State Tourney Format

cakeater13 · Post by **cakeater13** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:57 pm

qwerty... Nice, "no one has ever complained about the BCS'' haha. Computers would not be a bad idea, but the BCS doesn't work too well, and the way we have it set up now works out just fine. Everyone comes back after a year anyway right? I think it would be awesome to do the coaches voting for the best teams but then again you have conspiracy. Northen teams get absolutely no respect in almost any sport. Also, some coaches are friends and would rank lesser teams teams higher than others. Another thing about ranking not so good teams better would be that many coaches would do this so that their team would have to play a not-so-good team in order to better their chances of moving on. Many coaches would do this rather than actually rank the teams based on how good they think they are.

synergy100 · Post by **synergy100** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:13 pm

I could be wrong, I think qwerty was being a bit sarcastic <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:36 pm

Uh, yeah, pretty sure he was.<img src="http://www.minnhock.com/biggrin.gif"/> See what happens when those emoticons aren't used? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> Lee ____________ Message Board arsonist since 2005

HockeyMan05 · Post by **HockeyMan05** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:34 pm

This is a Far-off Exageration but one I would enjoy: Think about if they added one game between the two champions. I wouldn't just assume every year that the AA team would win because as we all know during the regular season there is no class seperation. I realize that some years it just wouldn't work, and this is why I consider it a Far-off Exageration. I know people would not approve a game like this saying it would take away the "champion" image of the loosing team. But in recent years I'm sure people have speculated on who was truely the better team at the end of the year. Last Year For Example: Warroad vs. Holy Angels (Not one person would say Warroad wouldn't have had a chance) Once again is a Far-off Exageration of mine

limasbravo · Post by **limasbravo** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:22 pm

I'm very content with the format it is right now. Back when they moved from the one class format I was completely against it. Now many years later I think it's a great thing. Any more teams and you take all the atmosphere away from the sectionals. The A and AA classes work very well.

Renegade Ram · Post by **Renegade Ram** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:08 pm

Once again the Man05 shows his brilliance and timeliness as your plan has been discussed every year that this board has been in existance. And yes, too bad they don't do it just for S & G's. The overall consensus in the past on the match-up was the AA would win 7 out of 10 times. Probably not too far off. Unless of course, you factor in the NDTP.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:07 pm

How about if the state is divided into 8 regions. All teams in each region play a tournament to determine a representative for the State Tournament. The 8 regional representatives can then play a final tournament. The winner of the final tournament can then be referred to as the State Champion. A new State Champion can be determined every year.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:31 pm

Thats a pretty radical approach Knowlze. I dont think anyone would ever try that.

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:22 pm

Yes, probably way too radical for the MSHSL. Anyway, if implemented, how would we be able to discuss which which team is the Champion, there would be only one.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:13 pm

Obviously, the MSHSL felt they needed to improve on your suggestion. I will admit to being a recovering Class AA supremicst. However, during my supremicst period, I hardly ever watched a Class A game. I followed the Class A tournament closley the last 2 years for the first time because there were a few teams in it that I had a pretty close connection with. If there was any supremicst or one classitis left in me, it was gone after the Warroad vs Totino Grace game. That game never happens if we go back to the old way. In addition, at least for me, the Class A tournament did/does nothing to lesson my enjoyment of the AA tournament. In fact, I now can let the A make the AA even more enjoyable. Try it. If you give it a chance, it may just transcend the "need" to have the "one true champion."

PAMESH · Post by **PAMESH** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:10 pm

Knowlze I love your idea One problem I see is one of those regional tournaments might produce the State winner over and over and then people would start saying that they are in a tougher region and they are better then the other teams in the State Tournament. Having balanced regions would be very important. Any ideas.

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:42 pm

Warroad vs Totino, great game, but we can only imagine Warroad vs Holy Angels. My argument is not about the quality of teams/games in the tournament. There are mostly enjoyable games in each class, as there were with only one class. However, if the object is to determine a Champion, there is only one way, Knowlze's New Format. If the object is many enjoyable games, maybe we need more classes (my concern). Finally, it is not a "need" to have one class, it is only a preference to have a Championship that means something and can be remembered. My guess is that the old timers would have a better chance of naming the winner in 1969, than either champion in 1999. PAMESH, anyone can say what they want, but only one team will have the trophy.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:59 pm

I understand the desire to go back to the way it was. I had a fit when they announced the 2 class tournament format. It took a while but I am over it. I think we all need to get over it because it isnt going to change. It isnt going to change because there are way too many people who wanted it this way and who like it this way for the reasons set out in my previous post. But the biggest reason it aint gonna change....money.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:30 pm

Actually I would bet the MSHSL makes far less money than they use to. For example; attendance for 2 classes barely exceeds attendance when it was a 1 class afair, but now they need 2 buildings to have the tourney and Marriucci ain't cheap. Section 1 and whatever section Hill Murray was in played their championships on the same night in front of 15,000 at the Met Center, now between the 2 sections I doubt they get half that. Semi finals that filled the lower bowl barely draw 2000 anymore. The last few years of a single class tourney I could sell my finals tickets for 20-40 bucks a piece, now face value to $15 is a good price. Both metro papers had nice pre tournament sections, now they barely give it a page. Why? Because they can't sell the advertising to make it worth their expense. I like the 2 class set up, I miss it the way it was but like Packerboy said it's not going back. Just a hunch, but we'll see 3 classes before we'll ever see a 1 class tourney again. It's just the way things seem to go. Just please don't give me the BS about 1 more game between the 2 campions, the A champ had the option to play AA and didn't. They have nothing to gripe about.

topshelf11 · Post by **topshelf11** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:11 pm

Why would you want to dilute the meaning of making it to the X? 8 is the perfect number

vandalhockey · Post by **vandalhockey** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:59 pm

The tournament is great the way it is. Why change a system that doesn't have any huge flaws. I know some people want the tourney to be seeded, but I saw screw that...ya need to win 3 games in a row to win anyway. The only thing I would like to see is the two champions play on Sunday for an overall title. I believe from 1970-1980 state basketball had the A and AA champs play and if I looked right it was 6-4 in favor of AA. They stopped doing the game because the crowds were getting smaller and smaller, it had nothing to do with the games themself.

PuckRanger · Post by **PuckRanger** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:57 pm

I posted this a while back in another thread, but perhaps the MSHSL should revert back to the 7 section system that was used until 1975. The 8th section (Section 3) was a "backdoor" section that was a playoff between all the section losers. Then if you have two of the states best in one section, the loser in the sectional game can play its way back into the state tournament by defeating some of the rest of the states better teams.

puck14 · Post by **puck14** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:04 am

There has been a few people to say, "if it aint broke, dont fix it". I do agree that it aint broke, but everybody said major league baseball was just fine, they put the wild card in, everybody was pissed off about it, and its turned out to be a great addition. Just proof that a slight change could make all the difference in the world. I know some people are not going to like my suggestion, and I am not trying to start a private public pissing match but I think this would help not only the tourney, but high school hockey as a whole. Private schools have no place in class A hockey. When a team can virtually be made up of kids who left AA schools to play at a single A private school, that is not right. You can tell me all you want that it is not true, but it is. I am no expert and I will tell you right now I did not go and research this, but when looking at a team like Rochester Lourdes for example (not to single only them out, but it is easiest to see). The city of Rochester has 3 public high schools, Century, Mayo, and JM, who all happen to be class AA, and one private school, Lourdes which is class A. Now just because Lourdes is a smaller school, these kids who have grown up as AA hockey players are able to join together and become a class A powerhouse. I am not against private schools one bit, and I know that the majority of these kids have reasons they wanted to leave the school they originally played for. I do have a problem though with a kid screwing his original high school team for selfish reasons. I know all this seems off the original topic, but I needed to back up my point of private schools not belonging in single A hockey. Now what I think would be right, is to eliminate private schools from single A. Give them the option to play AA if they want to. If they do not, they get their own state tournament, 4 teams that play at Marriucci, or Ridder. I don't see this getting a lot of publicity or fan support, but then again a private school that does not think they can compete at the AA level might benefit from getting a chance to play at the "mini show". It would also push for teams who have a chance to compete at the AA level to actually do it, and take the chance of playing in front of a sold out X rather then a half filled Ridder. What is all this going to do? By eliminating private schools from single A, single A will actually be what it should be. Small schools that have a chance to dream big. If any of you have had the chance to play in the state tournament you will know the incredible feeling. If you can look at your buddys in the locker room at the state tournament that you can remember playing with when you were 5 years old, that makes the accomplishment that much more important. I know it looks like Im saying everyone should make it and all will be happy, but its not what im saying at all. What I am trying to say is if you have a format like we do now with A and AA, it needs to be done right. I actually would not mind seeing them get rid of the Class A tournament altogether and making it a one class 16 team tourney. But because that is not how it is structured now, it needs to be looked at why they have class A, and class AA. If you really look at the reason they made class A, it is to give a small school a chance who otherwise would not make it, not to give a private school power a cakewalk to the tournament. All I really wanted to do with this was give a different perspective on the public vs. private debate, and one that nobody has probably considered.

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:05 am

Puckguy has the second best alternative. However, why does only the section loser get a second chance. What about the team that plays its worst game in the first round of the State Tuournament, they don't get a second chance, or a team that gets upset in an earlier section round? If some teams get a second chance, they all should. Again, if it is about determining a State Champion, Knowlze's New Format (KNF) is the best way. If it is about kids playing in a State Tournament and/or fans watching more "good hockey games", maybe there are not enough classes. Unfortunately, it appears more people on this board value the tournament experience. May as well change the name to - The Minnesota State Showcase of Good Hockey Teams. Personally, I like an end of the season competition for a meaningful Championship, and no second chances makes it even more exciting. The old HS tournaments, nothing better.

puck14 · Post by **puck14** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:51 am

knowlze is right about losing and your done. that is what makes high school hockey playoffs so exciting. if h.s. hockey switched to a 3 game playoff, 9 times out of 10 the team that should win, would. but that would take away the fact that an unknown could knock off a 1 seed on any given night. you cant crack under the pressure if you want to make it to the show. the tournament experience is as good as you can get for a high school athlete, there is no way they could add any more teams though. 16 teams is plenty, any more will take away from it being such an accomplishment. as a fan perspective though, 16 teams is about perfect. 4 days of hockey pretty much all day. Also, if they were to ever switch to a one class 16 team tournament what do you think the breakdown would be of what is now A and AA teams? basically taking say for instance section 7, all class A and AA teams are put in one big section, section 7 north (range area) and south (duluth area) the range winner goes and the duluth winner goes. i think it would be a lot more even then people would think. on some years i think it could even get close to 50/50. with a class a team winning it every 3 or 4 years.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:24 pm

Well Knowlze, I have given it a lot of thought and I still think that KNF is just too radical. Its never been tried and ...it would be just to hard to execute. This is making me hungry for some KFC.

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:58 pm

Being the flexible guy that I am, maybe we have to approach this incrementally. How about if the top 2 teams are taken fron each section, ranked, and played down to a champion. MSHSL will have paying fans for 16 teams. The "participation" people will have 16 teams participating. Still many games for you guys that want to see "many" great hockey games. Then next year full KNF can be implemented.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:46 pm

Did I read somewhere that the MSHSL is considering seeding the top 4 at the State tourney and then a random draw as to who they play in the first round???????

oldschool · Post by **oldschool** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:08 pm

I want to suggest again that the state tournement is the Minnesota State High School League's way to determine a State champion. ........................lets look at college football for a minute; a total of 3 different champions could be named in division 1a..................... Ap poll, espn/usatoday, BCS........soooooo the state tournement maybe isn't perfect, but the bottom line is: if you are good enough to win it, you won't lose in an upset.............give it up.........this is the excitement, at any time a 7 loss team could knock off the undefeated. saying this, maybe pagestat should award its own champion...................or lph etc..........in my mind, the best team should be able to win all of its games regardless, bad game or good game..........lose and its done, this is why we call it a sport and not something else............sometimes you get a deer, sometimes you don't, sometimes you get a 10 pounder, sometimes not,, all about "sport".

PuckRanger · Post by **PuckRanger** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:17 pm

puck14, I just want to point out that in your example of section 7 that if you split north and south like you say, there will be one AA team (Grand Rapids) in the north (Iron range) part. The south (Duluth area) would only have 2 (East & Cloquet). So it's quite likely an A team would win one or the other every year. This would pretty much put the sections back they way there were with the one class sections (Duluth area was section 2 and the range was section 7).

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