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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:35 am
by auld_skool
Bullseye, just so you know the transfer process has always been that way. It's never been open enrollment because both schools are the same district. I don't know it for a fact but I assume the same would be true in Lakeville maybe.
The fact that it's closed for the High Schools right now might be due to trying to keep numbers balanced, not sure. I would assume it will be looked at every year.
Believe it or not it goes the other way at times too. The year after the Kennedy girls won the state championship in basketball, Kennedy had a bunch of girls from all over, including Jefferson transfer in. One side effect of that was quite a few of them went out for volleyball that fall, and some resident girls didn't make the team in their senior year.
To your main point, I assume merging the 2 schools would have to be OK with people like the Superintendent and the School Board at a minimum. Merging the youth programs could be done tomorrow, if, well, you know.
On a non hockey note, I have personal experience with both high schools. In my opinion Kennedy is far superior academically.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:41 am
by spin-o-rama
Bullseye wrote:Well if Bloomington Public Schools sticks to their guns neither coach will have to worry about kids switching schools, unless they move to another house. I was just informed of the new rule of transferring to the other High School. As of 1/12/12 they no longer will allow kids to transfer to Jefferson if their home school is Kennedy. Lets see how long this last.
In-District Transfer
Transfers within Bloomington
Parents/guardians who live in Bloomington and would like their student to attend a school other than the student’s school of residence the following year may complete an Intra-District transfer request. (See Policy 503.2 Student Assignment/ Transfers on the School Board Policies & Regulations web page.)
Requests must be submitted during the enrollment dates listed below for each grade level, and should be submitted online. The online request website will not be open to submissions outside of these dates. If you are unable to complete the request online, please contact your current school office for assistance. You can also fill out and submit a paper copy to your school: Elementary Paper Copy and Secondary Paper Copy.
Parents/guardians are encouraged to submit requests early in the process. Transfers will be subject to available space and limited to ensure enrollment balance among the schools. Upon receipt of the request, you will be sent an e-mail that will indicate when to expect action on the request.
If you have any questions, please contact your current school principal.
Transfer Request Dates
Grades 9-12
November 1, 2011 – August 24, 2012
Please note: As of Jan. 12, all transfer requests from Kennedy to Jefferson high school have been closed.
Now with this said, how do other programs that have merged or are merged do it. Anyone from Cooper / Armstrong, Chaska / Chan. or any others that could tell how it is going or how it works.
It will be quite interesting what will happen if this continues and lets say neither HS team is ever competitive again. With this, and truthfully this is how it should be, (no transfers) what is stopping a merger. BAHA is already set up, they can now run the Youth Program for the betterment of the Community. Let's get Hockey and the kids back in Bloomington
I take it to mean that the available spots at Jefferson were filled for this transfer period, not that it was a permanent closure for future years.
Anyone know more?
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:04 am
by auld_skool
spin, I take it the same way.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:22 pm
by Defensive Zone
Night Train wrote:A single youth association would help attract and retain more players. The point about more kids playing at the appropriate level is an important one. More kids will have fun and success by playing at the right level. By growing the single association both high schools would get more and better players in the future. Long term you'd like to avoid the single high school team but it will take 3-4 years as a single youth association to determine the HS future.
Are the girls already merged? Is it working well for them?
Good point Train. I was at Woodbury the other day and notice that they have one association feeding into two high schools. I wonder how that is working?
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:16 pm
by Night Train
I think it gets tricky in Woodbury as they have 2 youth associations (Woodbury and Cottage Grove) and three high schools (Woodbury, Park and East Ridge).
Back to Bloomington though. Obviously, recruiting 5 and 6 year olds is the only solution. But, when recruiting all neighborhoods need the same effort or all the new players will come from one side of town or the other. Each elementary school needs a pro-active recruiting effort or you'll have 15 players at one school and 3 from another. Each corner of the community and every school need an organized, pro-active, recruiting effort. With more players comes more revenue, more and better coaches and volunteers and, long term, better high school teams.
Saw an interesting Bantam A score.
Kennedy 2
Eden Prairie 2
That is awesome!
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:25 pm
by Outside Voice
There are plenty of examples of single programs feeding up to multiple high-schools. It's doable. The high-school programs don't need to merge to pull it off. Old-time Bloomington people need to embrace it. The success of the neutral Bloomington LAX program is part of the reasons Bloomington families are re-thinking the structure of the youth hockey programs. A larger pool of kids means they're more likely to play at the right level, more likely to develop better as individuals, more likely to have success as a team and way more likely to have fun. And ultimately it all adds up to stronger high-school programs for both sides of town.
There are challenges, but they can be resolved:
- Need neutral Bloomington branding like LAX (now known as Bloomington Bears)
- Merger needs to be driven by folks respected and trusted by both sides of town
- Need to determine how to manage ongoing "tampering" from high-school (closing transfers helps, but likely not permanent)
- Need bullet-proof processes to ensure fair representation from both sides of town on the board, coaching decision, player selection, etc.
Biggest roadblocks will be convincing Kennedy that they won't get steamrolled by Jefferson in a combo program, which to be fair, is a realistic concern. The other will be convincing Jefferson to give up their Jaguar identity, which to be fair, does have a great deal of equity.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:45 pm
by Defensive Zone
Night Train wrote:I think it gets tricky in Woodbury as they have 2 youth associations (Woodbury and Cottage Grove) and three high schools (Woodbury, Park and East Ridge).
Back to Bloomington though. Obviously, recruiting 5 and 6 year olds is the only solution. But, when recruiting all neighborhoods need the same effort or all the new players will come from one side of town or the other. Each elementary school needs a pro-active recruiting effort or you'll have 15 players at one school and 3 from another. Each corner of the community and every school need an organized, pro-active, recruiting effort. With more players comes more revenue, more and better coaches and volunteers and, long term, better high school teams.
Saw an interesting Bantam A score.
Kennedy 2
Eden Prairie 2
That is awesome!
Train, I guess I didn’t explain myself enough...sorry. Yes, two associations, but two separate cities with two separate school districts. I do not know if CG feeds into WB and or the other way around. I do know that WB's association feeds into WB and ER high school only. Another example is the Apple Valley school district. One school district, two high schools (AV and Eastview), with two separate associations. As for numbers, I think AV is declining a little. I have no idea if the kids can transfer to one association or not.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:09 pm
by wingnuts
Outside Voice wrote:There are plenty of examples of single programs feeding up to multiple high-schools. It's doable. The high-school programs don't need to merge to pull it off. Old-time Bloomington people need to embrace it. The success of the neutral Bloomington LAX program is part of the reasons Bloomington families are re-thinking the structure of the youth hockey programs. A larger pool of kids means they're more likely to play at the right level, more likely to develop better as individuals, more likely to have success as a team and way more likely to have fun. And ultimately it all adds up to stronger high-school programs for both sides of town.
There are challenges, but they can be resolved:
- Need neutral Bloomington branding like LAX (now known as Bloomington Bears)
- Merger needs to be driven by folks respected and trusted by both sides of town
- Need to determine how to manage ongoing "tampering" from high-school (closing transfers helps, but likely not permanent)
- Need bullet-proof processes to ensure fair representation from both sides of town on the board, coaching decision, player selection, etc.
Biggest roadblocks will be convincing Kennedy that they won't get steamrolled by Jefferson in a combo program, which to be fair, is a realistic concern. The other will be convincing Jefferson to give up their Jaguar identity, which to be fair, does have a great deal of equity.
So how does the process get started?
I for one think that the way to make Bloomington Hockey better would be to combine the youth programs. As long as each high school maintains a hockey team, you wouldn't have to deal with the Jaguar or Eagle name. Call the youth teams the Bears and be done with it. Combining the programs would create instant competitiveness amongst the youth hockey players. Right now as it stands, in both programs, assuming that there are enough "A" players at each level (which is NOT the case) there is not incentive for the "A" player to get any better. There are not enough kids to push the top kids to get better. The heart of the problem is recruiting the 5-6 year olds to try hockey in the first place. And I do believe that you need to recruit equally among the elementary schools.
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:17 pm
by woodley
auld_skool wrote:On a non hockey note, I have personal experience with both high schools. In my opinion Kennedy is far superior academically.
Going to seriously disagree with you here. . . .Jefferson had 4 national merit finalists last year. . . I'm not sure if Kennedy had any!!
Bloomington hockey
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:40 am
by hocnut
I cant believe that with enrollments of 1543 (Jefferson) and 1275 (Kennedy) that this is even being discussed. Your schools are massive I think the question that Bloomington needs to ask themselves is, why aren't kids going out for hockey? Anyone wondering why small communities ie Grand Rapids, Roseau, Warroad can be so competitive with numbers that aren't even close to what you have in Bloomington. It isn't that long ago that Jefferson was in the show, ask yourselves - what happened??? I wish Bloomington all the best the State of Hockey misses your presence each and every March.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:59 am
by auld_skool
woodley wrote:auld_skool wrote:On a non hockey note, I have personal experience with both high schools. In my opinion Kennedy is far superior academically.
Going to seriously disagree with you here. . . .Jefferson had 4 national merit finalists last year. . . I'm not sure if Kennedy had any!!
I see your point, believe me. I was referring to just your "average" students. In my experience JFK does a better job helping them. Obviously it's going to be a matter of definition. Sorry to go off topic.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:08 pm
by Irish
Don't combine! If people want to combine the youth program then winning becomes more important than development. Why not field two A teams at every level?
Is winning more important than the opportunity to play on an A team and developing your skills? FYI, neither Jefferson or Kennedy will be winning any state tournaments to soon............
I heard there would be three Kennedy kids that would make the Jefferson PWA team. So that leaves Qty: 13 kids that are currently playing higher level hockey to play on B1 or B2 teams. How is this better? I would rather have my son play up againstand with better players.
To me it sounds as if the Kennedy program is tired of losing. People need to look at the opportunity the kids are getting to play at a higher level. Winning isn't everything.........
Keep in mind there are only so many top programs in the state. If you compare Kennedy to the entire state Kennedy doesn't look that bad. If you compare Kennedy to other D6 teams they don't look that good. Jefferson isn't exactly beating everyone either. Their teams have slowly been declining in the rankings.
Be patient!
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:32 pm
by keepurheadup
Irish wrote:Don't combine! If people want to combine the youth program then winning becomes more important than development. Why not field two A teams at every level?
Is winning more important than the opportunity to play on an A team and developing your skills? FYI, neither Jefferson or Kennedy will be winning any state tournaments to soon............
I heard there would be three Kennedy kids that would make the Jefferson PWA team. So that leaves Qty: 13 kids that are currently playing higher level hockey to play on B1 or B2 teams. How is this better? I would rather have my son play up againstand with better players.
To me it sounds as if the Kennedy program is tired of losing. People need to look at the opportunity the kids are getting to play at a higher level. Winning isn't everything.........
Keep in mind there are only so many top programs in the state. If you compare Kennedy to the entire state Kennedy doesn't look that bad. If you compare Kennedy to other D6 teams they don't look that good. Jefferson isn't exactly beating everyone either. Their teams have slowly been declining in the rankings.
Be patient!
B1 in D6 is like A in most other districts. So if what you heard is correct, then those 13 players playing on a B1 team might be much better off. Development wise, it might be better for them as well.
So your opinion is that by having your kid play on an "A" team that gets beat nearly all the time is better development wise for them than playing on a B1 team that's .500?
OMG and MPLS seem to have some success with their combined programs.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:47 pm
by Irish
keepurheadup wrote:Irish wrote:Don't combine! If people want to combine the youth program then winning becomes more important than development. Why not field two A teams at every level?
Is winning more important than the opportunity to play on an A team and developing your skills? FYI, neither Jefferson or Kennedy will be winning any state tournaments to soon............
I heard there would be three Kennedy kids that would make the Jefferson PWA team. So that leaves Qty: 13 kids that are currently playing higher level hockey to play on B1 or B2 teams. How is this better? I would rather have my son play up againstand with better players.
To me it sounds as if the Kennedy program is tired of losing. People need to look at the opportunity the kids are getting to play at a higher level. Winning isn't everything.........
Keep in mind there are only so many top programs in the state. If you compare Kennedy to the entire state Kennedy doesn't look that bad. If you compare Kennedy to other D6 teams they don't look that good. Jefferson isn't exactly beating everyone either. Their teams have slowly been declining in the rankings.
Be patient!
B1 in D6 is like A in most other districts. So if what you heard is correct, then those 13 players playing on a B1 team might be much better off. Development wise, it might be better for them as well.
So your opinion is that by having your kid play on an "A" team that gets beat nearly all the time is better development wise for them than playing on a B1 team that's .500?
OMG and MPLS seem to have some success with their combined programs.
You are correct. Both OMG and Minneapolis are doing good. Once again. Is your goal to win or develop? The kids will develop in B1's too.
Both Kennedy and Jefferson should have separate programs. It gives more kids an opportunity to play with and against better competition. Why not have each program offer PWA and PWB1 teams?
I also like that fact that Wayzata offers two PWA teams. I don't see these kids suffering in any way. In fact the teams are pretty good. I like the fact that 32 kids get an opportunity to play PWA in Wayzata. In the long run Wayzata will benefit even more. I applaud Wayzata for offering two programs.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:35 pm
by wingnuts
Irish wrote:keepurheadup wrote:Irish wrote:Don't combine! If people want to combine the youth program then winning becomes more important than development. Why not field two A teams at every level?
Is winning more important than the opportunity to play on an A team and developing your skills? FYI, neither Jefferson or Kennedy will be winning any state tournaments to soon............
I heard there would be three Kennedy kids that would make the Jefferson PWA team. So that leaves Qty: 13 kids that are currently playing higher level hockey to play on B1 or B2 teams. How is this better? I would rather have my son play up againstand with better players.
To me it sounds as if the Kennedy program is tired of losing. People need to look at the opportunity the kids are getting to play at a higher level. Winning isn't everything.........
Keep in mind there are only so many top programs in the state. If you compare Kennedy to the entire state Kennedy doesn't look that bad. If you compare Kennedy to other D6 teams they don't look that good. Jefferson isn't exactly beating everyone either. Their teams have slowly been declining in the rankings.
Be patient!
B1 in D6 is like A in most other districts. So if what you heard is correct, then those 13 players playing on a B1 team might be much better off. Development wise, it might be better for them as well.
So your opinion is that by having your kid play on an "A" team that gets beat nearly all the time is better development wise for them than playing on a B1 team that's .500?
OMG and MPLS seem to have some success with their combined programs.
You are correct. Both OMG and Minneapolis are doing good. Once again. Is your goal to win or develop? The kids will develop in B1's too.
Both Kennedy and Jefferson should have separate programs. It gives more kids an opportunity to play with and against better competition.
Why not have each program offer PWA and PWB1 teams?
I also like that fact that Wayzata offers two PWA teams. I don't see these kids suffering in any way. In fact the teams are pretty good. I like the fact that 32 kids get an opportunity to play PWA in Wayzata. In the long run Wayzata will benefit even more. I applaud Wayzata for offering two programs.
Neither program has enough talent to field both A and B1 teams. It is dangerous to put a kid in a level that they cannot handle. Plus players will have more fun playing at levels that will be at the same level as there skill. They will enjoy the game more, which is the point anyway. Are we trying to develop NHL players or are we trying to introduce a sport that they can enjoy and play the rest of their lives? It's a fine line.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:48 am
by auld_skool
Irish wrote:Don't combine! If people want to combine the youth program then winning becomes more important than development. Why not field two A teams at every level?
Is winning more important than the opportunity to play on an A team and developing your skills? FYI, neither Jefferson or Kennedy will be winning any state tournaments to soon............
I heard there would be three Kennedy kids that would make the Jefferson PWA team. So that leaves Qty: 13 kids that are currently playing higher level hockey to play on B1 or B2 teams. How is this better? I would rather have my son play up againstand with better players.
To me it sounds as if the Kennedy program is tired of losing. People need to look at the opportunity the kids are getting to play at a higher level. Winning isn't everything.........
Keep in mind there are only so many top programs in the state. If you compare Kennedy to the entire state Kennedy doesn't look that bad. If you compare Kennedy to other D6 teams they don't look that good. Jefferson isn't exactly beating everyone either. Their teams have slowly been declining in the rankings.
Be patient!
This all comes down to how you define development or even more importantly what you think is the best way to develop hockey players. I for one think games do the LEAST for development, so I don't see which team a kid plays on in the winter has any bearing on his or her development.
Bloomington has maybe the best example of this in Minnesota. Erik Johnson, the only Minnesota kid ever to be drafted number one, didn't make the Squirt A team his first year at Jefferson. As a matter of fact, the guy running the Minnesota Blades at the time told his coach to get him off the team. Needless to say, things worked out OK for him. Too many people think being on an A team somehow makes better players and, IMO, it's just not true.
In the case of Bloomington, the advantages from combining far outweigh any negatives, including less A teams.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:20 pm
by observer
The whole thing is based on recruiting 4-5-6 year olds.
Recruiting is made easier when more teams are doing well because they're playing at the right level. Development is better when players are playing with other players with similar ability which makes for more fun and successful seasons. A single youth association in Bloomington would solve a lot of their current problems. It would make for a stronger single association all pulling together instead of competing against each other.
Remember, youth associations develop youth players. Where they go to high school is a decision made after their 8th grade hockey season.
More youth players equals a better chance for both Bloomington high schools to suceed in the future.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:40 pm
by auld_skool
observer wrote:The whole thing is based on recruiting 4-5-6 year olds.
Recruiting is made easier when more teams are doing well because they're playing at the right level. Development is better when players are playing with other players with similar ability which makes for more fun and successful seasons. A single youth association in Bloomington would solve a lot of their current problems. It would make for a stronger single association all pulling together instead of competing against each other.
Remember, youth associations develop youth players. Where they go to high school is a decision made after their 8th grade hockey season.
More youth players equals a better chance for both Bloomington high schools to suceed in the future.
Well said observer. I agree 100%.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:47 pm
by wingnuts
auld_skool wrote:observer wrote:The whole thing is based on recruiting 4-5-6 year olds.
Recruiting is made easier when more teams are doing well because they're playing at the right level. Development is better when players are playing with other players with similar ability which makes for more fun and successful seasons. A single youth association in Bloomington would solve a lot of their current problems. It would make for a stronger single association all pulling together instead of competing against each other.
Remember, youth associations develop youth players. Where they go to high school is a decision made after their 8th grade hockey season.
More youth players equals a better chance for both Bloomington high schools to suceed in the future.
Well said observer. I agree 100%.
So how do make this happen instead of talking about it on a message board?
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:36 pm
by auld_skool
To quote Hamlet: "ay, there's the rub"
A start would be to attend both Association meetings with a few like minded people and present the concept. You'll hear some agreements and also a few objections. I'd consider going myself, actually.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:50 pm
by observer
The two Presidents need to agree and then get their two Boards on board. Merging youth associations is a longer process but co-oping the two is one that can be accomplished for fall 2012. It will create tremendous fresh energy and enthusiasm. Everyone pulling together and the club will grow better combined. Someone has mentioned successful baseball, soccer and lacrosse clubs in Bloomington which are all models to look at.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:48 pm
by Irish
Let me ask. Who benefits more if they do combine? Jefferson or Kennedy?
Which program is pushing more to combine? Jefferson or Kennedy?
What is the logic behind combining the programs? Let's hope its not about winning.
Jefferson is already competitive in D6.
Kennedy is a weaker program but if you compare Kennedy to every program in the state they're better than majority of programs.
Why do people want to combine the programs?
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:59 pm
by auld_skool
Irish wrote:Let me ask. Who benefits more if they do combine? Jefferson or Kennedy?
Which program is pushing more to combine? Jefferson or Kennedy?
What is the logic behind combining the programs? Let's hope its not about winning.
Jefferson is already competitive in D6.
Kennedy is a weaker program but if you compare Kennedy to every program in the state they're better than majority of programs.
Why do people want to combine the programs?
The KIDS of Bloomington are the ones that will benefit. This isn't about which side of town you're in. If you don't live there it would take a bit to explain, but a lot of great reasons are already given in this thread. And there are more.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:06 pm
by wingnuts
Irish wrote:Let me ask. Who benefits more if they do combine? Jefferson or Kennedy?
Which program is pushing more to combine? Jefferson or Kennedy?
What is the logic behind combining the programs? Let's hope its not about winning.
Jefferson is already competitive in D6.
Kennedy is a weaker program but if you compare Kennedy to every program in the state they're better than majority of programs.
Why do people want to combine the programs?
It's not about what's best for Jefferson or Kennedy. It's about what's best for Hockey in Bloomington. It can't be about anything else but that.
Do your homework, because Jefferson is no longer competitive in D6. Look at all the records of the Jefferson Youth teams. I'm not sure there is one team within the program that has an above .500 record in the conference. To me that is not competitive.
If the kids continue to get beat, they will lose interest and quit. Eventually (which is already happening in Bloomington) kids will not want to play hockey because they look to see how good the program has been and decide to try something different. That is why EVERY kid in Edina wants to play hockey. Placing kids at the appropriate level (even a lower level) will create competitiveness and kids will want to play and develop into better players.
It's time to make a change before its too late!
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:19 pm
by observer
Bingo auld_school and wingnuts.
It's about attracting and retaining more players for Bloomington Youth Hockey Association and has nothing to do with Kennedy or Jefferson. It's important they take on their own brand, like the Bears suggestion, with their own color scheme, not to be confused with a Jaguar or an Eagle. More kids playing at the right level improves development, fun and success. Recruiting improves because of that and the single focused effort on recruiting in all the schools instead of competing in your own community. With more and better players in the Youth Association long term both High Schools benefit.