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Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:09 pm
by keepyourheadup
Bafata you make some very good points, I tend to agree with most of your post. With regard to Iverson and Bitner there is little question they were given this opportunity based largely on the fact that they have the size to compete in what is generally considered the most physical league in the CHL. These kids are projects and I'm not so certain that comparing them with some of the players you mentioned is really fair to them. I hope they both succeed but we should all keep in mind that there are 59 CHL teams, thats roughly 600 players, maybe 10 percent will ever sniff a shift in the NHL.
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:05 am
by MrBoDangles
mnhockfan99 wrote:I'm a huge fan of MN HS hockey but I ask you - where do most of the top NHL draft picks come from currently? The big 3 Canadian junior leagues..I am all for more MN kids making it to that level, without a doubt..I know there is hesitation for some teams to pick HS kids high or at all at times, because they do not consistently play against other kids who are top end kids and no one with half a brain is going to invest that kind of pick on someone that hasn't consistently proved they can compete and be a player vs. other top end players..
The USHL is a great league I don't think anyone is discounting that...and if Bittner - and I have nothing against him, simply using him as an example - was looking like an 'all star' - why in the world does he have zero points and is -4 in 19 playoff games? If he was that kind of player he should fall out of bed and get a point every couple games..if you think any of the current MN high school kids can hang with Rattie, Jones or Pouliot - sorry..
Bittner filled in on the first line for four(?) games when a player was playing for their national team........ He had close to ten points in the four games. Yes, he hung VERY well..
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:19 am
by bafata88
Well, the boys from Minnesota made it to the championship game. This Sunday 6:00 pm the Portland Winterhawks play Halifax for the Memorial Cup. Whether you think it is right to leave Minnesota High School hockey to play in juniors or not, Bittner and Iverson [and Carruth] are playing in one of the biggest games there is. And they are playing with and against numerous future NHL players. Does it compare to playing that last game on Saturday night in the state tournament; hard to say unless you've done both to compare. Regardless, they are there and they are enjoying some success. Congratulations guys and Good Luck Portland!!
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:50 am
by Tigers33
This is the dumbest argument over and over. Why? Because there is NO correct answer! Everything is based on your own opinion, which is just fine. Nothing is based on hard core facts.
Bafata says these two are playing against future NHL players, and he is correct. However, he doesnt know who is going to play in the NHL and when they play in the NHL. Everyone in a Gophers jersey also played with many NHL players and against many NHL players. An argument could even be made like this...who has more players that will play in the NHL? The Gophers or Portland? Nobody knows that answer yet but it may be closer then some think. Sure going the Canada route definitely helps your draft status if you go before you've been drafted.
However, there are NO GUARANTEES when it comes to playing in the NHL.
A lot of it depends on the particular goal of the individual. If that goal is to play in the NHL and get drafted, then Canada might be the route. If the goal is to play D1 - start your degree (if not complete it) - and maybe play in the NHL, than College is your route. College route is the safe choice, Canada in my opinion is the more risky choice.
The one thing that everyone has to keep in mind and this has been proven...College players are becoming a lot more popular in the current NHL.
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 10:36 am
by Mailman
bafata88 wrote:Well, the boys from Minnesota made it to the championship game. This Sunday 6:00 pm the Portland Winterhawks play Halifax for the Memorial Cup. Whether you think it is right to leave Minnesota High School hockey to play in juniors or not, Bittner and Iverson [and Carruth] are playing in one of the biggest games there is. And they are playing with and against numerous future NHL players. Does it compare to playing that last game on Saturday night in the state tournament; hard to say unless you've done both to compare. Regardless, they are there and they are enjoying some success. Congratulations guys and Good Luck Portland!!
Do we know if they're actually playing or not ?
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:45 pm
by Puckguy19
To date, yes, they have been playing.
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 4:22 pm
by Mailman
Puckguy19 wrote:To date, yes, they have been playing.
Yeah, I know, thanks. I was just wondering about this game in particular.
Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:54 pm
by bafata88
Tigers, if you are reading some type of argument in my last post, I apologize for not being clearer. There is no argument there. Just stating some facts and wishing the boys well. Trust me, I take no position on the juniors vs high school question other than, it is up to the player and his family to pick the best route for them based upon their own needs and desires. I personally think a college education is a good thing.
Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:07 pm
by greybeard58
The game is on the NHL network. Carruth is in the nets Bittner is skating 2nd line and I believe Iverson is on the 3rd. Currently Portland is down 2-0.
Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:30 pm
by Tigers33
How many shifts did they get? In the third period I rarely saw either of them. Not sure I ever saw iverson. Must have been on the 4th line?
really
Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 11:23 pm
by coach95
Wow, you are such a loser. These guys are 16 skating in the best junior tournament in the world. There were 6 first round draft choices, including the top 3. I guess you think they would be better off staying in high school skating against guys that can't even play D3 let alone in the NHL. There is more hockey than Minnesota high school. Congrats to them for being on such a great team.
Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 11:34 pm
by mnhockfan99
Each of us in life have different opportunities and I applaud these kids for being part of a great league and team and wish them the best going forward..I'd love if all the MN talent stayed home and played here but it is not realistic with all the good options out there..ultimately I think playing time id the biggest thing for development but everyone has their own views and the right to make decisions..
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:44 am
by Tigers33
Coach - they were simple questions. I noticed you chose not to answer them. Of course it's awesome that they got to play in a game like that. With that said...I don't think I saw iverson much. I think I saw bitter once in the third period. At that age in my opinion ice time would have a lot to do with it!!
I guess it's like this saying...would you rather have your kid as the worst bantam aa player or the leading scorer on the bantam b1 team?
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:14 am
by greybeard58
The game will be replayed at noon on the NHL network. Saw Bittner quite a few times when I watched the game. In the 3rd thought I heard the announcers mention that he was the youngest player in the league(?).
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 12:46 pm
by keepyourheadup
The experience of their lives so far I bet, good for them and hopefully they get back there again.
I think maybe there there is a misunderstanding about the level of play in the CHL. The top players on the top teams are absolute studs, many of these kids transition directly into the NHL, there is no doubting the quality of these players. The change comes in terms of depth, most teams are dominated by their first lines and put up impressive numbers, after that its not much different than the USHL. A quick check of the championship game box score is a pretty good indicator of this. The trick for an Iverson or a Bitner is to become one of these go to guys. Portland, Halifax and the rest of the CHL is out there everyday looking for the next Mckinnon or Petan. Longevity in the league won't earn you that spot. If you are fortunate and develop into a NHL caliber player its a great track, unfortunately the great majority of CHL players won't be so lucky. In the end its the personal choice of each individual player and not really any of our business where they choose to play.
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:14 pm
by warriors41
Some people on this thread have said that ice time is the most important thing for development for these 16 year old kids. I don't disagree with that logic but you are forgetting the HUGEST portion of ice time.
Maybe these kids don't get as much game time as they would in high school, but even if that is the case, they are still practicing against the some of the best prospects in the world every day.
??
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:46 am
by Granttenn
Sometimes practicing against the absolute best players isn't best for your game. If I'm looking at a mid level D1 basketball scholarship, practicing against Lebron & D Wade everyday isn't going to help me much. Playing & practicing with slightly better competition tends to improve both the physical and mental aspects of the game.. Not 1st round NHL draft choices who these kids are unlikely to be on ice at same time as anyways (backed up by gentleman who talked about quick dropoff in team depth after 1st line)..
And for those of you who are talking about how so & so had a couple shifts in the third period but it's against future NHL'ers in this historic event, like touching the Cup will result in some type of osmosis - that's great for telling your buddies some day when you get home from working at Best Buy that you used to play with those dudes on TV.... There is so little quantitative analysis here that I tend to like the Nirvana guy more & more and the best quote yet "and he will end up being the player he ends up being." That pretty much sums up the subjective, soft, analysis that I just spent 15 minutes reading..
The main problem is that for this type of analysis, the sample size has been so small that what you end up with is subjective projections based on biases & impressions of what you think the experience is or isn't for these kids and little tidbits of knowledge & stats tossed in for seasoning... It's fitting that's it's up Yukon way because that is almost what these kids are facing when they head up on their own gold-rush i.e. tales, promises, and larger than life expectations against the Great Spirit high-1st rounders and the zen-like, tundra hardened coaches...
Actually a fitting image of the coach to go with this analysis is a slimmer, paler, more animated version of Curly from City Slickers. I can hear it know.. "Kid, if you want to know the secret to becomming a 1st round draft choice is it's only one thing"; "What's that coach"; "That's for you to find out - now get down there on the end of the bench for another period"
:):)
=
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:55 pm
by scorekeeper
Tigers33 wrote:The one thing that everyone has to keep in mind and this has been proven...College players are becoming a lot more popular in the current NHL.
Yes, they are now almost 1/2 as popular as CHL players despite having 25% more players annually
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:59 pm
by scorekeeper
warriors41 wrote:Some people on this thread have said that ice time is the most important thing for development for these 16 year old kids. I don't disagree with that logic but you are forgetting the HUGEST portion of ice time.
Maybe these kids don't get as much game time as they would in high school, but even if that is the case, they are still practicing against the some of the best prospects in the world every day.
Iverson and Bittner get FAR MORE ice on the 4th line for Portland than they would on the first line of their high school team. AND they get it playing with and against a much higher caliber opponent.
Iverson played 66 games this year. Bittner played 64. Even if they only played 11 of 60 minutes a game they still get an average near 720 minutes each. If Grant Besse played more than half of his teams 51 minutes a game that only gets him about 700 minutes on the year. Bear in mind Bittner and Iverson are playing against men up to 21 years old. Besse is playing against kids who;s average age is 16 1/2
That doesn't even begin to speak about the intense practice opportunities not afforded to Minnesota High Schoolers
There is a reason the CHL supplies twice as much talent to the NHL as the NCAA, despite being smaller in rostered players.
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:28 pm
by keepyourheadup
You are right scorekeep, and that reason is they have the luxury of getting first crack at the top players in the best hockey player producing country on the planet. Its the Canadian system, its what they know and expect and it obviously works for them. Sweden and Finland have hockey academies where they specialize as teenagers on just hockey and their systems produce a great number of players as well. There is no one size fits all. I agree with an earlier post...if your meant to play in the NHL you most likely will no matter the route you take.
With 59 CHL teams the total number of players is fairly close to the number of div 1 players in the ncaa.
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:03 am
by scorekeeper
keepyourheadup wrote:You are right scorekeep, and that reason is they have the luxury of getting first crack at the top players in the best hockey player producing country on the planet. Its the Canadian system, its what they know and expect and it obviously works for them. Sweden and Finland have hockey academies where they specialize as teenagers on just hockey and their systems produce a great number of players as well. There is no one size fits all. I agree with an earlier post...if your meant to play in the NHL you most likely will no matter the route you take.
With 59 CHL teams the total number of players is fairly close to the number of div 1 players in the ncaa.
The NCAA has 59 schools with an average roster of 27 players per school, with an average number of players (59 X 27) each year of 1,593
The CHL has 60 teams with an average roster of 23 per team, with an average number of players (60 X 23) each year of 1,380
Yet despits icing an average of 213 FEWER players per year, the CHL provides 60% of the NHL talent while the NCAA provides just 30%. So a league that has 25% fewer players produces 100% more NHL talent.
Is it because they have BETTER PLAYERS? BETTER COACHES? BETTER DEVEOPMENT MODEL? or ALL OF THE ABOVE?
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:53 am
by Granttenn
scorekeeper wrote:keepyourheadup wrote:You are right scorekeep, and that reason is they have the luxury of getting first crack at the top players in the best hockey player producing country on the planet. Its the Canadian system, its what they know and expect and it obviously works for them. Sweden and Finland have hockey academies where they specialize as teenagers on just hockey and their systems produce a great number of players as well. There is no one size fits all. I agree with an earlier post...if your meant to play in the NHL you most likely will no matter the route you take.
With 59 CHL teams the total number of players is fairly close to the number of div 1 players in the ncaa.
The flaw with that analysis is that NCAA is a 4 year stay. How many years does average player spend in CHL. Say, for arguement it's 2, then they are running twice as many kids through.. Without that data, you can't make an apples to apples comparison.. Make sense?
The NCAA has 59 schools with an average roster of 27 players per school, with an average number of players (59 X 27) each year of 1,593
The CHL has 60 teams with an average roster of 23 per team, with an average number of players (60 X 23) each year of 1,380
Yet despits icing an average of 213 FEWER players per year, the CHL provides 60% of the NHL talent while the NCAA provides just 30%. So a league that has 25% fewer players produces 100% more NHL talent.
Is it because they have BETTER PLAYERS? BETTER COACHES? BETTER DEVEOPMENT MODEL? or ALL OF THE ABOVE?
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:54 am
by Granttenn
scorekeeper wrote:keepyourheadup wrote:You are right scorekeep, and that reason is they have the luxury of getting first crack at the top players in the best hockey player producing country on the planet. Its the Canadian system, its what they know and expect and it obviously works for them. Sweden and Finland have hockey academies where they specialize as teenagers on just hockey and their systems produce a great number of players as well. There is no one size fits all. I agree with an earlier post...if your meant to play in the NHL you most likely will no matter the route you take.
With 59 CHL teams the total number of players is fairly close to the number of div 1 players in the ncaa.
The NCAA has 59 schools with an average roster of 27 players per school, with an average number of players (59 X 27) each year of 1,593
The CHL has 60 teams with an average roster of 23 per team, with an average number of players (60 X 23) each year of 1,380
Yet despits icing an average of 213 FEWER players per year, the CHL provides 60% of the NHL talent while the NCAA provides just 30%. So a league that has 25% fewer players produces 100% more NHL talent.
Is it because they have BETTER PLAYERS? BETTER COACHES? BETTER DEVEOPMENT MODEL? or ALL OF THE ABOVE?
The flaw with that analysis is that NCAA is a 4 year stay. How many years does average player spend in CHL. Say, for arguement it's 2, then they are running twice as many kids through.. Without that data, you can't make an apples to apples comparison.. Make sense?
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 7:44 am
by Tigers33
Nothing makes sense to scorekeeper. Lets keep in mind that is ALL the kids play in Canada. Hockey is gradually becoming more popular in the USA which is why you also see a jump up in the number of NCAA players playing in the pro's.
Scorekeeper also likes to round up in his favor on everything. Not sure how 213 is 25% and I also think the number is up to 33 percent of pro's played in college. It was 31% in a study two years ago. And yes a majority stayed 3-4 years before turning pro.
Scorekeeper we all know your stance on this subject...and we all know you love a good argument. I wish the watch keepers would lock up these major junior/NCAA debates cause there is NOT a right answer. Both are good path's to the NHL.
Dub
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:03 am
by Bluewhitefan
Let's not forget the lengthy posts Scorekeeper made during the season regarding a certain kid that chose to jump to the W after one year of HS hockey. He gave us the history of the kid's youth career as he jumped from association to association and then from school to school. Score is most probably this kid's parent or close family friend. It is not surprising that he has an obvious bias toward hockey north of the border.