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That's my point though. I know how the numbers game works and know exactly how to skew stats to your favor. What I'm asking is why he'd get all state if he really was just the average goalie we think he is? The people picking the all state teams don't just look at the stats and pick the guys, there's so much more to look at, you know that. Which is what I'm asking. Why would a guy who beats up on bad teams (view all stats you presented) get such an honor over better teams? There are plenty of goalies from better AA teams who had much better records and much better SOS. What don't we know?

HShockeywatcher wrote: The people picking the all state teams don't just look at the stats and pick the guys, there's so much more to look at, you know that.

In fact, that IS what happens. You have to understand that in order to vote for the AP All-State team, all you need to do is be a sports editor or sports director at newspaper, tv or radio station that is an AP subscriber.

A good look at a ballot is here:

http://www.wkbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=4606822

So the guy who writes sports in Worthington, and the guy who does sports at the radio station in Breckenridge, and everyone in between, has a vote. They don't see everybody play, they look at a ballot and see the flashiest stats or the most familiar name, and they vote. Many of them are in towns that don't even have high school hockey. It's not much more scientific than having baseball fans vote for the all-star team.

So a guy like Crandall, with flashy stats and a couple state tournament appearances, will often get picked over better players.

goalieguy1 wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote: The people picking the all state teams don't just look at the stats and pick the guys, there's so much more to look at, you know that.

In fact, that IS what happens. You have to understand that in order to vote for the AP All-State team, all you need to do is be a sports editor or sports director at newspaper, tv or radio station that is an AP subscriber.

A good look at a ballot is here:

http://www.wkbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=4606822

So the guy who writes sports in Worthington, and the guy who does sports at the radio station in Breckenridge, and everyone in between, has a vote. They don't see everybody play, they look at a ballot and see the flashiest stats or the most familiar name, and they vote. Many of them are in towns that don't even have high school hockey. It's not much more scientific than having baseball fans vote for the all-star team.

So a guy like Crandall, with flashy stats and a couple state tournament appearances, will often get picked over better players.

That ballot was missing some good players.

Wow. That's sad.

goalieguy1 wrote:We've had this discussion before, but the consensus of most scouts is that Crandall is an average goalie at best. He's been protected by playing on very good teams. I remember one scout at their section final saying that if STA and Red Wing had changed goalies, STA would have won 12-0, instead of it being 3-2 after two periods.

His numbers are impressive because STA dominates a lot of the poorer teams on their schedule. For example, last year he had these games:

SSP - 1 goal on 11 shots
Sibley - 1 goal on 10 shots
Tartan - a 12-save shutout
Simley - an 11-save shutout
Tartan again - 1 goal on 11 shots

So his stats get padded without breaking a sweat, but then when he faces good teams you get:

Duluth Marshall - 4 on 33 shots
Cretin - 5 on 22 shots
Edina - 4 on 32 shots
Burnsville - 2 on 18 shots
Brainerd - 3 on 18 shots
Hill-Murray - 4 on 28 shots

I realize he had another good games against H-M, along with a couple others, but the bottom line is that he's totally a product of the great STA teams of recent years...if the team hadn't carried him to state (where he got outplayed by the Hermantown goalie) there would be no talk of him being "all-state" - and it's highly unlikely he'll be any factor at all in the USHL. I don't want to sound like I'm ripping on him personally, he's probably a great kid, but he's absolutely an ordinary goalie.

ORDINARY GOALIES DON'T GET SELECTED FOR THE NATIONAL 16'S, ESPECIALLY COMING FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA.

ORDINARY GOALIES DON'T GET SELECTED FOR THE NATIONAL 17'S.

GOALIEGUY1 - CONSIDER THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION (UMD RECRUIT) HJELLE & AARON CRANDALL FACED THE PAST 2 YEARS AT THE ADV 16 & 17 MN FINAL 51 TRY-OUTS...LIKE JOE HOWE...WHO NO DOUBT WILL BE A DIVISION 1 GOALIE...AND HAS ALREADY BEEN DRAFTED BY WATERLOO as a sophomore...OR MIKE LEE...THE AA STATE CHAMPION sophomore GOALIE FROM ROSEAU...AND SEVERAL OTHER 90 GOALIES WHO ARE EXCELLENT...so give it a rest.

Well, hockey59, if you're right, then he'll be a big success in Green Bay...probably win 20-25 games, have a GAA around 2.30 or so...Make sure you let me know when that happens, so that I can admit how much more you know about goaltending than I do.

I think you would have to know a lot about mechanics to judge how good a goalie is. Sometimes stats dont mean as much as people think.

A lot of those stats will depend on who you play against and with as goalieguy pointed out.

I dont pay much attention to awards because thay are based on stats that might not mean anythng.

But goalieguy1, how does a player make a junior team if he is an average high school goalie?

2.30, i dont think so. considering that most of the top USHL goalies are out of high school when he could be a senior. ill bet he puts up average numbers at best.

Crandall could be this year's version of Kent Patterson from last year. Patterson had similar "concerns" placed on him when he chose to leave Blake and head off to Cedar Rapids while still a high school student. He did not do too bad....

http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/pla ... sonid=1336

And now he is one of the goalies invited to the World Juniors Championships tryout as a result. Not sure he would have had the WJC opportunity had he stayed at Blake.

http://www.usahockey.com/uploadedFiles/ ... roster.doc

I can see how people will jump on one side of the fence or the other with Crandall. He will have a great opportunity to improve and develop in JR.

Good Luck!

goalieguy1 wrote:Well, hockey59, if you're right, then he'll be a big success in Green Bay...probably win 20-25 games, have a GAA around 2.30 or so...Make sure you let me know when that happens, so that I can admit how much more you know about goaltending than I do.

I'm wasn't trying to imply that I know more about goaltending than you...it tends to be a very subjective subject...I just know that calling Crandall an average goalie is in-accurate, thats an objective fact, based on what he's accomplished the past 2 years at MN Select 16 & 17's...and at the GB Gamblers try-out camp.

There are a lot of excellent 90 goalies...Hjelle, Crandall, Howe, Lee, Phillippi & Cascheta (sp)...made the Select 17 Final 51...Some others incude Hanna, Wells, Jeager & Hennum...and thats just from the NW Suburban conference.

Observer85 wrote:Crandall could be this year's version of Kent Patterson from last year. Patterson had similar "concerns" placed on him when he chose to leave Blake and head off to Cedar Rapids while still a high school student. He did not do too bad....

http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/pla ... sonid=1336

And now he is one of the goalies invited to the World Juniors Championships tryout as a result. Not sure he would have had the WJC opportunity had he stayed at Blake.

http://www.usahockey.com/uploadedFiles/ ... roster.doc

And now property of the Colorado Avs!

[quote="hockey59"][quote="goalieguy1"]We've had this discussion before, but the consensus of most scouts is that Crandall is an average goalie at best. He's been protected by playing on very good teams. I remember one scout at their section final saying that if STA and Red Wing had changed goalies, STA would have won 12-0, instead of it being 3-2 after two periods.

His numbers are impressive because STA dominates a lot of the poorer teams on their schedule. For example, last year he had these games:

SSP - 1 goal on 11 shots
Sibley - 1 goal on 10 shots
Tartan - a 12-save shutout
Simley - an 11-save shutout
Tartan again - 1 goal on 11 shots

So his stats get padded without breaking a sweat, but then when he faces good teams you get:

Duluth Marshall - 4 on 33 shots
Cretin - 5 on 22 shots
Edina - 4 on 32 shots
Burnsville - 2 on 18 shots
Brainerd - 3 on 18 shots
Hill-Murray - 4 on 28 shots

I realize he had another good games against H-M, along with a couple others, but the bottom line is that he's totally a product of the great STA teams of recent years...if the team hadn't carried him to state (where he got outplayed by the Hermantown goalie) there would be no talk of him being "all-state" - and it's highly unlikely he'll be any factor at all in the USHL. I don't want to sound like I'm ripping on him personally, he's probably a great kid, but he's absolutely an ordinary goalie.[/quote]

[b]ORDINARY GOALIES DON'T GET SELECTED FOR THE NATIONAL 16'S, ESPECIALLY COMING FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA.

ORDINARY GOALIES DON'T GET SELECTED FOR THE NATIONAL 17'S.

GOALIEGUY1 - CONSIDER THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION (UMD RECRUIT) HJELLE & AARON CRANDALL FACED THE PAST 2 YEARS AT THE ADV 16 & 17 MN FINAL 51 TRY-OUTS...LIKE JOE HOWE...WHO NO DOUBT WILL BE A DIVISION 1 GOALIE...AND HAS ALREADY BEEN DRAFTED BY WATERLOO as a sophomore...OR MIKE LEE...THE AA STATE CHAMPION sophomore GOALIE FROM ROSEAU...AND SEVERAL OTHER 90 GOALIES WHO ARE EXCELLENT...so give it a rest.

[/b][/quote]

I agree... "ordinary goalies" dont have the kind of accomplishments that crandall has had. Hes by far from an "ordinary goalie". He will do very well in GB.

Who are the goalies Crandall leaves behind? A couple played a few games last year but only games that were against lesser opponents. Who are they and what do they have to offer?

Crandall's backup is a kid named Altrichter, a freshman last year. Apparently he is as good as, if not better, than Crandall was as a freshman. He made alternate to the National 15s camp. The other is Wynne, also a freshman, and a very good goalie who played JV.

Well, good deal. Crandall was good as a freshman. I'm satisfied. Good luck to Crandall in Green Bay.

HShockeywatcher wrote:Well, good deal. Crandall was good as a freshman. I'm satisfied. Good luck to Crandall in Green Bay.

USHL Protected lists are on the USHL website.

http://www.ushl.com/news/0607/20070702P ... dLists.cfm

Crandall is listed as an affiliate player, not a rostered player on the Green Bay website.

Players selected in the Futures Draft last fall (that are protected) tend to remain on the affiliate list...they are still eligible to play in 2006-2007. For example, Max Cook was the number 1 pick by GB in the futures draft and will be playing for the GB next season, but is on the affiliate list...so is Crandall.

I came across this info on another board regarding the "affiliated" status of USHL players. Does anyone know if it is still accurate?

"Last year, USHL teams could keep up to 12 players in addition to the 23 on the roster on their affiliated list during the regular season. 88's could be on for one year, 89's for 2, and 90's for 3 without having to draft them, add them, or worry about someone else sniping them.

Every time a team wanted to play a player on the affiliates list (due to injury or whatever) that team had to fax a form to the league to the effect of "We are playing this affiliated player in this game." Each affiliated player could play up to and including 6 games with the big club. If the team wanted to play that affiliated player in more games, he would have had to be added to the roster.

Because there is no affiliated minor league (like the AHL to the NHL), this allowed the USHL teams to have prospects and give them a few games without sacrificing their standing with the organization.

I think there are fewer affiliate spots per team this season, but again I don't know. I was working in the league last year, and that's how it worked. The Future's Draft will, for example, allow the Storm to add 5 more affiliated players for a total of 12 (under last year's system). "

If so, what would this mean for Mr. Crandall?

Isn't there still a possibility that some players currently listed on a team's Affiliate list will be moved to the 25-man roster on/before September? I have heard of a couple of players that are definitely planning on playing USHL next year and are currently listed on the team's Affiliate list. I could be wrong as I'm not totally sure how this process works. "Observer85" - could you maybe shed some light on how all of this works?

It's true that some kids move from the affiliated lists to the live rosters. Josh Robinson for Sioux City is an example. (Goalie, came into the league in mid-October when the #2 goalie couldn't do it..)

Let me shed a little light on the USHL, and Junior hockey in general: This is a business, and the teams need to put fans in the seats. In order to do that, they need to win games. Many times a high draft kid won't even make a team when it comes down to the tryouts. Some teams will go through 5 or 6 goalies in a season as they don't have a year to develop one (in reality, I don't care what you read or hear). Every year I hear about a few kids who think they're shoe-ins to play in the USHL because they have been talked to, or even drafted by a team, only to see them back in high school or in the NAHL or even just off the radar.

It's not an easy road, whether to get on a team, or to stay on a team.

Now, with Crandall on the Affiliated list means that he will probably get a chance, but with goalies already on the 25 man roster he will have to wait his turn. The team may have him practice with the team early,, who knows. There is still a lot of things that can happen to the names on the roster itself.

So what happens to someone in his shoes if, for example, he were to just totally suck it up and they didn't want him come October? Could he come back to here, would he have to look for a school in Green Bay? What if a goalie on the affiliate list were to do amazingly in practice, could they replace others on the roster? How does that work?

Question about juniors in general; how long is the season? I know they play lots of games, how many goalies does a team generally play assuming they've found the goalies they want?

Thanks

OK, there are NO absolutes.. but for the most part, if a player is on the affiliated list, they don't stay in town or practice with the team. They play for someone else and may come if called. Normally the affiliated players are the ones that are being planned for the following season.

In the case of the USHL, the league pays for the living expenses of the players, and they don't pay for the affiliated players, just for the 23-man rostered players. (25 up to the end of September.)

So, from the outside looking in, what I see in the GB roster is that Crandall is not currently on the team. He may be moved depending on what the other Goalies do, and there may be plans for that, but for now he's just being protected for next year. That may be totally off, but that's what the coach is trying to make it look like at least.

If he enrolls in school there, then moving back could be a problem. I would say that if he enrolls there, then a plan is in play. If he doesn't, then he's just sitting on the bench waiting to see if/when he will be called up.

The USHL plays 60 regular season games, along with the pre-season and playoffs (hopefully) they can play up to 80 games. The season starts at the end of September with pre-season play, and ends in May sometime.

PM if you have other questions.

According to the protected lists, veteran goalie Nicholas Graves was dropped. With him being dropped, it brings Green Bay to 24 on their protected list and just 1 goalie.

There you go.... and the movement begins..