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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:48 pm
by woody
Anyone know what's going on in Lakeville South with goaltending? Went to the Shakopee game last week and didn't see their number one goalie playing.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:01 am
by itsfoilcoach
woody wrote:nu2hockey wrote:woody wrote:
Please enlighten us on what conferences are so much better in state?
Lake,Greater Mn,IMAC,Northwest Suburban north, South Suburban ....all can be said to be better for one reason or another
I will give you that Lake doesn't have any weak teams but after Edina the teams are slightly above average and no better than the top 3 teams in the Suburban East. So basically there are 2 more better teams in this conference than what the East has.
There is 6 teams in the Suburban East that are as good if not better than any team in the Greater MN. Case in point Mounds View (who is a lower quality team in the east) split with 2 of their better teams this season. Please refer to the teams in this conference on their SOS as well. Way at the bottom!
IMAC has one team Blake, is that team better than any team in the east? Yes they are, but after that this conference has nothing. There is a lot more quality teams in the east. Not sure how you call 4 teams a conference anyways.
I would agree the Northwest Suburban North is better and probably the best conference in the state. But with the addition of Northwest Suburban West to their schedule for conference games that makes the Northwest Suburban conference as a whole pretty soft. The west has 6 teams that are just as bad as the Suburban Easts worst team.
Suburban South has 3 teams in the top 20 rankings. So does the Suburban East. The Suburban East has 2 teams ranked higher than any team in the South. Not sure where you see this conference is any better. I would say they are pretty close in strength.
Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. Suburban East is just a legit as any conference in state. One thing I do know most people that call for conspiracy theories are normally on the outside looking in and trying to find excuses why they are not in. That would be my guess on why itsfoilcoach is making all these accusations of padding stats and claiming the U18 goalie was selected because of place of residence.
• “Woody” - Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. –
Answer … YUP. Suburban East is kind of weak - Its been sliding down for a few years actually. Now I’m not saying their goalies aren’t quality net minders, because they are. But yes, both teams’ schedules are very weak conference and non-conference as well. Not one team they play are ranked in the top 20.
On a side note - As far as I’m concerned, any team after the #5 spot down to 15 or so in the AA top 20 in Lets Play Hockey rankings you can cluster together in flip a coin to see who is better.
SOS Suburban East Rankings.
Cretin 56
Stillwater 43
Woodbury 91
East Ridge 52
Park 47
* Suburban East is just a legit as any conference in state.
Answer - LOL. See above or Centennial example below.
* “Woody” - One thing I do know most people that call for conspiracy theories are normally on the outside looking in. -
Answer . Nope, not on the outside. – There is a lot of quality players out there playing tougher schedules with equally impressive stats you dont hear from. I would like to see some equal time for others across the state of hockey when real quality achievements are reached.
For example -
Centennial. – They play Blake, Hill, Edina, Blaine and other ranked teams.
Goalies –
Centenial – Pick either one.
Stoterau - .50GAA .979 SV%
Torma - 1.50 GAA. 922 SV%
FWDs -
Gabbie Hughes – 25 10 35 pts . Now that’s great stats when you look at who they played.
Vs
Red Wing – Scheduled games. Austin, Rochester Mayo, Rochester Century.
Heise - 25 10 35 Pts - You hear a lot from this school however.
But have you heard much about Gabby?.. Frankly not a whole lot outside of this forum.
* “Woody” - That would be my guess on why itsfoilcoach is making all these accusations of padding stats.
Answer. Kind of sort of. Padded, or just mistakes being made, you slice it the way you would like. Well ..Just one example. - 124 shots between the two and a 97% SV% in one game. maybe legit, maybe not. Ill let you decide. There are more as you know.
* "Woody" and claiming the U18 goalie was selected because of place of residence. –
Answer. Where are they both from again? With few goalies out there to pick from at that age, I can see going with a proven commodity. You know her strengths, and weaknesses. Hell, I would do the same thing maybe. But you’re naive if you think that didn’t come into play at all. Just knowing her personally, along with her skill sets makes it a biased opinion/decision. It would be difficult not too, its humane nature to a point. Still a quality net minder however you look at this.
Seems everyone gets stuck on numbers. But they dont look beyond those to see what it took to get them. (statistically true or not) Some athletes have a much harder road to travel. So when you look at Flake or WB goalies GAA or SV% in comparison to a Northwest Suburban section scheduled goalie, they both maybe impressive, but NWS is a much tougher conference to achieve quality numbers in, and slightly better ones at that.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:57 am
by Mnnstar
itsfoilcoach wrote:woody wrote:nu2hockey wrote:
Lake,Greater Mn,IMAC,Northwest Suburban north, South Suburban ....all can be said to be better for one reason or another
I will give you that Lake doesn't have any weak teams but after Edina the teams are slightly above average and no better than the top 3 teams in the Suburban East. So basically there are 2 more better teams in this conference than what the East has.
There is 6 teams in the Suburban East that are as good if not better than any team in the Greater MN. Case in point Mounds View (who is a lower quality team in the east) split with 2 of their better teams this season. Please refer to the teams in this conference on their SOS as well. Way at the bottom!
IMAC has one team Blake, is that team better than any team in the east? Yes they are, but after that this conference has nothing. There is a lot more quality teams in the east. Not sure how you call 4 teams a conference anyways.
I would agree the Northwest Suburban North is better and probably the best conference in the state. But with the addition of Northwest Suburban West to their schedule for conference games that makes the Northwest Suburban conference as a whole pretty soft. The west has 6 teams that are just as bad as the Suburban Easts worst team.
Suburban South has 3 teams in the top 20 rankings. So does the Suburban East. The Suburban East has 2 teams ranked higher than any team in the South. Not sure where you see this conference is any better. I would say they are pretty close in strength.
Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. Suburban East is just a legit as any conference in state. One thing I do know most people that call for conspiracy theories are normally on the outside looking in and trying to find excuses why they are not in. That would be my guess on why itsfoilcoach is making all these accusations of padding stats and claiming the U18 goalie was selected because of place of residence.
• “Woody” - Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. –
Answer … YUP. Suburban East is kind of weak - Its been sliding down for a few years actually. Now I’m not saying their goalies aren’t quality net minders, because they are. But yes, both teams’ schedules are very weak conference and non-conference as well. Not one team they play are ranked in the top 20.
On a side note - As far as I’m concerned, any team after the #5 spot down to 15 or so in the AA top 20 in Lets Play Hockey rankings you can cluster together in flip a coin to see who is better.
SOS Suburban East Rankings.
Cretin 56
Stillwater 43
Woodbury 91
East Ridge 52
Park 47
* Suburban East is just a legit as any conference in state.
Answer - LOL. See above or Centennial example below.
* “Woody” - One thing I do know most people that call for conspiracy theories are normally on the outside looking in. -
Answer . Nope, not on the outside. – There is a lot of quality players out there playing tougher schedules with equally impressive stats you dont hear from. I would like to see some equal time for others across the state of hockey when real quality achievements are reached.
For example -
Centennial. – They play Blake, Hill, Edina, Blaine and other ranked teams.
Goalies –
Centenial – Pick either one.
Stoterau - .50GAA .979 SV%
Torma - 1.50 GAA. 922 SV%
FWDs -
Gabbie Hughes – 25 10 35 pts . Now that’s great stats when you look at who they played.
Vs
Red Wing – Scheduled games. Austin, Rochester Mayo, Rochester Century.
Heise - 25 10 35 Pts - You hear a lot from this school however.
But have you heard much about Gabby?.. Frankly not a whole lot outside of this forum.
* “Woody” - That would be my guess on why itsfoilcoach is making all these accusations of padding stats.
Answer. Kind of sort of. Padded, or just mistakes being made, you slice it the way you would like. Well ..Just one example. - 124 shots between the two and a 97% SV% in one game. maybe legit, maybe not. Ill let you decide. There are more as you know.
* "Woody" and claiming the U18 goalie was selected because of place of residence. –
Answer. Where are they both from again? With few goalies out there to pick from at that age, I can see going with a proven commodity. You know her strengths, and weaknesses. Hell, I would do the same thing maybe. But you’re naive if you think that didn’t come into play at all. Just knowing her personally, along with her skill sets makes it a biased opinion/decision. It would be difficult not too, its humane nature to a point. Still a quality net minder however you look at this.
Seems everyone gets stuck on numbers. But they dont look beyond those to see what it took to get them. (statistically true or not) Some athletes have a much harder road to travel. So when you look at Flake or WB goalies GAA or SV% in comparison to a Northwest Suburban section scheduled goalie, they both maybe impressive, but NWS is a much tougher conference to achieve quality numbers in, and slightly better ones at that.
Foil, you have some good arguments but let's be clear on this one. It is not even close in the state WBl's and Flake are the best, In the Elite League they were the best at their levels. WBL's at u-19 had her team in EL Championship so did FlAKE"S at u-16 FLAKE'S won the ship in both Elite and NIT in the NIT she didn't give up a goal. WBL"s goalie gives her team a chance to win every night so does FlAKE's. FLAKE's goalie has a much smaller margin for error than WBL"S because FLAKE's team does not have a goal scorer. Saw both goalies shut down the vaunted centennial 1 2 punch this summer in various tournaments. If you look at the 3 goalies on the national team two belong there WBL's and the girl from out east that made the team a year ago. If you truly want to play the conspiracy card look at goalie 3 gopher commit. I saw here play this summer also she is two steps below WBL"S and FLAKE"S but she is bigger than both and a future Gopher. As for the two Centennial goalies don't know much about them but they seem to be benefiting from the fact that they are usually playing with a multiple goal lead. The true test will be next year when all that scoring is gone will the Cent girls give their teams a chance? I agree with foil on one thing the stats don't mean much.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:56 am
by NORTHWOODS HOCKEY
Foil, you have some good arguments but let's be clear on this one. It is not even close in the state WBl's and Flake are the best, In the Elite League they were the best at their levels. WBL's at u-19 had her team in EL Championship so did FlAKE"S at u-16 FLAKE'S won the ship in both Elite and NIT in the NIT she didn't give up a goal. WBL"s goalie gives her team a chance to win every night so does FlAKE's. FLAKE's goalie has a much smaller margin for error than WBL"S because FLAKE's team does not have a goal scorer. Saw both goalies shut down the vaunted centennial 1 2 punch this summer in various tournaments. If you look at the 3 goalies on the national team two belong there WBL's and the girl from out east that made the team a year ago. If you truly want to play the conspiracy card look at goalie 3 gopher commit. I saw here play this summer also she is two steps below WBL"S and FLAKE"S but she is bigger than both and a future Gopher. As for the two Centennial goalies don't know much about them but they seem to be benefiting from the fact that they are usually playing with a multiple goal lead. The true test will be next year when all that scoring is gone will the Cent girls give their teams a chance? I agree with foil on one thing the stats don't mean much.[/quote]
Mnnstar,
I have seen both goalies, the FLAKE goalie a lot, and agree both are quality goalies. However, at U16, it is not as clear cut as you indicate. There are 4 or 5 goalies at her age, that I know of, that are as good. Her parents were wise to move her to FLAKE, as now she has the advantage of a very strong skating team in front of her, other goalies, not so much. FLAKE may not have a "true" goal scorer, but they have at the very least, 4 extremely strong D in front of her and two lines that can "skate" with anyone.
As far as NIT, NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE. I had a daughter on the team and the FLAKE goalie faced 25 shots - not a game - total. They played 4 extremely weak opponents.
As far as Elite League - BETTER EXAMPLE. However, the team had two goalies and they split time in the net. Her counter part actually played in more games. They both played extremely well, but if you look at the stats, her teammate performed much better and was the goalie that shut SSM down in the Chip. In addition, her counter part only gave up two goals the entire Elite League season.
That is not to take away from FLAKE's goalie, she is VERY GOOD and played awesome as well!!!. Just providing one example of a goalie at her age that performed just as well, if not better, with all things being equal (Just to be clear, I have zero ties to either goalie).
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:53 am
by woody
itsfoilcoach wrote:woody wrote:nu2hockey wrote:
Lake,Greater Mn,IMAC,Northwest Suburban north, South Suburban ....all can be said to be better for one reason or another
I will give you that Lake doesn't have any weak teams but after Edina the teams are slightly above average and no better than the top 3 teams in the Suburban East. So basically there are 2 more better teams in this conference than what the East has.
There is 6 teams in the Suburban East that are as good if not better than any team in the Greater MN. Case in point Mounds View (who is a lower quality team in the east) split with 2 of their better teams this season. Please refer to the teams in this conference on their SOS as well. Way at the bottom!
IMAC has one team Blake, is that team better than any team in the east? Yes they are, but after that this conference has nothing. There is a lot more quality teams in the east. Not sure how you call 4 teams a conference anyways.
I would agree the Northwest Suburban North is better and probably the best conference in the state. But with the addition of Northwest Suburban West to their schedule for conference games that makes the Northwest Suburban conference as a whole pretty soft. The west has 6 teams that are just as bad as the Suburban Easts worst team.
Suburban South has 3 teams in the top 20 rankings. So does the Suburban East. The Suburban East has 2 teams ranked higher than any team in the South. Not sure where you see this conference is any better. I would say they are pretty close in strength.
Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. Suburban East is just a legit as any conference in state. One thing I do know most people that call for conspiracy theories are normally on the outside looking in and trying to find excuses why they are not in. That would be my guess on why itsfoilcoach is making all these accusations of padding stats and claiming the U18 goalie was selected because of place of residence.
• “Woody” - Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. –
Answer … YUP. Suburban East is kind of weak - Its been sliding down for a few years actually. Now I’m not saying their goalies aren’t quality net minders, because they are. But yes, both teams’ schedules are very weak conference and non-conference as well.
Not one team they play are ranked in the top 20.
"Foil" Maybe do some better research next time before presenting an argument. See underlined statement above!
Just looked up both teams schedules and WBL has 8 top 20 teams on their schedule. They actually have played Elk River, Blake and Forest Lake who all have dabbled in the top 10 rankings so far this year. Forest Lake plays 9 top 20 teams. They have already played Minnetonka, Breck, and WBL.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:25 am
by IceHiker
Well, well, well. Seems to me this thread as taken a turn for the penalty box. Lets get it back on task about goalies.
But first lets set someone strait. We all know how much I like facts and statistics.
itsfoilcoach, I am not sure your head was on correctly when you made the statement, "Suburban East is kind of weak - Its been sliding down for a few years actually."
Let us look back on Section Final games for 2016-2017 season. Suburban East had more teams in the MSHSL Section Final games than ANY other conference. Can you argue with that? If you can you are dumber than we thought (not one to call someone out but lets stick to the facts).
3AA - East Ridge
4AA - WBL
6AA - CDH
7AA - Elk River
7AA - FL
The next time you post PLEASE make sure you add the words "My Opinion" so we can overlook the false statements you make.
NOW, with all that being said let us turn our rants on Suburban East or Section 7AA back to the appropriate threads on this board.
And one more note to add.
Mnnstar, you write your posts with the passion of a goalie parent. A parent from WBL or FL to be perhaps. I know your not a Frank (I have a niece that plays for WBL) so maybe the latter? A goalie does not make their team or coach look good. They make themselves look good. On the other hand, the other team can make a goalie look good. That happens all to often in girls hockey. WBL vs FL, Frank was the better goalie and FL helped that with 36+ shots into her glove and chest.
How about that 9th grader from Benilde. That was an impressive loss.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:55 am
by Mnnstar
IceHiker wrote:Well, well, well. Seems to me this thread as taken a turn for the penalty box. Lets get it back on task about goalies.
But first lets set someone strait. We all know how much I like facts and statistics.
itsfoilcoach, I am not sure your head was on correctly when you made the statement, "Suburban East is kind of weak - Its been sliding down for a few years actually."
Let us look back on Section Final games for 2016-2017 season. Suburban East had more teams in the MSHSL Section Final games than ANY other conference. Can you argue with that? If you can you are dumber than we thought (not one to call someone out but lets stick to the facts).
3AA - East Ridge
4AA - WBL
6AA - CDH
7AA - Elk River
7AA - FL
The next time you post PLEASE make sure you add the words "My Opinion" so we can overlook the false statements you make.
NOW, with all that being said let us turn our rants on Suburban East or Section 7AA back to the appropriate threads on this board.
And one more note to add.
Mnnstar, you write your posts with the passion of a goalie parent. A parent from WBL or FL to be perhaps. I know your not a Frank (I have a niece that plays for WBL) so maybe the latter? A goalie does not make their team or coach look good. They make themselves look good. On the other hand, the other team can make a goalie look good. That happens all to often in girls hockey. WBL vs FL, Frank was the better goalie and FL helped that with 36+ shots into her glove and chest.
How about that 9th grader from Benilde. That was an impressive loss.
Former goalie parent that loves the girls game. Watching the WBl Flake game you are 100% right that frank was better. Fl got away from what they did to get the lead and WBL was helped out by two non calls on the first goal but I digress. The only way to beat Frank is going to be traffic at the net She is that good. I work with the Armstrong Cooper coach and she says the girl from Beneilde has all of the tools to be a great one speaking of potential great ones how about the 7th grader playing for Breck!
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:09 pm
by Lace'emUp
IceHiker wrote:Well, well, well. Seems to me this thread as taken a turn for the penalty box. Lets get it back on task about goalies.
Or more so, let's get this discussion back to save percentage and how much we should be reading into that statistic. I think the
opinion has been clearly set that WBL and FLake have 2 of the best goalies in the state. In my opinion, the Blaine goalie needs to be seriously considered. SLP's is pretty darn good too. I'm sure we could toss out another 10 names. No more discussion needed there 9on this thread).
Here's several decent articles about save percentage in hockey these days. Some commentary could be considered "opinion", but more has to do with actual statistical analysis. Please read and comment has you like.
http://ingoalmag.com/analysis/gsaa-esse ... altenders/
https://hockey-graphs.com/2014/01/20/20 ... rrelation/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2132 ... al-lexicon
http://www.minnesotahockey.org/news_art ... r_id=86542
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:59 pm
by highgloveside
Howdy, new user old user here. had a daughter graduate a few years back and now have a niece that plays in that Suburban East. Have seen quite a few games she has played in and seems like girls hockey is even better than it was 5 short years ago. I used to post on this site but gave it up when she graduated but now I have another reason and it should be fun. I was reading the goalie post and I think the issue at hand is someone thinks the goalie stats are inflated? specifically the WBL and FL goalies? I was at that game and I have seen WBL and FL play several times this year and it was a great game for the goaltenders. Say what you want about stats but the WBL goalie seems like she is in a firing range at times. FL seems to do a better job at limiting second and third chances. I also saw WBL goals that game. One question for any goalies out there like myself. Does a goalie give up and not try to make a save because they think there should be a penalty on the play? answer is always NO. If the puck goes by you there is always an excuse right? IF you get beat you get beat.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:54 pm
by NORTHWOODS HOCKEY
Ok, as far as the Hub goes (and I think most know this but some may not) the home team is responsible for entering the data. There are 3 main ways to do this, entering it live, enter the info after the game directly off of the official stats sheet and finally, take a snap shot of the official stat sheet and send it in to the hub and they will enter. If any of these steps gets duplicated, so does the data. That is probably what happened with the above mention game.
With that said, the stats on the hub are only as good as the non bias officials in the box that are responsible to record them. Some think every thing is a shot on net for the home team (Buffalo) and some are super stingy. For the most part though, it is consistent for both teams one way or the other (with the exception of Buffalo).
We have our JV coach take our own stats - although rarely if ever are the shots the same as the official game sheet, for the most part they tell the same story.
There are times the refs get the #s wrong on goals and/or assists and it is up to the coach to correct these - it should be done right away and most times they are, but sometimes looking at film to confirm is the best way to get it right.
I have never experienced a coach padding their stats. Both coaches have official game sheets and want the info to be as accurate and consistent as possible.
If a coach does ever pad their own stats, the other coach can send the official game sheet to the hub and they will enter it and lock the game. I have never seen that happen.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:51 pm
by highgloveside
Holy Hannah, I just read through this again. Was that Foil guy saying the Heise gal isn't very good because she plays for RedWing? as I stated before i'm a few years behind but I have watched a lot of games because of renewed interest. That includes The Elite League in which I saw that girl play. I remember specifically commenting to by brother that whatever that girl does in season or offseason I would probably have her (niece) do whatever she does. She can shoot,pass, skate,stickhandle and more importantly think at a high level. Put that girl in any conference and she will still get a ton of points. Most likely more if you put her with that other girl from Centennial or any other decent player for that matter.
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:02 pm
by massalsa
I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread the last couple of days...LOVE the dialogue about goalies and some of the other sub topics like Hughes v Heise and conference strength or lack of it...
Couple of thoughts:
1. Great stuff by NORTHWOODS on the WBL/FLAKE goalie analysis.
2. Compare the FLAKE goalie with the Armstrong/Cooper goalie. Look at the number of shots and then save %. Look at the teams record in games she has played. 0-5. That A/C goalie must be HORRIBLE! Look at the schedule she has played and look at the statistics of those games. Blaine, MG, & Centennial. 166 shots in 3 games giving up 23 goals. Yikes. NOT SO FAST! She is or at least has been in the past an excellent goalie and in the many games I have seen her play (not for A/C) she is really good...for sure in the conversation of best goalies in her graduating year in the state.
3. Yes, Red Wing does NOT play the schedule that Centennial does. But ask virtually any hockey person in the state who they would like to have on their team for the next 4 years of NCAA hockey and I believe that person would say either Heise or Hughes. I have seen them both play a fair amount of times. I would choose Heise. They are the top 2 Ms Hockey candidates for this year in my mind. This might be a really bad example but I would compare them to McDavid & Ovechkin. I choose McDavid for my team. I think that Zumwinkle is more like Ovechkin than McDavid. Interesting to hear some other thoughts on this from some of you that have seen them both play a fair amount.
4. The 7th grade goalie from Breck was really good when I saw her play a fair amount as a youth player. I look forward to seeing her play a time or two this season. It will be fun to see what she plays like in several years. Good for Breck.
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:58 am
by IceHiker
massalsa wrote:
Couple of thoughts:
1. Great stuff by NORTHWOODS on the WBL/FLAKE goalie analysis.
2. Compare the FLAKE goalie with the Armstrong/Cooper goalie.
4. The 7th grade goalie from Breck was really good when I saw her play a fair amount as a youth player. I look forward to seeing her play a time or two this season. It will be fun to see what she plays like in several years. Good for Breck.
The 7th grader from Breck (Uma Corniea) stepped up big for the team this year. I have watched her play 3 games and can not wait to see her in a few more years. Solid base for a young tender.
A/C goalies share the net. Hard to look good behind a rough team that gives up so many opportunities.
NORTHWOODS said it best when dealing with statistics. "Stats on the hub are only as good as the non bias officials in the box that are responsible to record them". After talking to a friend last night I was told a goalie parent walked to the box and told the workers they had missed a few shots on net. This does not happen, does it?
In the end I feel that all stats should be tossed out and the pressure taken off the kids (and parents). Keep stats throughout the playoffs when team are head to head with comparable talent. That is when you will see the best rise and the rest fall.
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:32 pm
by itsfoilcoach
woody wrote:itsfoilcoach wrote:woody wrote:
I will give you that Lake doesn't have any weak teams but after Edina the teams are slightly above average and no better than the top 3 teams in the Suburban East. So basically there are 2 more better teams in this conference than what the East has.
There is 6 teams in the Suburban East that are as good if not better than any team in the Greater MN. Case in point Mounds View (who is a lower quality team in the east) split with 2 of their better teams this season. Please refer to the teams in this conference on their SOS as well. Way at the bottom!
IMAC has one team Blake, is that team better than any team in the east? Yes they are, but after that this conference has nothing. There is a lot more quality teams in the east. Not sure how you call 4 teams a conference anyways.
I would agree the Northwest Suburban North is better and probably the best conference in the state. But with the addition of Northwest Suburban West to their schedule for conference games that makes the Northwest Suburban conference as a whole pretty soft. The west has 6 teams that are just as bad as the Suburban Easts worst team.
Suburban South has 3 teams in the top 20 rankings. So does the Suburban East. The Suburban East has 2 teams ranked higher than any team in the South. Not sure where you see this conference is any better. I would say they are pretty close in strength.
Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. Suburban East is just a legit as any conference in state. One thing I do know most people that call for conspiracy theories are normally on the outside looking in and trying to find excuses why they are not in. That would be my guess on why itsfoilcoach is making all these accusations of padding stats and claiming the U18 goalie was selected because of place of residence.
• “Woody” - Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. –
Answer … YUP. Suburban East is kind of weak - Its been sliding down for a few years actually. Now I’m not saying their goalies aren’t quality net minders, because they are. But yes, both teams’ schedules are very weak conference and non-conference as well.
Not one team they play are ranked in the top 20.
"Foil" Maybe do some better research next time before presenting an argument. See underlined statement above!
Just looked up both teams schedules and WBL has 8 top 20 teams on their schedule. They actually have played Elk River, Blake and Forest Lake who all have dabbled in the top 10 rankings so far this year. Forest Lake plays 9 top 20 teams. They have already played Minnetonka, Breck, and WBL.
In my opinion –
White Bears Schedule – Other than Blake (lost), Hill and FL(w) in the top AA 10 rankings. Ref provided by Hub, Dec 11. Excluding Class A (Breck 3-6) and I didn’t include U19 and U15 which you might want to include, who knows it may help your SOS. I don’t include 11-20 rankings because it drops off to fast in my book.
Elk River, Blake(2), Rochester Lourdes, Park, Grand Rapids, Hibbing, MV Flake(6?), Woodbury, Stillwater Roseville, Hill, Spring Lake Park, East Ridge, Cretin, Eastview... Yawn.
WB has played 2 ranked team as of now, and for the rest of the season they have just one left, Hill. They have 27 scheduled games, only three games against a “ranked” team, two of which are FL. - 90% of the teams they play/ed are not ranked.
In my opinion - ; )
Forest Lake Schedule- Minnetonka (10), MV, Breck, Stillwater, East Ridge, WB, Andover, Elk, Roseville, Duluth, Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Cretin, Duluth(7), Park… and yawn again
Forest Lake has 27 scheduled games, one game against a “ranked AA” team. - 93% of the teams they played are not ranked. They play one ranked team the rest of the year, Duluth.
Centennial plays seven class AA top ten for comparison. So a ¼ of their teams they play are ranked. - All of the top 5 are included in their schedule.
For reference – Top 10 AA Hub Dec 11– Edina, Blake, Hill, Cent, Blaine, (FL?), Brainerd, Maple Grove, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka.
Just sayin. Not a good schedule/s between the two to prepare a team for sections, or for st st state for that matter. (sorry I choked a little when I typed that one) Coming out of the Suburban East is a tall order... sorry. Though I have my hat ready to eat.
These games are good for stats maybe, but not building strengths for those tough playoff runs in the near future. - In my opinion.
Disclaimer Protection. All data, including calculations of this topic, is obtained from various sources and has not been, and will not be, verified. All information should be independently reviewed and verified for accuracy. as I am sure Woody will gladly do.
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:54 am
by itsfoilcoach
Back on topic of goalies... There is a very strong senior class of goalies out there that no one has given any amount of time too. So let’s move on from the strong junior class for a moment shall we. So it’s no small achievement to make it to a D1 or D3 school here, or out east. Such a small percentage on a team are goalies, and scholarships, and the quality play are more and more competitive as this sport grows, but the roster spots dont. Its not easy getting that D1 or D3 spot when some schools rosters spots are limited to two on the average. (the U is an outlier, and somewhat of a waist of talented girls...why keep 5? if im right on that.) I’m sure everyone can agree on the difficulties of going D1/D3. These schools grab not just from our state, but all over our country, not to mention other country's. So let’s speak to some high points of our senior class, and the game changers that they are. Who are they, where are they going, and the teams they are currently part of. Is there a list somewhere that a guy can easily obtain that information, and can be easily separated out from other positions and such. Yup, going a little positive here on in.
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:10 pm
by massalsa
Just a quick look in the top 10 of AA:
1. Megan Smith, Edina (no commitment on HUB): 5-0 with an .877 SV% on 73 shots. She was 6-0 last season with a .975.
2. Anna Kreusel, Blake (Amherst): 11-0-1 with a .940 on 201 shots and a 1.0 GAA. 15-0 last season with a .940 on 282 shots. 3 State Championships and a runner up (Class A).
3. Hill Murray: Jr goalie
4. Centennial: 2 Jr goalies
5. Jaela O'Brien, Blaine (Hamline): 7-2-1 with a .927 on 177 shots. Last season 15-3-2 with a .932 on 309 shots. A Runner Up in AA State Championship.
6. Forest Lake, Soph goalie
7. Brainerd, Nichole Schultz: 4-1 with a .889 on 72 shots.
8. Maple Grove, Jr goalie
9. Alexa Dobchuck, Eden Prairie (Colgate): 5-4-1 with a .905 on 262 shots. Team only averaging 2.9 goals per game and has faced 3 teams in top 10 (Blake, HM, MG) and 3 more in top 20 (Elk, Farmington, Lakeville south). 21-7-2 last season with a .937 on 681 shots. 3rd place in State 2017, State Championship in 2016.
10. Abby Manlove, Minnetonka: 6-2-3 with a .952 on 229 shots. A .97 GAA.
That is a start...
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:38 pm
by woody
itsfoilcoach wrote:woody wrote:itsfoilcoach wrote:
• “Woody” - Moral of the story is itsfoilcoach saying the Suburban East is weak and that is the only reason the goalies have good stats is comical. –
Answer … YUP. Suburban East is kind of weak - Its been sliding down for a few years actually. Now I’m not saying their goalies aren’t quality net minders, because they are. But yes, both teams’ schedules are very weak conference and non-conference as well. Not one team they play are ranked in the top 20.
"Foil" Maybe do some better research next time before presenting an argument. See underlined statement above!
Just looked up both teams schedules and WBL has 8 top 20 teams on their schedule. They actually have played Elk River, Blake and Forest Lake who all have dabbled in the top 10 rankings so far this year. Forest Lake plays 9 top 20 teams. They have already played Minnetonka, Breck, and WBL.
In my opinion –
White Bears Schedule – Other than Blake (lost), Hill and FL(w) in the top AA 10 rankings. Ref provided by Hub, Dec 11. Excluding Class A (Breck 3-6) and I didn’t include U19 and U15 which you might want to include, who knows it may help your SOS. I don’t include 11-20 rankings because it drops off to fast in my book.
Elk River, Blake(2), Rochester Lourdes, Park, Grand Rapids, Hibbing, MV Flake(6?), Woodbury, Stillwater Roseville, Hill, Spring Lake Park, East Ridge, Cretin, Eastview... Yawn.
WB has played 2 ranked team as of now, and for the rest of the season they have just one left, Hill. They have 27 scheduled games, only three games against a “ranked” team, two of which are FL. - 90% of the teams they play/ed are not ranked.
In my opinion - ; )
Forest Lake Schedule- Minnetonka (10), MV, Breck, Stillwater, East Ridge, WB, Andover, Elk, Roseville, Duluth, Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Cretin, Duluth(7), Park… and yawn again
Forest Lake has 27 scheduled games, one game against a “ranked AA” team. - 93% of the teams they played are not ranked. They play one ranked team the rest of the year, Duluth.
Centennial plays seven class AA top ten for comparison. So a ¼ of their teams they play are ranked. - All of the top 5 are included in their schedule.
For reference – Top 10 AA Hub Dec 11– Edina, Blake, Hill, Cent, Blaine, (FL?), Brainerd, Maple Grove, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka.
Just sayin. Not a good schedule/s between the two to prepare a team for sections, or for st st state for that matter. (sorry I choked a little when I typed that one) Coming out of the Suburban East is a tall order... sorry. Though I have my hat ready to eat.
These games are good for stats maybe, but not building strengths for those tough playoff runs in the near future. - In my opinion.
Disclaimer Protection. All data, including calculations of this topic, is obtained from various sources and has not been, and will not be, verified. All information should be independently reviewed and verified for accuracy. as I am sure Woody will gladly do.
Good thing you put that disclosure out. You're the one that originally posted "Not one team they play are ranked in the top 20". Just was pointing out you were completely wrong again! Obviously you didn't remember what your argument was.
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:42 am
by itsfoilcoach
woody wrote:itsfoilcoach wrote:woody wrote:
In my opinion –
White Bears Schedule – Other than Blake (lost), Hill and FL(w) in the top AA 10 rankings. Ref provided by Hub, Dec 11. Excluding Class A (Breck 3-6) and I didn’t include U19 and U15 which you might want to include, who knows it may help your SOS. I don’t include 11-20 rankings because it drops off to fast in my book.
Elk River, Blake(2), Rochester Lourdes, Park, Grand Rapids, Hibbing, MV Flake(6?), Woodbury, Stillwater Roseville, Hill, Spring Lake Park, East Ridge, Cretin, Eastview... Yawn.
WB has played 2 ranked team as of now, and for the rest of the season they have just one left, Hill. They have 27 scheduled games, only three games against a “ranked” team, two of which are FL. - 90% of the teams they play/ed are not ranked.
In my opinion - ; )
Forest Lake Schedule- Minnetonka (10), MV, Breck, Stillwater, East Ridge, WB, Andover, Elk, Roseville, Duluth, Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Cretin, Duluth(7), Park… and yawn again
Forest Lake has 27 scheduled games, one game against a “ranked AA” team. - 93% of the teams they played are not ranked. They play one ranked team the rest of the year, Duluth.
Centennial plays seven class AA top ten for comparison. So a ¼ of their teams they play are ranked. - All of the top 5 are included in their schedule.
For reference – Top 10 AA Hub Dec 11– Edina, Blake, Hill, Cent, Blaine, (FL?), Brainerd, Maple Grove, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka.
Just sayin. Not a good schedule/s between the two to prepare a team for sections, or for st st state for that matter. (sorry I choked a little when I typed that one) Coming out of the Suburban East is a tall order... sorry. Though I have my hat ready to eat.
These games are good for stats maybe, but not building strengths for those tough playoff runs in the near future. - In my opinion.
Disclaimer Protection. All data, including calculations of this topic, is obtained from various sources and has not been, and will not be, verified. All information should be independently reviewed and verified for accuracy. as I am sure Woody will gladly do.
Good thing you put that disclosure out. You're the one that originally posted "Not one team they play are ranked in the top 20". Just was pointing out you were completely wrong again! Obviously you didn't remember what your argument was.
Dang fat fingers. Thanks for pointing that out. But playing semantics with rankings is always fun, you do it well. One thing about statistic, depending on what ranking, or dates posted we can go round and round. That is the fun part. Enjoy the regular season. Your season is way to short as it is. But I'm shifting gears to the Sr goalie focus...as should you.
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:13 am
by j4241
As a Blake fan, I'm a big fan of Kreusel's. There are two kinds of goalies - athletic (think Alex Stalock) - flying around making dramatic, exciting saves. I'm not the student of the current crop of high schoolers some of you are, but having seen Bothun play once, I'd put her in this category - she is very good, and it is a fun style of goaltending to watch!
Positional goalies are sometimes described as quiet - more about conservation of movement than explosive. Dubnyk is an example, but I think Carey Price would be the best current example in the NHL. Efficient movement to the right spot, with the body in the right position to maximize the chance of being hit by the puck, and good rebound control. It can be harder to pick out the one save for a goalie like this that was a game changer - pucks just don't go in much. Kreusel is a great positional goaltender. Amherst is getting a division 1 goalie, in my opinion.
Obviously, every good goalie is both athletic and positional, but I think this is a useful way to distinguish goalie styles.
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:07 am
by itsfoilcoach
itsfoilcoach wrote:Back on topic of goalies... There is a very strong senior class of goalies out there that no one has given any amount of time too. So let’s move on from the strong junior class for a moment shall we. So it’s no small achievement to make it to a D1 or D3 school here, or out east. Such a small percentage on a team are goalies, and scholarships, and the quality play are more and more competitive as this sport grows, but the roster spots dont. Its not easy getting that D1 or D3 spot when some schools rosters spots are limited to two on the average. (the U is an outlier, and somewhat of a waist of talented girls...why keep 5? if im right on that.) I’m sure everyone can agree on the difficulties of going D1/D3. These schools grab not just from our state, but all over our country, not to mention other country's. So let’s speak to some high points of our senior class, and the game changers that they are. Who are they, where are they going, and the teams they are currently part of. Is there a list somewhere that a guy can easily obtain that information, and can be easily separated out from other positions and such. Yup, going a little positive here on in.
So our Senior group for 2018 is below. Congratulations to them all. What a great achievement when you can play a game that you love in a D1 college, all the while your getting a great education that will last a lifetime.
Some interesting facts about Scholarships as you look below.
Odds of a US Girl High School Hockey Player competing in College - 5.3% chance.
High School Girls playing Hockey - 9,599
College girls playing Hockey - 1,736
Playing in College - 863 Players
% of girls Playing NCAA I - 6.3%
% Playing NCAA III - 10.2%
% of Non-US Players - 26.9% -
Ouch
http://www.scholarshipstats.com/hockey.html
Senior D1 Goalie Game Changer List Below For Minnesota 2018. LPH Hockey 12/14/17.
Lexi Baker - Lakeville South - Bemidji State
Alexa Dobchuk - Eden Prairie - Colgate
Kaity McKenzie - South Saint Paul - Cornell
As well as 4 underclassmen.
Three Jrs on the Sr Game Changer List for next year.
One tenth grader, and three 11th graders.
Bothun (10), Dobchuk (11), Frank (11), Hamett (11) Pahl (11)
Over all not many Minnesota goalies here. But when there is only 35 D1 schools in the country, we are surly represented well in the State of Hockey considering they go all over the world recruiting. See Above for %
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:58 pm
by Mnnstar
itsfoilcoach wrote:itsfoilcoach wrote:Back on topic of goalies... There is a very strong senior class of goalies out there that no one has given any amount of time too. So let’s move on from the strong junior class for a moment shall we. So it’s no small achievement to make it to a D1 or D3 school here, or out east. Such a small percentage on a team are goalies, and scholarships, and the quality play are more and more competitive as this sport grows, but the roster spots dont. Its not easy getting that D1 or D3 spot when some schools rosters spots are limited to two on the average. (the U is an outlier, and somewhat of a waist of talented girls...why keep 5? if im right on that.) I’m sure everyone can agree on the difficulties of going D1/D3. These schools grab not just from our state, but all over our country, not to mention other country's. So let’s speak to some high points of our senior class, and the game changers that they are. Who are they, where are they going, and the teams they are currently part of. Is there a list somewhere that a guy can easily obtain that information, and can be easily separated out from other positions and such. Yup, going a little positive here on in.
So our Senior group for 2018 is below. Congratulations to them all. What a great achievement when you can play a game that you love in a D1 college, all the while your getting a great education that will last a lifetime.
Some interesting facts about Scholarships as you look below.
Odds of a US Girl High School Hockey Player competing in College - 5.3% chance.
High School Girls playing Hockey - 9,599
College girls playing Hockey - 1,736
Playing in College - 863 Players
% of girls Playing NCAA I - 6.3%
% Playing NCAA III - 10.2%
% of Non-US Players - 26.9% -
Ouch
http://www.scholarshipstats.com/hockey.html
Senior D1 Goalie Game Changer List Below For Minnesota 2018. LPH Hockey 12/14/17.
Lexi Baker - Lakeville South - Bemidji State
Alexa Dobchuk - Eden Prairie - Colgate
Kaity McKenzie - South Saint Paul - Cornell
As well as 4 underclassmen.
Three Jrs on the Sr Game Changer List for next year.
One tenth grader, and three 11th graders.
Bothun (10), Dobchuk (11), Frank (11), Hamett (11) Pahl (11)
Over all not many Minnesota goalies here. But when there is only 35 D1 schools in the country, we are surly represented well in the State of Hockey considering they go all over the world recruiting. See Above for %
Add 9th grader Skyler Vetter LN Gophers
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:30 am
by oldgoalie85
Forest Lake Josie B with another shut out. FL 3 WBL 0
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:07 am
by IceHiker
Not sure if she has been listed here but we should not over look the Junior goalie from Roseau, Kiana Flaig. If memory serves me correctly (but I am getting older) she was the goalie in the U12 A state tournament that faced 150+ shots and held her team to a second place finish. Roseau won a big game last night against Eagan - which everyone on this board had them to lose.
Stats for 2018:
GP - 13
SOG - 236
SV - 225
GA - 11
GAA - 0.83 - Leads the State
SV % - .953 - 2nd behind Bothun from FLake
Shutouts - 8
I wonder where she will be attending college in 2 years?
Fact or Fiction?
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:49 am
by Mnnstar
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:17 pm
by woody
IceHiker wrote:Not sure if she has been listed here but we should not over look the Junior goalie from Roseau, Kiana Flaig. If memory serves me correctly (but I am getting older) she was the goalie in the U12 A state tournament that faced 150+ shots and held her team to a second place finish. Roseau won a big game last night against Eagan - which everyone on this board had them to lose.
Stats for 2018:
GP - 13
SOG - 236
SV - 225
GA - 11
GAA - 0.83 - Leads the State
SV % - .953 - 2nd behind Bothun from FLake
Shutouts - 8
I wonder where she will be attending college in 2 years?
My guess is no where unless it's D3. She is only averaging 18 shots a game so she really isn't being tested that often.
Looks like most of the girls in the top ten don't average over 25 shots a game. Which leads to me thinking that is why their save percentage is so high? You don't see boys having save percentages in the 95% range. Wonder why that is? My guess is too many rainbows not enough real quality shots.