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I understand the concerns of those having to play in a very tough section 6AA. This section year in and year out is a pretty competitive section. The problem is moving teams around for a year to year basis is not the answer. The teams from the north usually have pretty good showings at the state tournament. Just five or six years ago Grand Rapids played for a state title. Roseau has done a good job when they have represented the north. If you change the sections based on one season where your best section without question is sec 6AA than your missing the point, so every year one section is loaded we should accommodate that section? It seems to me that we are looking at this because we have such a talented section 6AA this season and basing everything around this season. The fact is every team has to earn their spot into the state tournament. Are some sections tougher than others? Absolutely, but these teams that make it to the tournament have earned that right. I think we need to remember it is about the kids and not about where we live.

I also find it funny that we are even having this conversation. A few years ago when Cloquet, Duluth and Grand Rapids were some of your top teams in the state you never herd people complain about the section. Also those same years Hibbing, Warroad, and Crookston had to battle it out but you never heard anyone complaining then about how the sections were set up poorly. The northern schools may go a couple of years without having a top ten rating but they always come back. And when they are on top you don’t hear them complaining about how there sections are not fair. That’s because they understand the history of our great game. They know and understand that this is how hockey works. You have to earn your spot at a state tournament and the odds change from year to year. One of the best high school girl’s players to ever play for Warroad never even had her chance to play in a state tournament because Hibbing beat Warroad 4 straight years. Gigi Marvin 425 career high school points which makes her fifth all-time in Minnesota girls career scoring, you never heard Warroad fans complaining about having to tough a section.

Let's stop pretending people will care about the girls tournament if more 6AA teams play. 99% of people will only go to see their community team, their kids or someone they know.

The quality of hockey doesn't mean anything. There are college teams in Minnesota that can't get a couple hundred people to show for a game involving some of the best players in the world. Same at the younger levels. No one watches the girls elite games or the Shattuck preps.

It is far more important to continue generating interest in this niche sport throughout the state.

FASTWHEATIE wrote:I think we need to remember it is about the kids and not about where we live.

And I guess I don't understand how this can be applied to either side's argument. What's "best for the kids?" And which kids? Is it best for whoever comes out of 7AA to not have to face Tonka, BSM, Buffalo or Hopkins? is it best for whoever comes out of 3AA to avoid Eden Prairie or Edina? Depends. Is it "best for the kids" to be in the tournament or not? Seems to me that no matter what system you use, only 8 teams make the tournament, which means that for the other 60, it's not "best" for them.

So, assuming that making the tournament is the only "best" outcome for 8 sets of kids, why is one geographical set of kids better than one more skilled set?

No, what this is really about is that whatever system gives your kids a better shot at the tournament, you tend to think that's "best for the kids" because it's best for your kids.

I continue to argue that if every system yields 8 happy teams and 60 disappointed teams, let's choose the one where at the end of the day you get the best hockey games in the tourney. Let's put the most skilled, hardest-working teams in there and have them have at it for 3 days. If all those teams come from up north, great. If they are all within 20 miles of Braemar, that's okay too. If none of them have ever been west of the river, I can live with that too. The best is the best is the best. I do not think moving teams from one section to another is the answer because there's no telling which section is loaded from year to year. I think 8 sites around the state should host sectionals that have been seeded with teams from across the state and those winners go to state. It's been messed up for awhile now. How about a solution which allows for fairness in every year, no matter which section is best that year.

FASTWHEATIE wrote:I also find it funny that we are even having this conversation. A few years ago when Cloquet, Duluth and Grand Rapids were some of your top teams in the state you never herd people complain about the section.

I would say that reason that you didn't hear complaining was because in the years that those teams were good, there was never a season (according to Krach) where more than one of them finished in the top 10. I think it's a different story when you have the top 2 teams in the state in one section.

Seems that some of these comments are hitting very close to home to a few, based on the emotional responses. That being said, it's still good to have this dialogue, since we seem to have every viewpoint on the spectrum from "leave things alone; the current system is perfect" (yes, I suppose that there still are some people who believe that the world is flat) to "let's have a complete overhaul because the current system is utterly broken". My viewpoint is somewhere in the middle, but I sincerely believe that something that can be improved (this being one of those situations) is generally worth improving.

Fastwheatie you completely lost me? Read it several times and still don't get your position. Somehow this is "I don't feel sorry for section 6" or a "Protect the small towns from up north" conversation.

The fact is it takes all year to play out for the rankings to be their most accurate. Currently 7 of the top 11 teams are in 2 sections. So mathematically speaking half of the top 10 doesn't have a chance to go to state. How is this not broke and why do people put a spin on it like were all idiots? Its about geography(funny), the kids(funnier) and the past(funniest). We are just looking for a better system!! Not a perfect system. If Warroad is good, they will make it. If Roseau is good, they will make it. Nobody is trying block anybody, nor change tradition or get section 6 teams in. Yes good teams will always be left out but just read the blogs and its obvious its broke. Story after story...."back in 1942 Crookston, Greenway, Grand Rapids and Duluth were all in the same section and were all ranked in the top 5".....Thats broke!!!!

Last, how is it possible for someone to put in writing that someone else's kids "experience" is more important than anothers? Like little Susie's from Bemidji's experience at the Excel means more than it does to a girl from Lakeville????

I respect that all of you want to debate this, and I don't disagree with many of the arguements put forth, but if you think for a second that the MSHSL will change their mission/procedure/policies for GIRLS hockey, you are hilariously delusional.

rwb1351 wrote:I respect that all of you want to debate this, and I don't disagree with many of the arguements put forth, but if you think for a second that the MSHSL will change their mission/procedure/policies for GIRLS hockey, you are hilariously delusional.

It's not just girls hockey that has this issue, it's most sports (boys/girls), however I agree with you main point. If history tells us anything the only way to promote change by the MSHSL is a lawsuit. That's unfortunate, but seems to be the way to make logical change happen.

36guy you completely lost me!

First of all rankings dont mean anything! I understand Tonka and BSM are probably the two best in the state. After that it doesnt mean anything. This isnt the NCAA basketball tourney or BCS standings, its high school hockey people.

You change it to one system then people complain about that, then lets chang it again and again. So 7AA is down right now, oh well. Elk River and Grand Rapids have been decent in the past. Tell me what their youth programs are like. Both have been very successful lately. I would expect both to be good in a few years.

How good will Minnetonka be when they lose Rossman, Peterson, Bowman, Behounek, and Morin? I imagine they take a big step back to reality next year. If they arent that good should we then change the sections again to please the top 10 teams that year.

Maybe we are all just living in a world run by lake conference teams and private teams. Here is an idea...go start your own tournament. I bet the attendance doesnt change

Maybe you should complain about 1AA too...oh wait how many teams are ranked in 3AA right now (1 team and they are #15, and they just went to overtime against the 8 seed) Oh oh and those are city teams.

Did you just advocate for a lawsuit to change the mission of the MSHSL? High school athletics are not professional -- college athletics have certainly become professional... High school athletics were never intended to be what so many of you here wish them to be -- its life skills, teamwork and the promotion of the game that matter... Yikes

allhoc11 wrote:

rwb1351 wrote:I respect that all of you want to debate this, and I don't disagree with many of the arguements put forth, but if you think for a second that the MSHSL will change their mission/procedure/policies for GIRLS hockey, you are hilariously delusional.

It's not just girls hockey that has this issue, it's most sports (boys/girls), however I agree with you main point. If history tells us anything the only way to promote change by the MSHSL is a lawsuit. That's unfortunate, but seems to be the way to make logical change happen.

Tigers33 wrote:36guy you completely lost me!

First of all rankings dont mean anything! I understand Tonka and BSM are probably the two best in the state. After that it doesnt mean anything. This isnt the NCAA basketball tourney or BCS standings, its high school hockey people.

You change it to one system then people complain about that, then lets chang it again and again. So 7AA is down right now, oh well. Elk River and Grand Rapids have been decent in the past. Tell me what their youth programs are like. Both have been very successful lately. I would expect both to be good in a few years.

How good will Minnetonka be when they lose Rossman, Peterson, Bowman, Behounek, and Morin? I imagine they take a big step back to reality next year. If they arent that good should we then change the sections again to please the top 10 teams that year.

Maybe we are all just living in a world run by lake conference teams and private teams. Here is an idea...go start your own tournament. I bet the attendance doesnt change

Maybe you should complain about 1AA too...oh wait how many teams are ranked in 3AA right now (1 team and they are #15, and they just went to overtime against the 8 seed) Oh oh and those are city teams.

Mr. Tiger...first you are absolutely correct! The rankings mean absolutely nothing, after all 5 of the top 11 teams in the state can't make it to state so why bother ranking them....so for that SOLID POINT Mr. Kitty!

In those meaningless rankings, how much would you like to wager that one of the other top 10 ranked teams wins it?(wager is in pride not $$$).

Paragraph 2, I have never complained about other teams sections, speculated on their youth programs or the direction a program is going. I am glad you are well versed in upcoming youth programs and the direction of their programs. Again, I have just said there has to be a better way of getting MOST of the great teams that year to state and not insult it like its some sort of state fair gathering that uses a blind draw to get in.

As far Tonka next year. Don't know, don't care. I am sure those girls will do their best. I will say this....If they are bad next year and the sections do get realigned. I hope they don't get a free pass to state just because of a good draw.

Last, as far as 1AA or 3AA don't care their either pal. The coaches, parents and players did not invent this process, they have just tried to win games and do their best. It's the system I think can be improved, got no problem with the teams from anywhere.

Go start your own tournament???? Hilarious!! Thanks for making me smile Bro!

If you're not one of the best 8 teams in state and you make the tournament, you should have had to knock one of them off. It's really that simple. I love the idea of seeding the whole state and having 8 sections which move from town to town every year.

Geography, enrollment, private, public, co-op all make things unbalanced. The only way to get balanced again is to make everyone play everyone.

U10Father wrote:If you're not one of the best 8 teams in state and you make the tournament, you should have had to knock one of them off. It's really that simple. I love the idea of seeding the whole state and having 8 sections which move from town to town every year.

Geography, enrollment, private, public, co-op all make things unbalanced. The only way to get balanced again is to make everyone play everyone.

A few questions raised by this proposal:

1. Who ranks all of the teams in the state? Getting the coaches together to rank everyone seems impractical, so it almost has to use KRACH or something of its ilk. I'm not deeply troubled by that, but I suspect there are many people out there who would really, really dislike using computers to decide who gets the "easier" road to State.
2. This will almost certainly create more travel. This might not be a huge issue in AA, where most (if not all) of the top eight are probably in the Metro, but first-round play-in games could still very easily end up being something like Roseau vs. Rochester, and it could get really crazy in Class A. That means more travel, more money spent, possibly more missed classes, and probably smaller crowds.
3. Having the last round, or last couple rounds, in a designated city raises many similar concerns relating to travel and attendance. The fan base for girls' hockey is small enough as it is; do you really think a game between, oh, #8 Minnetonka and #9 Benilde that is played in Duluth to determine the last spot in a State Tourney is going to generate more attention than a section final between #25 Minnetonka and #36 Benilde at Parade?
4. This proposal would also effectively kill the state's better playoff rivalries due to the complete randomness of possible opponents. Some may not care about this, of course, but one could argue that removing such things would alter the HS hockey experience in a negative way.

By no means is the current system perfect--just throwing out some things the critics may not have considered.

goaline wrote:Did you just advocate for a lawsuit to change the mission of the MSHSL? High school athletics are not professional -- college athletics have certainly become professional... High school athletics were never intended to be what so many of you here wish them to be -- its life skills, teamwork and the promotion of the game that matter... Yikes

Nope, just pointing out that the last two major changes, that have had a clear effect on girls hockey, by the HS league (Moving girls tourney to X, Transfer rule) were brought about by lawsuit.

I think many reasonable requests have been made to change certain things in the past (not by parents) but proper sources, and the feeling I get is unless they HSL is looking at a lawsuit they are fine with the status quo, just my observations.

36 - so you just complain about things and not come up with a solution. Everything works itself out in the end is what I am getting at. Meaning next a different section might be better then others and the year after a different section. So you apparently just want it to change each year so the top 8 teams according to your rankings make it.

Tigers33 wrote:36 - so you just complain about things and not come up with a solution. Everything works itself out in the end is what I am getting at. Meaning next a different section might be better then others and the year after a different section. So you apparently just want it to change each year so the top 8 teams according to your rankings make it.

First, I don't rank teams. Second, I have given my solution many times. They already realign every couple years and we have a couple weeks from the end of the season til state. So..hear it what I would do:

Play out the sections as they do now. When all teams get to Section finals (thats 16 teams...it is ok to use all four paws if you need help counting.)
At the final 16 re-seed the teams and play games at a neutral site.

Example: Lakeville vs Moorhead would be played at St. Cloud

Back on subject FL 3 Duluth 1. perdiction

Sure was good to set up a section where two average teams from the cities had a chance to compete for a shot at state.

Set up a section ??? Are you suggesting that the FL/ER teams "set up" the section ?? What's wrong w/you ?

OG85...review your notes...

FL 3 ER 2 fun game to watch. Shots 37-35

Thats awesome for FL to make it to state. I know some of that coaching staff and i am very happy for them. They have worked hard and turned that program around. However, if the issue is creating a system that represents the best at the State tournament vs. geographical representation it seems odd that tomorrow night there will be a team with either 5 losses or 3 losses that won't make it to State. Just repeating what many have said, the system is not perfect and many "better teams" will be hanging up their skates while others play another week just because they are in the right section. Wish i had the answer but there is way too much politics for my little brain to figure it out. Congrats to FL! There is something to be said about the current system when you can be rewarded by making it to state for showing improvement. May not make other better teams happy but i do like that there is a big a reward out there for those that are climbing the ladder.

It's similiar to real-estate...location, location, location.

Agreed, I feel bad for those kids and good for ours. Maybe that "Ncaa type 64 team tourny would be the answer.