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MrBoDangles wrote: When you're scheduling those type of teams and Shattuck St. Mary(national champs) and national powers from the east coast...... Why is it so hard for you to get this? STA has been THE team consistently in the top ten of the all school rankings.

Explain to the people why sponsors and players now want to bail from STA. I would bet that they know it is messed up what they are doing to small, community based, programs.

Pure shame it has become...

What is the "this" you speak of? What I see is a team who is scheduling the best private school competition they can and creating the best schedule they can competition wise to help their players become better players. It has nothing to do with class (system wise) and everything to do with ability. They know, as we all do, that the class you are assigned has nothing to do with talent.

If they wanted, they could easily take the two non-mshsl teams and 4 private schools off their schedule and find 6 AA teams to play, heck maybe play CDH twice, if their goal was to get a "AA schedule." But it's not, nor is it what they have.

A team like Eden Prairie, on the other hand, has a "AA schedule"; 30 of their 31 games against AA teams.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote: When you're scheduling those type of teams and Shattuck St. Mary(national champs) and national powers from the east coast...... Why is it so hard for you to get this? STA has been THE team consistently in the top ten of the all school rankings.

Explain to the people why sponsors and players now want to bail from STA. I would bet that they know it is messed up what they are doing to small, community based, programs.

Pure shame it has become...

What is the "this" you speak of? What I see is a team who is scheduling the best private school competition they can and creating the best schedule they can competition wise to help their players become better players. It has nothing to do with class (system wise) and everything to do with ability. They know, as we all do, that the class you are assigned has nothing to do with talent.

If they wanted, they could easily take the two non-mshsl teams and 4 private schools off their schedule and find 6 AA teams to play, heck maybe play CDH twice, if their goal was to get a "AA schedule." But it's not, nor is it what they have.

A team like Eden Prairie, on the other hand, has a "AA schedule"; 30 of their 31 games against AA teams.

Do you understand the concept of moving up to play like competition? Playing A.... because there might be one or two teams that could possibly keep the team from a championship is a joke. It should of been a no brainer for STA to move up. Nobody is going to want to play for this team to just go out and sandbag.

It's just bringing shame to the program.

MrBoDangles wrote: Do you understand the concept of moving up to play like competition? Playing A.... because there might be one or two teams that could possibly keep the team from a championship is a joke. It should of been a no brainer for STA to move up. Nobody is going to want to play for this team to just go out and sandbag.

It's just bringing shame to the program.

The beauty of our system is that you can play anyone who wants to play you regardless of which class you were assigned based on your enrollment. In a tier system, you'd be completely right, but the state has said they don't want that. The real shame is that teams are allowed to opt up and we are in this situation. What has been created in MN hockey saying that the best team has to be AA is ridiculous.

As of now, on the list of top programs Lee is putting together, there are 10 current A teams ranked above St Thomas. Why can't you just congratulate a program for doing well? There are many more dominant teams in class A, St Thomas is just good right now. And because they happen to be private, let's crucify them. When other public school teams show dominance, they are fine there because they're public.

Go to Minnesota HS Hockey Forum(older topics)

You will see the same (avoiding the facts) from 2008. Cadets topic at the top of the page.

Time for the sandbagging to end

HShockeywatcher wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote: Do you understand the concept of moving up to play like competition? Playing A.... because there might be one or two teams that could possibly keep the team from a championship is a joke. It should of been a no brainer for STA to move up. Nobody is going to want to play for this team to just go out and sandbag.

It's just bringing shame to the program.

The beauty of our system is that you can play anyone who wants to play you regardless of which class you were assigned based on your enrollment. In a tier system, you'd be completely right, but the state has said they don't want that. The real shame is that teams are allowed to opt up and we are in this situation. What has been created in MN hockey saying that the best team has to be AA is ridiculous.

As of now, on the list of top programs Lee is putting together, there are 10 current A teams ranked above St Thomas. Why can't you just congratulate a program for doing well? There are many more dominant teams in class A, St Thomas is just good right now. And because they happen to be private, let's crucify them. When other public school teams show dominance, they are fine there because they're public.

If those ten teams currently felt confident scheduling Delbaton and Shattuck St. Mary you would have a POINT.

Get a clue!

MrBoDangles wrote: If those ten teams currently felt confident scheduling Delbaton and Shattuck St. Mary you would have a POINT.

Get a clue!

How many public schools have those prep schools played? If they would, I'm sure there's a handful of teams that would be happy to schedule them. The ability for a public program to also travel out east may be an issue as well.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote: If those ten teams currently felt confident scheduling Delbaton and Shattuck St. Mary you would have a POINT.

Get a clue!

How many public schools have those prep schools played? If they would, I'm sure there's a handful of teams that would be happy to schedule them. The ability for a public program to also travel out east may be an issue as well.

Mr. Circle Talker,

Yes, how many small town A programs have they played?

xwildfan wrote:

youngblood08 wrote:STA did apply to move up, they were going to play in the SEC next season. The Head Master at the school nixed it.

Also heard that Headmaster (Tom Misch) and AD (Jack Zahr) refused coaches request to move up to AA. Among reasons cited were that they didn't want STA to be known first and foremost as a "hockey school."

The business aspect at STA must be really ugly! I find it strange that coaches, players, parents, alumni, and financial supporters want them to move up and that these guys don't want to. They don't want to be known as a Hockey power, but are fine being the big bullies in class A? Is this a Christian based school or is that a storefront? Do they know that they are smashing boyhood hopes of small town kids from northern Minnesota and other small communities across this state? It would be great to see a SPA, Johnson, SLP, Totino, etc to have a chance in 4A.......

You have shown your dominance, now it is time to give others a CHANCE. Where's your conscience?

MrBoDangles wrote:Do they know that they are smashing boyhood hopes of small town kids from northern Minnesota and other small communities across this state?

I think I am going to cry.

The core of the issue is the option to move up. MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools to exploit the lower tier. If MSHSL would simply not allow schools to opt up this would no longer be an issue. You would end up with a small school and large school champion. Now I know there will be complaints about the citites being dominated by private schools, but those are the majority of small schools int the ciities I believe. I am an outstate guy so don't know the demographics of the cities that well. I think the MSHSL originally put the opt up in to soothe the transition to a two class system that wasn't teired, but it has run its course and ended up creating the very two tiered tourny it was trying to avoid. Just my two cents, if it is a two class system based on enrollment then it should be a two class system based on enrollment.

This thread is an interesting experiment in seeing how many times people will repeat the exact same things.

Maybe the 7,000th slight re-wording will bring about an epiphany.

Guess that means there's nothing left to say.

ogelthorpe wrote:The core of the issue is the option to move up. MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools to exploit the lower tier. If MSHSL would simply not allow schools to opt up this would no longer be an issue. You would end up with a small school and large school champion. Now I know there will be complaints about the citites being dominated by private schools, but those are the majority of small schools int the ciities I believe. I am an outstate guy so don't know the demographics of the cities that well. I think the MSHSL originally put the opt up in to soothe the transition to a two class system that wasn't teired, but it has run its course and ended up creating the very two tiered tourny it was trying to avoid. Just my two cents, if it is a two class system based on enrollment then it should be a two class system based on enrollment.

Nothing for him MrBoDangles?

karl(east) wrote:This thread is an interesting experiment in seeing how many times people will repeat the exact same things.

Maybe the 7,000th slight re-wording will bring about an epiphany.

karl, you are right. I'm trying really hard to only participate in actual discussions. There have been some very good discussions on here with good information.

Ugh karl, you made me do it again...I've already said that

ogelthorpe wrote:The core of the issue is the option to move up. MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools to exploit the lower tier. If MSHSL would simply not allow schools to opt up this would no longer be an issue. You would end up with a small school and large school champion. Now I know there will be complaints about the citites being dominated by private schools, but those are the majority of small schools int the ciities I believe. I am an outstate guy so don't know the demographics of the cities that well. I think the MSHSL originally put the opt up in to soothe the transition to a two class system that wasn't teired, but it has run its course and ended up creating the very two tiered tourny it was trying to avoid. Just my two cents, if it is a two class system based on enrollment then it should be a two class system based on enrollment.

"MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools(STA) to exploit the lower tier" ~ogelthorpe

He said it perfectly!

STA is exploiting the system to it's full potential

ogelthorpe is from St. Cloud and plans on having his kid/kids attend Cathedral. He has a current St. Cloud A Squirt.

His motive is that SCC will be able to do the same...

His opinion is that BSM and Hill Murray should not be able to play AA.


HSHW..........?

MrBoDangles wrote:

ogelthorpe wrote:The core of the issue is the option to move up. MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools to exploit the lower tier. If MSHSL would simply not allow schools to opt up this would no longer be an issue. You would end up with a small school and large school champion. Now I know there will be complaints about the citites being dominated by private schools, but those are the majority of small schools int the ciities I believe. I am an outstate guy so don't know the demographics of the cities that well. I think the MSHSL originally put the opt up in to soothe the transition to a two class system that wasn't teired, but it has run its course and ended up creating the very two tiered tourny it was trying to avoid. Just my two cents, if it is a two class system based on enrollment then it should be a two class system based on enrollment.

"MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools(STA) to exploit the lower tier" ~ogelthorpe

ogelthorpe is from St. Cloud and plans on having his kid/kids attend Cathedral. He has a current St. Cloud A Squirt.

Isn't it great to live in America where we have "chocies"?

Sure hope the voucher system can gain some better traction here in Minnesota, as you will see even more families making a different school choice. Seems to be a growing trend in many other states lately.

High Flyer wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:

ogelthorpe wrote:The core of the issue is the option to move up. MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools to exploit the lower tier. If MSHSL would simply not allow schools to opt up this would no longer be an issue. You would end up with a small school and large school champion. Now I know there will be complaints about the citites being dominated by private schools, but those are the majority of small schools int the ciities I believe. I am an outstate guy so don't know the demographics of the cities that well. I think the MSHSL originally put the opt up in to soothe the transition to a two class system that wasn't teired, but it has run its course and ended up creating the very two tiered tourny it was trying to avoid. Just my two cents, if it is a two class system based on enrollment then it should be a two class system based on enrollment.

"MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools(STA) to exploit the lower tier" ~ogelthorpe

ogelthorpe is from St. Cloud and plans on having his kid/kids attend Cathedral. He has a current St. Cloud A Squirt.

Isn't it great to live in America where we have "chocies"?

Sure hope the voucher system can gain some better traction here in Minnesota, as you will see even more families making a different school choice. Seems to be a growing trend in many other states lately.

"Choices" are great!

Choosing to stay down at a level lower than your capabilities, TO collect trophies, is a shameful one.

We all know that the faculty from STA are reading this........ Could we get some reasoning from YOU?

MrBoDangles wrote:

High Flyer wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote: "MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools(STA) to exploit the lower tier" ~ogelthorpe

ogelthorpe is from St. Cloud and plans on having his kid/kids attend Cathedral. He has a current St. Cloud A Squirt.

Isn't it great to live in America where we have "chocies"?

Sure hope the voucher system can gain some better traction here in Minnesota, as you will see even more families making a different school choice. Seems to be a growing trend in many other states lately.

"Choices" are great!

Choosing to stay down at a level lower than your capabilities, TO collect trophies, is a shameful one.

We all know that the faculty from STA are reading this........ Could we get some reasoning from YOU?

Thump!!! Did you hear that? I just fell out of my chair after reading that Bodangs is interested in getting some reasoning from me!!!!

I will have to put some thought into this one before I post a response

High Flyer wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:

High Flyer wrote: Isn't it great to live in America where we have "chocies"?

Sure hope the voucher system can gain some better traction here in Minnesota, as you will see even more families making a different school choice. Seems to be a growing trend in many other states lately.

"Choices" are great!

Choosing to stay down at a level lower than your capabilities, TO collect trophies, is a shameful one.

We all know that the faculty from STA are reading this........ Could we get some reasoning from YOU?

Thump!!! Did you hear that? I just fell out of my chair after reading that Bodangs is interested in getting some reasoning from me!!!!

I will have to put some thought into this one before I post a response

Could we get some reasoning from the F-A-C-U-L-T-Y.

Are you the choir teacher?

MrBoDangles wrote:

High Flyer wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:
"Choices" are great!

Choosing to stay down at a level lower than your capabilities, TO collect trophies, is a shameful one.

We all know that the faculty from STA are reading this........ Could we get some reasoning from YOU?

Thump!!! Did you hear that? I just fell out of my chair after reading that Bodangs is interested in getting some reasoning from me!!!!

I will have to put some thought into this one before I post a response

Could we get some reasoning from the F-A-C-U-L-T-Y.

Are you the choir teacher?

Yea, I can see it now, the STA faculty actually reading the hockey forum and then taking the time to respond to MrBodangles-the voice of reason...

and yes, I'm the glee club teacher

Sixteen pages of ranting and it didn't get locked down! (yet) Karl is right, and I'm not expecting an epiphany but my two cents....
This really is an interesting topic but not from the "dashing dreams of the poor, small school boys from Up North" perspective.
Hockey (extracurricular) is a piece of the educational puzzle we try to provide our kids. IMO, the MSHSL modified the one class format as a means to provide additional extracurricular involvement (i.e.more kids participating) in small programs that were stagnant or shrinking. On that point, many small private and publics have accomplished the goal.
All of the privates that qualify for single A and want to stay there are fine with me. They are playing within the rules and it is good for kids in the small schools to know there are people and institutions in the real world that have advantages. You can either complain and say "not fair" or get better.
That said, those same people and institutions are held to higher standards and judged by how they present and apply themselves.
The Pioneer Press article during the State tournament is a case in point - the STA coaches' comments on "envy" and a player noting how they are "penalized" because of criticism were nonsensical and further enhanced the ivory tower perception.
Kids at all schools work hard, take advanced/college classes, volunteer in their community/church, work a part-time job, play multiple sports, etc, etc.
I don't think it is hate or jealousy, but rather a sport with blue collar roots calling it how they see it.....to quote RFK and paraphrase Luke, "For of those to whom much is given, much is required." There you go - politics, religion and economics all in the same sentence!
Right or wrong, perception is reality and the perception of the privates in the hockey community is that much has been given...and they want some more as easily as possible.

nota612er wrote:Sixteen pages of ranting and it didn't get locked down! (yet) Karl is right, and I'm not expecting an epiphany but my two cents....
This really is an interesting topic but not from the "dashing dreams of the poor, small school boys from Up North" perspective.
Hockey (extracurricular) is a piece of the educational puzzle we try to provide our kids. IMO, the MSHSL modified the one class format as a means to provide additional extracurricular involvement (i.e.more kids participating) in small programs that were stagnant or shrinking. On that point, many small private and publics have accomplished the goal.
All of the privates that qualify for single A and want to stay there are fine with me. They are playing within the rules and it is good for kids in the small schools to know there are people and institutions in the real world that have advantages. You can either complain and say "not fair" or get better.
That said, those same people and institutions are held to higher standards and judged by how they present and apply themselves.
The Pioneer Press article during the State tournament is a case in point - the STA coaches' comments on "envy" and a player noting how they are "penalized" because of criticism were nonsensical and further enhanced the ivory tower perception.
Kids at all schools work hard, take advanced/college classes, volunteer in their community/church, work a part-time job, play multiple sports, etc, etc.
I don't think it is hate or jealousy, but rather a sport with blue collar roots calling it how they see it.....to quote RFK and paraphrase Luke, "For of those to whom much is given, much is required." There you go - politics, religion and economics all in the same sentence!
Right or wrong, perception is reality and the perception of the privates in the hockey community is that much has been given...and they want some more as easily as possible.

The "dashing the dream" part.

Fergus Falls, Thief River Falls, Hermantown, Spring Lake Park..... These programs all work their tails off for to be able to try to make it to the state tournament. STA, which is more of a class AA type private school than the private schools that have already opted up just flick the switch. They build a rink, bring in some coaches, offer the world to some recruits and bingo. For you to say they're fine where they're at is pretty much saying......... just give them the trophy.

Is this advantage not a little extreme by playing in CLASS A?

Would it be fine in your mind for BSM or Hill Murray to drop down to take the A title most years?

When does within the rules become making a mockery of the rules? Yes, that's what they're doing

No, it was not an epiphany.

High Flyer wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:

High Flyer wrote: Thump!!! Did you hear that? I just fell out of my chair after reading that Bodangs is interested in getting some reasoning from me!!!!

I will have to put some thought into this one before I post a response

Could we get some reasoning from the F-A-C-U-L-T-Y.

Are you the choir teacher?

Yea, I can see it now, the STA faculty actually reading the hockey forum and then taking the time to respond to MrBodangles-the voice of reason...

and yes, I'm the glee club teacher

You think they're not?

MrBoDangles wrote:They build a rink, bring in some coaches, offer the world to some recruits and bingo.

"They build a rink..." At least the taxpayers (or Ralph Engelstad) didn't have to pay for it!

"...bring in some coaches.." Too bad other teams don't have coaches! How unfair is that?

"...offer the world to some recruits.... "If they offered the "world" surely it would include girls, and they would have to be HOT!

"...and bingo..." They win the State Tournament just like that! With ice to skate on, coaches to coach them, and "the world" (sans girls of course) how could they NOT win it? Maybe we should just give them next year's trophy right now!

Wow. This isn't complicated at all. The perspectives really fall into two camps.

1) STA, and other metro private schools, have significant inherent advantages that allow them to be more successful at hockey. These advantages are not available to smaller public schools. STA, or any other school that is readily pursuing those advantages, should voluntarily opt up to play in AA, where there is GENERALLY stronger competition. Anything else is shameful, as they are not honoring the intent of the two-class system.

2) STA, and other metro private schools, have significant inherent advantages that allow them to be more successful at hockey. These advantages are not available to smaller public schools. But that's cool. Any of these schools should be cheered for exploiting these advantages to the fullest. They should try to win as many games and trophies as they can in Class A. That way, they can feel good about themselves and claim that it is all about development, character, etc.

I'm sorry, but the honorable stance on this does not require further elaboration.

"MSHSL has created a two tier system with the ability for private schools(STA) to exploit the lower tier" ~ogelthorpe

He said it perfectly!

STA is exploiting the system to it's full potential

ogelthorpe is from St. Cloud and plans on having his kid/kids attend Cathedral. He has a current St. Cloud A Squirt.

His motive is that SCC will be able to do the same...

His opinion is that BSM and Hill Murray should not be able to play AA.


HSHW..........?[/quote]

You are right about me being from St Cloud and having a squirt A, should I be worried you know that much about me? I am not a regular poster.

My kid will be attending public school so no bias that way. I don't think SCC is in position anyway to exploit the system, they are fed by a middle of the road youth hockey association that also supplies two public high schools.

My point is if you had two classes with everybody playing by enrollment you would have two strong classes and then you wouldn't have to have schools opt up to keep the competitive balance.