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thanks everyone for posting. lets keep it going and i think it would be great if we all coud post well refereed games and bad refereed games. maybe it will get around we're watching and keep them a little more fair.

Hey inthestands, without posting resumes here I am betting that most of the commentators that spend time on these boards have a vast knowledge of the game either as a current or past coach, player or ref. Don't assume we don't have experience and that we don't know what we're talking about.

Question, if there are so many evaluators why aren't the results made public? And if there are evaluations being completed, what exactly is being done with them? My earlier suggestion simply asked that these guys be held accountable and not be so responsible for outcomes. I believe there is enough unbiased hockey people out there right now that could start a grass roots program of referee evaluating, all it would need is some organizing.

Taking it a step further, these evaluations can supplement whatever else is supposedly out there. Using the info, the good ones are then rewarded with section and state tourney games. Here is another thought. Why not grade them and compensate them for their efforts. Let the A's get the top tier teams and higher pay, the B's the middle tier and the C's the rest. No additional money would be needed if you pooled the money and divied it up into the three catagories. Example: If all refs now receive $100 a game it would look something like this- A refs now get $120 B refs get $100 and C refs get $80. To quote hckywtchr1, "My job is tough, your job is tough, we all get paid to do a good job or we don't have a job"!
Comments?

grlzhockeyrocks wrote:Hey inthestands, without posting resumes here I am betting that most of the commentators that spend time on these boards have a vast knowledge of the game either as a current or past coach, player or ref. Don't assume we don't have experience and that we don't know what we're talking about.

Question, if there are so many evaluators why aren't the results made public? And if there are evaluations being completed, what exactly is being done with them? My earlier suggestion simply asked that these guys be held accountable and not be so responsible for outcomes. I believe there is enough unbiased hockey people out there right now that could start a grass roots program of referee evaluating, all it would need is some organizing.

Taking it a step further, these evaluations can supplement whatever else is supposedly out there. Using the info, the good ones are then rewarded with section and state tourney games. Here is another thought. Why not grade them and compensate them for their efforts. Let the A's get the top tier teams and higher pay, the B's the middle tier and the C's the rest. No additional money would be needed if you pooled the money and divied it up into the three catagories. Example: If all refs now receive $100 a game it would look something like this- A refs now get $120 B refs get $100 and C refs get $80. To quote hckywtchr1, "My job is tough, your job is tough, we all get paid to do a good job or we don't have a job"!
Comments?

I like the pay scale idea! we have actually had a ref who was the father of a player from the same conference it was not his kids team playing but they should not be refn in the same conference as there kid plays and lets just say some of the calls were head scratchers.

hockfan1980 wrote:thanks everyone for posting. lets keep it going and i think it would be great if we all coud post well refereed games and bad refereed games. maybe it will get around we're watching and keep them a little more fair.

There are good refs and bad refs, good refs that have bad days and bad refs that have good days. I can think of some refs that I don't like seeing on the ice when its time to play (one in particular in which we lose everytime this ref is on the ice) but really these aren't highly paid professionals so there are going to be questionable calls (even in the NHL there are questionable calls). I think the referees are part of the landscape and you really can't blame them for a loss. I, like Melvin, really hate it when a smaller or weaker girl falls down and the bigger or stronger girl gets a penalty but it happens. I also hate the fact that some refs don't seem to know the difference between permissible contact and checking but it happens. Unlike some of my brethren I believe hooking is not called enough. About 5 or so years ago hockey at all levels tried to eliminate hooking to open up the game more and give skilled players the advantage over lesser skilled players that used hooking to slow down the more skilled player. I think that when in doubt call the hook. The more you call it the less often players will use hooking to their advantage and it will be better for the game in the long run.

And lastly, a referee can have an effect on a close game so I suggest making sure that the game isn't close to avoid losing on a bad call or two. Regardless, over the course of the season the calls tend to even out. We can't take out our frustrations on the refs because if we do then we will have a hard time keeping refs.

Hey inthestands, without posting resumes here I am betting that most of the commentators that spend time on these boards have a vast knowledge of the game either as a current or past coach, player or ref. Don't assume we don't have experience and that we don't know what we're talking about.

With the comments here, that assumption is pretty strong.

Taking it a step further, these evaluations can supplement whatever else is supposedly out there. Using the info, the good ones are then rewarded with section and state tourney games.

This is the current process, but the evaluations are always under scrutiny. Not a bad idea to make the evaluations public. Maybe those could be posted next to all of your job performance reviews.. With that, on ice officials could take a look at the performance of those that critique there efforts working games. Seems fair, doesn't it?

I think "inthestands" is from "ontheice".

First, what is the point of conducting evaluations if nothing gets done with them and they are "always under scrutiny"? Guys, this is not rocket science, I am talking about a supplemental tool that would help the refs be more consistant and less controlling. It doesn't have to read that they took too many potty breaks for crying out loud!

Secondly, I take pride in my work and would be happy to have what ever ref I evaluate see my reviews which would reflect that. I would hope the referee would say the same.

I think "inthestands" is from "ontheice".

Been on the ice, and behind the bench as well having a number of children go through the youth program and finish up in high school.

grlzhockeyrocks, we are not that far off in opinions.

The behavior of "some" parents at hockey games is embarrassing to me, especially when considering most are uneducated.

The evaluating system for officials is sound. The software for game selection is decent. The human factor is the rating that goes into the software for that game selection. Lot's of grey area, but still a good process.

I researched this a bit to understand what goes into putting officials on the ice. A few years back this was only used in high school scheduling, but now it's moved into the youth levels. There is much more youth game evaluating today, than say even 5 years ago.

The reason we don't see more younger officials is the unrealistic expectation placed by the people around them at the rink. Coaches like to "work" the younger people, and most fans don't discriminate based on age.

Players, coaches and officials all have ups and downs. I told my kids there was never a ref that scored a goal to loose the game for them. It's difficult for some to understand, but even the worst official will not stop a loosing team from scoring the winning goal. At times it may seem like they put up road blocks to the net, but if they do this purposely sooner or later they will be dealt with. No doubt the bad ones are never taken care of soon enough...

inthestands wrote:I think "inthestands" is from "ontheice".

Been on the ice, and behind the bench as well having a number of children go through the youth program and finish up in high school.

grlzhockeyrocks, we are not that far off in opinions.

The behavior of "some" parents at hockey games is embarrassing to me, especially when considering most are uneducated.

The evaluating system for officials is sound. The software for game selection is decent. The human factor is the rating that goes into the software for that game selection. Lot's of grey area, but still a good process.

I researched this a bit to understand what goes into putting officials on the ice. A few years back this was only used in high school scheduling, but now it's moved into the youth levels. There is much more youth game evaluating today, than say even 5 years ago.

The reason we don't see more younger officials is the unrealistic expectation placed by the people around them at the rink. Coaches like to "work" the younger people, and most fans don't discriminate based on age.

Players, coaches and officials all have ups and downs. I told my kids there was never a ref that scored a goal to loose the game for them. It's difficult for some to understand, but even the worst official will not stop a loosing team from scoring the winning goal. At times it may seem like they put up road blocks to the net, but if they do this purposely sooner or later they will be dealt with. No doubt the bad ones are never taken care of soon enough...

I can see why younger kids would not want to ref or possibly decide to quit, I was at the rink several years ago and caught the end of a squirt game a young man (teenager maybe 15-17) Refereeing a game, when one of the parents after the game was in his face threatening him, telling him he cost his son the game and that he was going to kick his Hind-end (I put it nicer than he did) to the kid. Everyone just kind of stood around and was shocked and the man just continued to threaten him I finally walked over to the man and told him that, was enough and he needed to leave! And to my surprise he did without saying a word to me. I must have had that Mother Bear look on my face. But for what it is worth I am also not without fault, when it comes to being disappointed in some calls. I think most of the time it is just a Knee-jerk reaction.

I have noticed that the majority of games over the past several years have gotten a lot more physical than in the past (my daughter has been playing for 5 years). This would be regular season games only, not including play offs or tournaments. Why have they become this way?

My other concern is the consistancy, or lack there of, within each period of play. I have been to MANY games where I keep questioning if different refs are on the ice at the begining of each period. The inconsistency within the game itself is horrible. Yes, part of it, in my opinion, depends on the actual "score" of the game or possibly the number of one-sided penalties that are called (oh, we need to call a few more on the other team now kind of thinking). I am merely a fan/parent and not a ref. However, even I observe a LOT of bad calls, missed calls, shake the head calls, etc.

The burning question is and will always be: What can be done to improve the system? I wish I had my crystal ball out to provide such an answer but I don't at the moment.

I have noticed that the majority of games over the past several years have gotten a lot more physical than in the past

Opinion- girls hockey has evolved quite a lot over the past 10 or so years. The leagues, players and coaches have defined a distinct difference between body contact, and body checking. Penalties called for checking in girls hockey have much more to do with intent now than in the past.

Players are fighting harder to win races to the puck, and that creates body contact. As long as the shoulders don't drop, or the hands don't come high, that contact has been allowed from what I can see. My daughter has been on the recieving end of some of the "contact". Each game is a learning experience, and the teams need to allow for some varience in how it's called.

Our opinion of a bad or a missed call, may not share all the same information as the on ice official has to work with. From experience of both, when "in the stands" I'm watching something completely different from what is important while on the ice. I am also merely a parent/fan, and in addition have watched a couple of our kids learn the trade of being an on ice official. Gives a much wider perspective of what actually happens during a hockey game at ice level.

My other concern is the consistancy, or lack there of, within each period of play. That's a tuff one. There would have to be a way to measure consistency of play, since that defines what the calls are. One thing is certain, each game is going to be played different than the last. Each game will be called different than the last. The gap between games is something both sides of the equation constantly work on to improve and lessen those gaps.

Can any refs answer this question? I saw in another thread about the WBL girls and checking penalties that are along the boards or from behind. I have witnessed two thundering hits from behind (clearly) that drove the player body 1st in one instance and head 1st the second time in the last 2 weeks. Both times 2 minute penalty is called, no 10 minute with it. In the second hit the checking player extend her arms cross-checking her into the boards.
She got up quickly but she was lucky it didn't do serious damage. When are the refs going to protect the players as it seems the coaches and players can't police themselves.

Can any refs answer this question?

Anyone not at the game, or wearing a striped sweater can't realistically answer that. It is disheartening when someone decides to call a lesser penalty for one reason or another when it's clearly a check from behind.

I will say the view at ice level is much different from what fans see in the seats above. The on ice officials want everything as safe as possible for the players.

Anyone seeing something different should be talking with the coaches for their opinions or writing a letter of complaint to their school if you feel strongly that safety is at issue. It's easy for them to delve into game details if they see fit.

I mentioned a thundering!!! hit. You could hear it not only see them. The teams' coaches did both times question the referees calls, to no avail. I to have coached Girls HS hockey. I have asked a referee to give one of my players a 5 and 10 as I saw her spear an opponent. The referee was only calling a hook for 2 minutes. My player later became an All-Stater/ All-Metro and played in 2 state tourneys. She got the message.

Knight7 wrote:I mentioned a thundering!!! hit. You could hear it not only see them. The teams' coaches did both times question the referees calls, to no avail. I to have coached Girls HS hockey. I have asked a referee to give one of my players a 5 and 10 as I saw her spear an opponent. The referee was only calling a hook for 2 minutes. My player later became an All-Stater/ All-Metro and played in 2 state tourneys. She got the message.

Wish there were more like you out there, and more officials that had an open ear to reasonable coaching requests.

WBL vs Cloquet. Refs were very good let them play and only called the obvious.

In the Stands,
I respect your opinion, and your knowledge of the game. Like you, I have watched a lot of hockey, I have seen it bring out the best of people, and unfortunately, the worst.
A terribly bad habit that I am seeing more and more of, is laziness on the officials end of things. Many calls are missed simply by the official being too lazy to make an attempt to be in the correct position. Is this the beginning of a geriatric officiating association, or the effect of not having younger officials due to over zealous parents?

TTT, sounds like we've seen some of the same games..? Or maybe that kind of behavior happens at many different hockey games.

Your accessment can be correct on both sides of that coin. As with anything, we see a variety of ages, sizes, and abilities in officiating. Some are our of shape, too old, too young, inexperienced, too experienced and so on down the line... and there are also some great officials that work on their game calling and spend a lot of time and effort getting better.

One of the hurdles we all face is, lack of younger officials coming into the officiating side of things and staying long term. Each year there are many new officials getting into reffing, and each year more than 50% of those new officials do not return.

There are a number of reasons, but if you see the start up expense an official has and compare that to the number of games they can do the first few seasons as a "rookie" those numbers don't come out so well.

Throw in some less than stellar experiences with players, fans and coaches along those early years, and we have a recipe for lack of up and coming new talent. That means the "older" generation have to stay around longer, maybe too long and work games that could be out of their ability range.

What's the fix? Mentoring new officials is a great start, and reasonable numbers of evaluations are also good practices. From there it's a crap shoot so to speak. It's difficult educating everyone in regards to what could happen if the local districts don't see new talent coming into officiating.

Stands,
Yep, we've seen the games....and even some hockey games!

Part of the point I was trying to make, is the impression that the out of position, lack of hustle official leaves, is not good for the game. I realize that it is fairly easy to make the off sides call deep in the zone, but coaches, fans, and players, aren't there for the easy answer. They expect more, and want more from the professional(s) on the ice.

the impression that the out of position, lack of hustle official leaves, is not good for the game.

agreed.

Looking for any input on other's that have been to games in Silver Bay. Every year that we play on their home ice, the officiating has been AWFUL no matter who's got the "stripes" on. We "used" to have two refs that seemed to be there each year and I always believed that they each needed a pair of glasses and a rule book. However, the last meeting, we had two different refs. Unfortunately, they weren't much better.

I am a parent and not a ref and I know that everyone sees things different depending on where they are in the arena. HOWEVER, we have a parent that is a ref and he, at certain games, has had to "sit" on his hands and "tape" his mouth (figuratively speaking).

I have to agree with a few other's comments about the "obvious" infractions that EVERYONE can see (or hear in some cases) except the refs. What's up with that? I also love when the coach see something and they stick that arm straight up and gee.... All of a sudden the ref says, "oh yea, I saw that one" and they call a penalty. Simon says......

I also love when the coach see something and they stick that arm straight up and gee.... All of a sudden the ref says, "oh yea, I saw that one" and they call a penalty. Simon says......

So if two people see the same thing, both think it's a penalty and the referee calls it, that's a bad thing?

These are scenario's that any official has to have enough confidence in their game calling, not to let the coaching influence them. No question, when the coaches arm goes up, then the officials are goes up, it looks bad. Doesn't always have to mean it's wrong.

It's unfortunate you have to suffer through poor game calling over and over again. That should be able to get the appropriate attention if the school or local district looks into things.

I think what he's saying is the ref doesn't see it. But when the coach yells or put's his hand up then it's a penalty. I have seen many instances where a coach will dictate calls. Some are very good at it. In our Centennial game. Refs called a goal and the coach made them change their minds. On a judgement call With out intant replay I think that's terrible.

inthestands wrote:TTT, sounds like we've seen some of the same games..? Or maybe that kind of behavior happens at many different hockey games.

Your accessment can be correct on both sides of that coin. As with anything, we see a variety of ages, sizes, and abilities in officiating. Some are our of shape, too old, too young, inexperienced, too experienced and so on down the line... and there are also some great officials that work on their game calling and spend a lot of time and effort getting better.

One of the hurdles we all face is, lack of younger officials coming into the officiating side of things and staying long term. Each year there are many new officials getting into reffing, and each year more than 50% of those new officials do not return.

There are a number of reasons, but if you see the start up expense an official has and compare that to the number of games they can do the first few seasons as a "rookie" those numbers don't come out so well.

Throw in some less than stellar experiences with players, fans and coaches along those early years, and we have a recipe for lack of up and coming new talent. That means the "older" generation have to stay around longer, maybe too long and work games that could be out of their ability range.

What's the fix? Mentoring new officials is a great start, and reasonable numbers of evaluations are also good practices. From there it's a crap shoot so to speak. It's difficult educating everyone in regards to what could happen if the local districts don't see new talent coming into officiating.

It's kind of ironic. . . we place our brand new referees in the same games that we place our brand new coaches. . .squirts and 10U. These new coaches haven't got enough experience to know when to calmly ask about a call (that could work to their advantage later), instead think they can "work" the ref by yelling and screaming. Either no one has told them, or they have forgotten, that refs are made through experience, just like players. We don't tolerate abuse of our young players by these coaches, why do associations and parents tolerate abuse of young officials by these same coaches? For $25 a game, I don't even take these any more. The hassle factor is not worth it. When you get to more upper levels, the coaches know when and how to question a call and likely get later results.

You also are correct about the costs. My son officiates and had to upgrade his equipment this year due to growth. It cost him 5 games to recoup his costs.

Bottom line, please don't forget that everyone at the younger levels (players, officials, and coaches) are all learning their skills. You have a right to expect an official to work hard. If they don't please let the association head ref know about it. You don't have a right to heap abuse on him or her!!

Melvin44 wrote:I think what he's saying is the ref doesn't see it. But when the coach yells or put's his hand up then it's a penalty. I have seen many instances where a coach will dictate calls. Some are very good at it. In our Centennial game. Refs called a goal and the coach made them change their minds. On a judgement call With out intant replay I think that's terrible.

Coaches are there to coach, officials are there to officiate. If a coach continues to "officiate" the game from the bench, you politely tell the coach to refrain from any further gestures/calls. The next one will be a "bench minor", the second one will put the coach on the bus. It works, been there and done it many times.

ref101 wrote:

Melvin44 wrote:I think what he's saying is the ref doesn't see it. But when the coach yells or put's his hand up then it's a penalty. I have seen many instances where a coach will dictate calls. Some are very good at it. In our Centennial game. Refs called a goal and the coach made them change their minds. On a judgement call With out intant replay I think that's terrible.

Coaches are there to coach, officials are there to officiate. If a coach continues to "officiate" the game from the bench, you politely tell the coach to refrain from any further gestures/calls. The next one will be a "bench minor", the second one will put the coach on the bus. It works, been there and done it many times.

I agree 100% but I've seen at least 10 times this year where referee's were infuenced by coaches or fans. I wish you could ref all our games.