 coach beacuse im one of them also, all level means is you dont have to go to clinics any longer and thus the problem, you are not aware of the changes
Your quick to blame the guys with stripes and dont mind voicing your opinion, next time yell at the coach or the concessioner or the person that has to sit next to you, which i doubt there are not a bunch

It's obvious there is no time or place to ever question a referees competence, motives or knowledge of the game. They have passed an exam on the rules of the game. Thats B.S. - there are a lot of lawyers out thier who passed the bar, but I don't know if you really want to use them. Muck clearly stated that 99% of Refs do a good job, and that he rarely says anything to the refs, and if he does it's primarily about a game getting out hand. When we stop questioning, it means we are totally satisfied, or we just don't care anymore. Referees, as coaches, and parents must be held accountable. This is not solely a youth hockey issue. How about the abuse some umpires take in 90 degree heat from some fans. We see it in every sport at every level. Like it or not the Referee is judge, and jury on the ice, and 99% are very good at their job. Just like the 99% of us who question the other 1% are not HORSES BEHINDS

Greek, I'd have to agree about the lawyer thing..

Arguing with any of the officials or lawyers you pointed out in your post has no real substance, does it?

If you were a lawyer, they may spare back and forth with you but in most cases you won't find a lawyer wanting to argue with another lawyer, unless they are opposing council and get paid to argue.

Similar instance with sporting officials. I've found myself throwing a comment out here and there from the stands but never in an effort to change the game calling practices of the officials. More to get some pent up frustration off my chest. Doesn't happen often, and I'm embarrassed when it does come busting out.

I consider myself educated on the game, but also understand the officials on the ice see a different game then the people in the stands or coaches on the bench. Complaining about missed or made calls has no value, and many times will work against the team the abuse is coming from.

Never did I say no one has the right to argue, question or complain. What I am saying is that if you feel the game calling needs to improve on certain officials, there is a right way to get that accomplished.

Most people that feel they are qualified to judge the game officials, don't have a clue what that job consists of.