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I don't understand why Jefferson does not receive the #1 overall ranking. They're undefeated. I respect and appreciate your list, but what else do these kids have to do? If a team is undefeated - with no ties - they deserve a #1 ranking in my book. Please explain or argue/discuss, whatever. I believe they are due a #1 ranking.[/quote]

See UTAH in the BCS.

Win the state tournament, then they will have the #1 ranking when it really matters. Right now strength of schedule clearly points to Edina as the top team. Look what happened to Roseau, and Edina at state last year. Edina, and Jefferson are very good teams, but there are some very good teams lurking right below them. Whoever gets hot in march is who's going to be # 1 - Overall I think Karl's list looks accurate at this point in the season.

I think the reason people have a tough time putting jefferson number 1 is that they haven't been tested at a higher level in the last few years. Edina on the other hand was at the state tournament last year, and has played and beaten a number of top teams on their schedule this year. I am not sure if this team can really compete with the top teams in the state day in and day out because i haven't seen them do that in the recent past.

I understand the strength of schedule argument, but I'm still a fan of ranking Jefferson #1. Here's why:

Section seeds are determined based upon a team's overall record. So, if the season were to end today Jefferson would receive the #1 seed in Section 2, ahead of Edina. The Hornets, despite being ranked #1 in the state, would be #2 in their section.

Furthermore, let's just say Jefferson finishes the regular season 25-0, and Edina happens to lose one more game, is Edina still #1 in the state? Because of their schedule, Edina would still have more wins against quality teams than Jefferson.

I fully agree with those that say mid-season rankings don't mean anything. They don't. They have no significance to what's most important, the state tourney.

BUT, they are for fun. And what I think is fun about naming Jefferson #1 is it puts the challenge on them to keep it up through the end of the season. It also gives the teams playing them incentive to do something special, that is, knock off the #1, undefeated team.

I thought the coaches from the section ranked the teams?

I may be wrong but if that is the case then Jefferson's 25-0 record up against a 23-2 record of Edina could swing either way.

Gr8 wrote:I thought the coaches from the section ranked the teams?

I may be wrong but if that is the case then Jefferson's 25-0 record up against a 23-2 record of Edina could swing either way.

The coaches from the sections do rank the teams and that's the way the sections are paired up. And yes, the section race for #1 will be close, but I still see Edina and Jefferson meeting at the section championship anyways.

Hockey_High09 wrote:I understand the strength of schedule argument, but I'm still a fan of ranking Jefferson #1. Here's why:

Section seeds are determined based upon a team's overall record. So, if the season were to end today Jefferson would receive the #1 seed in Section 2, ahead of Edina. The Hornets, despite being ranked #1 in the state, would be #2 in their section.

Furthermore, let's just say Jefferson finishes the regular season 25-0, and Edina happens to lose one more game, is Edina still #1 in the state? Because of their schedule, Edina would still have more wins against quality teams than Jefferson.

I fully agree with those that say mid-season rankings don't mean anything. They don't. They have no significance to what's most important, the state tourney.

BUT, they are for fun. And what I think is fun about naming Jefferson #1 is it puts the challenge on them to keep it up through the end of the season. It also gives the teams playing them incentive to do something special, that is, knock off the #1, undefeated team.

Gr8 is correct...the seedings are decided by a bunch of coaches sitting around in a back room, not records. The most important consideration they use is probably record vs. the section, but that probably won't make a difference in this case (though Jefferson will be lacking a win over AHA, which Edina has). It could probably go either way in that meeting.

But...even if Jefferson gets the top seed, that does not mean I am obligated to rank them first or anything like that. I'm still going to judge by the strength of the body of work. Section seedings often deviate from rankings like this. Case in point: two years ago Cloquet was the top seed in 7AA, but they were definitely not the favorites come sections, as Tyler Johnson was hurt. But they certainly deserved the #1 seed based on their season. Same in 5AA last year. Champlin Park got the 2 seed, but practically nobody thought they'd get by the #3, Blaine. They ended up getting upset in the quarterfinals.

I won't get into speculation as to how future losses will affect the rankings quite yet. I try to do the rankings by looking at each team's body of work anew each week, without taking the previous week's rankings into consideration. That's why there's been some odd jumping around on some of the teams in the middle of the pack, as I re-interpret original assessments. Obviously the rankings are in my head to some degree, but I try not to let those influence my view of the big picture. We'll deal with those future events when they happen.

And unless Bloomington Jefferson would like to hire me as a motivator, I'm not going to use odd criteria such as that. And even so, I would probably continue to put them at #2 and make them prove to me that they deserve #1.

Good job on the rankings. Remember everybody, these are for fun, and the debates are great because we all love high school hockey in MN. Since we have playoffs and state tournaments, it really doesn't matter who is ranked where. If Jefferson feels slighted by being ranked #2, they'll have a chance to go out and earn #1. The comparison to college football and Utah doesn't apply to these rankings, because outside of being fun for us to create, read, and debate, it doesn't make one bit of difference.

I have to hand it too the Bloomington Jefferson faithful they sure are persistent. Karl (east) I am not only asking, I am pleading with you to please place the Jaguars #1 in your next rankings. This way the rest of us will not have to sift through all these useless post by Bloomington Jefferson faithful literally begging you to make them #1.

I don't know if anyone missed it but did you hear that the Bloomington Jefferson Jaguars are undefeated!!!

I wonder how many phone calls Fox Preps have received inquiring why the Jaguars are not ranked #1 in there weekly rankings.

Again I don't know if anyone missed it but did you hear that the Bloomington Jefferson Jaguars are undefeated!!!

After all what incentive do the opposing teams have to play for unless there playing a team ranked #1 by some guy named Karl (east).

I'm not sure if anyone knows this but Bloomington Jefferson Jaguars are undefeated!!!

BodyShots wrote:I don't understand why Jefferson does not receive the #1 overall ranking. They're undefeated. I respect and appreciate your list, but what else do these kids have to do? If a team is undefeated - with no ties - they deserve a #1 ranking in my book. Please explain or argue/discuss, whatever. I believe they are due a #1 ranking.

See UTAH in the BCS.[/quote]

doesn't everyone hate the BCS?

karl(east) wrote:

Hockey_High09 wrote:I understand the strength of schedule argument, but I'm still a fan of ranking Jefferson #1. Here's why:

Section seeds are determined based upon a team's overall record. So, if the season were to end today Jefferson would receive the #1 seed in Section 2, ahead of Edina. The Hornets, despite being ranked #1 in the state, would be #2 in their section.

Furthermore, let's just say Jefferson finishes the regular season 25-0, and Edina happens to lose one more game, is Edina still #1 in the state? Because of their schedule, Edina would still have more wins against quality teams than Jefferson.

I fully agree with those that say mid-season rankings don't mean anything. They don't. They have no significance to what's most important, the state tourney.

BUT, they are for fun. And what I think is fun about naming Jefferson #1 is it puts the challenge on them to keep it up through the end of the season. It also gives the teams playing them incentive to do something special, that is, knock off the #1, undefeated team.

Gr8 is correct...the seedings are decided by a bunch of coaches sitting around in a back room, not records. The most important consideration they use is probably record vs. the section, but that probably won't make a difference in this case (though Jefferson will be lacking a win over AHA, which Edina has). It could probably go either way in that meeting.

But...even if Jefferson gets the top seed, that does not mean I am obligated to rank them first or anything like that. I'm still going to judge by the strength of the body of work. Section seedings often deviate from rankings like this. Case in point: two years ago Cloquet was the top seed in 7AA, but they were definitely not the favorites come sections, as Tyler Johnson was hurt. But they certainly deserved the #1 seed based on their season. Same in 5AA last year. Champlin Park got the 2 seed, but practically nobody thought they'd get by the #3, Blaine. They ended up getting upset in the quarterfinals.

I won't get into speculation as to how future losses will affect the rankings quite yet. I try to do the rankings by looking at each team's body of work anew each week, without taking the previous week's rankings into consideration. That's why there's been some odd jumping around on some of the teams in the middle of the pack, as I re-interpret original assessments. Obviously the rankings are in my head to some degree, but I try not to let those influence my view of the big picture. We'll deal with those future events when they happen.

And unless Bloomington Jefferson would like to hire me as a motivator, I'm not going to use odd criteria such as that. And even so, I would probably continue to put them at #2 and make them prove to me that they deserve #1.

Very good pointsKarl. My intention here was to debate so I appreciate an intelligent response. Without question, you know far more than I do about the current high school season.

I do find it funny that Blaze automatically assumes someone with the opinion that Jefferson should be ranked #1 is a Jefferson fan. This is incorrect.

My intention is to discuss/debate, and this has been a pretty good thread for that.

I've always been a proponent of ranking a team #1 if they can show up every game and win. Not every Jefferson game has been pretty, but they've found a way to win in every game so far.

Edina on the other hand is a very good team that has beaten more top teams than anyone else, but they still did not beat Hill Murray, and from a reliable source I was told they didn't play great in that game.

So, what tips the bucket for Jefferson is they've found a way to win in every game so far. Edina has not. That's my closing argument, I will now fall to the ice and let the refs take me to the bench.

You have to look at more then just wins/loses, you most certianly have to look at who those wins have been against. Edina has played a much tougher schedule then Jefferson so in my book Edina gets the #1 spot.

It will be a shame that Jefferson goes unbeaten in the regular season only to lose in the sections.

Hockey_High09 wrote: Very good pointsKarl. My intention here was to debate so I appreciate an intelligent response. Without question, you know far more than I do about the current high school season.

I do find it funny that Blaze automatically assumes someone with the opinion that Jefferson should be ranked #1 is a Jefferson fan. This is incorrect.

My intention is to discuss/debate, and this has been a pretty good thread for that.

I've always been a proponent of ranking a team #1 if they can show up every game and win. Not every Jefferson game has been pretty, but they've found a way to win in every game so far.

Edina on the other hand is a very good team that has beaten more top teams than anyone else, but they still did not beat Hill Murray, and from a reliable source I was told they didn't play great in that game.

So, what tips the bucket for Jefferson is they've found a way to win in every game so far. Edina has not. That's my closing argument, I will now fall to the ice and let the refs take me to the bench.

Sorry Hockey_High09 maybe your not a BJ faithful I'll give you that. But my post was not directed soley at you or your post. My point is that this thread was not started to debate who should be or deserves to be ranked #1. But as you can see this has been the majority of the discussion. So if your intentions are to discuss/debate who's really is or should be ranked #1 please start a new thread.

Karl (east) wrote: But...even if Jefferson gets the top seed, that does not mean I am obligated to rank them first or anything like that. I'm still going to judge by the strength of the body of work.

oops

I don't mind the debate; it tends to be pretty good on these threads in comparison to some others, and it makes me think through things, even if it doesn't change my opinion.

As for Jefferson finding a way to win every game, I'd counter that by saying that Edina has found ways to win more important games. While beating up on the rest of the Lake by 5 goals every night is impressive, will that help all that much come sections? Edina, on the other hand, has consistently proven that they're able to win closeish games (with the exception of ones against Hill-Murray...credit Lechner and Co. for that). Hence the "playing like champions" comment on original rankings. This team seems to know how to win, and teams like that are usually the ones left standing come March.

So then what some of you are saying is that the ranking should be based solely on a teams record? That's what it sounds like some of you are saying. How many of the ranked teams have 3 or more losses? I don't see St. Francis in the top 15! They have the top 2 scorers in the state! In my opinion they aren't a top 15 team based on who they have played! OK, St. Francis may not be Class AA, I'm not even sure, but LPH doesn't even have them in the top 20 either way. If you follow the NCAA rankings, Air Force at one time was 10-0 and barely cracked the top 10... if that! Probably based on thier SCHEDULE.

Is being undefeated and ranked #2 by some guy named Karl (no offense Karl) so bad? I happen to agree with Karl 100% and I have always been a "fan" of Jefferson hockey since I was a kid. At the same time I used to hate Edina. Just because that's what everyone did. I don't anymore by the way. Anyway, I guess it just seems some are biased for Jefferson or maybe just against Edina. Otherwise you are saying that the rankings should be based soley on a teams record.

http://www.minnhock.com/strength.htm

Edina's strength of schedule, according to PS2 is the toughest in the state, so there's a completely valid argument there. You could also say that Jefferson has not played the team that beat Edina (Hill), so there's no way to compare the two in that way.

Using the PS2 argument backfires as well, seeing as how Jefferson is ranked 1st there, probably due to Hill's recent plight.

I can see where Jefferson fans are frustrated with the strength of schedule argument as Edina only has to play 8 conference games, and therefore can pick 17 games to play, whereas Jefferson has to play 20 conference games, only able to pick 5 other games. Either way, it will be fun to see how this thing plays out on the ice. Lots of very good to great hockey teams out there.

DoubleDeuce wrote:So then what some of you are saying is that the ranking should be based solely on a teams record? That's what it sounds like some of you are saying. How many of the ranked teams have 3 or more losses? I don't see St. Francis in the top 15! They have the top 2 scorers in the state! In my opinion they aren't a top 15 team based on who they have played! OK, St. Francis may not be Class AA, I'm not even sure, but LPH doesn't even have them in the top 20 either way. If you follow the NCAA rankings, Air Force at one time was 10-0 and barely cracked the top 10... if that! Probably based on thier SCHEDULE.

Is being undefeated and ranked #2 by some guy named Karl (no offense Karl) so bad? I happen to agree with Karl 100% and I have always been a "fan" of Jefferson hockey since I was a kid. At the same time I used to hate Edina. Just because that's what everyone did. I don't anymore by the way. Anyway, I guess it just seems some are biased for Jefferson or maybe just against Edina. Otherwise you are saying that the rankings should be based soley on a teams record.

Hes right. Jefferson has to establish themselves to be #1 by beating the big teams. Unfortunately for them them dont get the oppritunities that Edina does, but who cares? when it comes down to it sections will tell all. At that time we will know if all this hoopla is for nothing. In my own opinion I think Jefferson is the best team in state, and I would personally rank them number 1, but there is too much speculation to put them there with their schedule.

I will call it now, Jefferson will take sections and that will settle things.

fyi, for all you jefferson fans, Jefferson only loses one top player at the end of the season (Labombard), just be patient Jefferson will be next year's #1.

gophermadman wrote:

DoubleDeuce wrote:So then what some of you are saying is that the ranking should be based solely on a teams record? That's what it sounds like some of you are saying. How many of the ranked teams have 3 or more losses? I don't see St. Francis in the top 15! They have the top 2 scorers in the state! In my opinion they aren't a top 15 team based on who they have played! OK, St. Francis may not be Class AA, I'm not even sure, but LPH doesn't even have them in the top 20 either way. If you follow the NCAA rankings, Air Force at one time was 10-0 and barely cracked the top 10... if that! Probably based on thier SCHEDULE.

Is being undefeated and ranked #2 by some guy named Karl (no offense Karl) so bad? I happen to agree with Karl 100% and I have always been a "fan" of Jefferson hockey since I was a kid. At the same time I used to hate Edina. Just because that's what everyone did. I don't anymore by the way. Anyway, I guess it just seems some are biased for Jefferson or maybe just against Edina. Otherwise you are saying that the rankings should be based soley on a teams record.

Hes right. Jefferson has to establish themselves to be #1 by beating the big teams. Unfortunately for them them dont get the oppritunities that Edina does, but who cares? when it comes down to it sections will tell all. At that time we will know if all this hoopla is for nothing. In my own opinion I think Jefferson is the best team in state, and I would personally rank them number 1, but there is too much speculation to put them there with their schedule.

I will call it now, Jefferson will take sections and that will settle things.

fyi, for all you jefferson fans, Jefferson only loses one top player at the end of the season (Labombard), just be patient Jefferson will be next year's #1.

I eluded to this earlier, but didn't elaborate enough for it to be sigificant. LPH, Strib, P. Press and Karl's rankings do not matter at all. We can all agree on that, I'm sure.

But section seeds do to some degree. They can make winning a section more difficult/easier depending on who you have to play. In Section 2, Edina and Jefferson will presumably jockey for the #1 spot, while Holy Angels finishes at #3. This means that whoever gets the #2 spot has a VERY difficult semi-final game in comparison to the #1 slotted team. So the discussion on here, while obviously just for fun, will eventually be a fairly important decision come section seeding time.

So, my intention here was to hear different opinions on this going into the final stretch of the season. Who knows, either team could drop a couple games and make the other one the clear cut #1 choice, but if things continue the way they do it'll be very interesting to see who gets the #1 seed in Section 2.

Hockey_High09 wrote:

gophermadman wrote:

DoubleDeuce wrote:So then what some of you are saying is that the ranking should be based solely on a teams record? That's what it sounds like some of you are saying. How many of the ranked teams have 3 or more losses? I don't see St. Francis in the top 15! They have the top 2 scorers in the state! In my opinion they aren't a top 15 team based on who they have played! OK, St. Francis may not be Class AA, I'm not even sure, but LPH doesn't even have them in the top 20 either way. If you follow the NCAA rankings, Air Force at one time was 10-0 and barely cracked the top 10... if that! Probably based on thier SCHEDULE.

Is being undefeated and ranked #2 by some guy named Karl (no offense Karl) so bad? I happen to agree with Karl 100% and I have always been a "fan" of Jefferson hockey since I was a kid. At the same time I used to hate Edina. Just because that's what everyone did. I don't anymore by the way. Anyway, I guess it just seems some are biased for Jefferson or maybe just against Edina. Otherwise you are saying that the rankings should be based soley on a teams record.

Hes right. Jefferson has to establish themselves to be #1 by beating the big teams. Unfortunately for them them dont get the oppritunities that Edina does, but who cares? when it comes down to it sections will tell all. At that time we will know if all this hoopla is for nothing. In my own opinion I think Jefferson is the best team in state, and I would personally rank them number 1, but there is too much speculation to put them there with their schedule.

I will call it now, Jefferson will take sections and that will settle things.

fyi, for all you jefferson fans, Jefferson only loses one top player at the end of the season (Labombard), just be patient Jefferson will be next year's #1.

I eluded to this earlier, but didn't elaborate enough for it to be sigificant. LPH, Strib, P. Press and Karl's rankings do not matter at all. We can all agree on that, I'm sure.

But section seeds do to some degree. They can make winning a section more difficult/easier depending on who you have to play. In Section 2, Edina and Jefferson will presumably jockey for the #1 spot, while Holy Angels finishes at #3. This means that whoever gets the #2 spot has a VERY difficult semi-final game in comparison to the #1 slotted team. So the discussion on here, while obviously just for fun, will eventually be a fairly important decision come section seeding time.

So, my intention here was to hear different opinions on this going into the final stretch of the season. Who knows, either team could drop a couple games and make the other one the clear cut #1 choice, but if things continue the way they do it'll be very interesting to see who gets the #1 seed in Section 2.

good point, I forgot about that. At this point the #1 seed will go to the better record, thats just how it works. If it were today Jefferson would get the #1 seed, but anything can happen. I dont see either of these teams losing anytime soon, but EP and Jefferson have another game coming up and EP is good enough to beat the jags.

This whole argument boils down to one cliche: if you wanna be the best, you've gotta beat the best. Edina has done so, Jefferson has not, so Edina get the #1 ranking.

gophermadman wrote:

DoubleDeuce wrote:So then what some of you are saying is that the ranking should be based solely on a teams record? That's what it sounds like some of you are saying. How many of the ranked teams have 3 or more losses? I don't see St. Francis in the top 15! They have the top 2 scorers in the state! In my opinion they aren't a top 15 team based on who they have played! OK, St. Francis may not be Class AA, I'm not even sure, but LPH doesn't even have them in the top 20 either way. If you follow the NCAA rankings, Air Force at one time was 10-0 and barely cracked the top 10... if that! Probably based on thier SCHEDULE.

Is being undefeated and ranked #2 by some guy named Karl (no offense Karl) so bad? I happen to agree with Karl 100% and I have always been a "fan" of Jefferson hockey since I was a kid. At the same time I used to hate Edina. Just because that's what everyone did. I don't anymore by the way. Anyway, I guess it just seems some are biased for Jefferson or maybe just against Edina. Otherwise you are saying that the rankings should be based soley on a teams record.

Hes right. Jefferson has to establish themselves to be #1 by beating the big teams. Unfortunately for them them dont get the oppritunities that Edina does, but who cares? when it comes down to it sections will tell all. At that time we will know if all this hoopla is for nothing. In my own opinion I think Jefferson is the best team in state, and I would personally rank them number 1, but there is too much speculation to put them there with their schedule.

I will call it now, Jefferson will take sections and that will settle things.

fyi, for all you jefferson fans, Jefferson only loses one top player at the end of the season (Labombard), just be patient Jefferson will be next year's #1.

You seem to be missing a very large number of quality kids that will not be with the Jags next year. They have a very skilled group of senior that are all contibuting.

Springisintheair wrote:

gophermadman wrote:

DoubleDeuce wrote:So then what some of you are saying is that the ranking should be based solely on a teams record? That's what it sounds like some of you are saying. How many of the ranked teams have 3 or more losses? I don't see St. Francis in the top 15! They have the top 2 scorers in the state! In my opinion they aren't a top 15 team based on who they have played! OK, St. Francis may not be Class AA, I'm not even sure, but LPH doesn't even have them in the top 20 either way. If you follow the NCAA rankings, Air Force at one time was 10-0 and barely cracked the top 10... if that! Probably based on thier SCHEDULE.

Is being undefeated and ranked #2 by some guy named Karl (no offense Karl) so bad? I happen to agree with Karl 100% and I have always been a "fan" of Jefferson hockey since I was a kid. At the same time I used to hate Edina. Just because that's what everyone did. I don't anymore by the way. Anyway, I guess it just seems some are biased for Jefferson or maybe just against Edina. Otherwise you are saying that the rankings should be based soley on a teams record.

Hes right. Jefferson has to establish themselves to be #1 by beating the big teams. Unfortunately for them them dont get the oppritunities that Edina does, but who cares? when it comes down to it sections will tell all. At that time we will know if all this hoopla is for nothing. In my own opinion I think Jefferson is the best team in state, and I would personally rank them number 1, but there is too much speculation to put them there with their schedule.

I will call it now, Jefferson will take sections and that will settle things.

fyi, for all you jefferson fans, Jefferson only loses one top player at the end of the season (Labombard), just be patient Jefferson will be next year's #1.

You seem to be missing a very large number of quality kids that will not be with the Jags next year. They have a very skilled group of senior that are all contibuting.

Yeah what about Siiro and Gallus their leading scorers and O'Connor in net, they lose a solid group of players including 4 guys who have been playing on varsity since the beginning of sophomore year. The Jags are still going to be good next year though if all their juniors stick around.

#1 i think depends on the outcome of Centennial @ Edina. If Edina wins they deserve #1 no doubt. If Centennial wins then Jefferson number 1

jefferson also loses their top scorer in siiro and very solid seniors knutson, gallus, and dan faust