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So what your saying is time will tell?

Now I wish they would have kept him. He would have most likely had a monster year in the final year of his contract.
Maybe it will work out.
Go Twins.

grindiangrad-80 wrote:Now I wish they would have kept him. He would have most likely had a monster year in the final year of his contract.
Maybe it will work out.
Go Twins.

They should have keep him but its all about $$$$$$

Keep in mind that Punto did hit .299 two years ago.

boblee wrote:Keep in mind that Punto did hit .299 two years ago.

.290 bobber

He hasn't batted above .253 besides that. I don't hold out much hope.

Like was said earlier, it is scary that we might have gotten more for Garza.

EREmpireStrikesBack wrote:

boblee wrote:Keep in mind that Punto did hit .299 two years ago.

.290 bobber

He hasn't batted above .253 besides that. I don't hold out much hope.

Like was said earlier, it is scary that we might have gotten more for Garza.

Remember the Knoblauch trade? Everyone thought it was stupid. Well, how about Eric Milton and Christian Guzman and Buck Buchanon.

How about A.J. Pierzynski trade? A lot of people thought that was worthless. Can you say Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser and Fransisco Liriano?

This trade will be the same way.

I'm hoping you are right.

boblee wrote:Remember the Knoblauch trade? Everyone thought it was stupid. Well, how about Eric Milton and Christian Guzman and Buck Buchanon.

So are you bragging about landing a .500 pitcher, Greg Gagne Jr. and Buck Buchanon? While it may be a moderately better deal for us, I really don't think it's anything to hold your hat on. They obviously gave us more than Knoblauch would have, I just don't think it's something you can look back on and say, Wow!

While I think Terry Ryan was a solid GM, I personally think he is/was overrated. He did alot with so little, and that is to be respected. However, you still can't just forget about the countless other meaningless signings he's made and the umpteen years he could have made a move at the break to put us in better position and didn't get it done. Around the league he was known as the 1 of the best, forgive me if I don't agree..

boblee wrote:

EREmpireStrikesBack wrote:

boblee wrote:Keep in mind that Punto did hit .299 two years ago.

.290 bobber

He hasn't batted above .253 besides that. I don't hold out much hope.

Like was said earlier, it is scary that we might have gotten more for Garza.

Remember the Knoblauch trade? Everyone thought it was stupid. Well, how about Eric Milton and Christian Guzman and Buck Buchanon.

How about A.J. Pierzynski trade? A lot of people thought that was worthless. Can you say Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser and Fransisco Liriano?

This trade will be the same way.

Those trades were made by Terry Ryan we'll see how the new guy measures up in a few years?

boblee wrote:Keep in mind that Punto did hit .299 two years ago.

Remember this was 2 years ago.

I hate the Twins. But I am used to it by now. Ok, I don't hate the Twins but the organization makes me hate them for crapping out on purpose every time we get something good going for ourselves. The best pitcher in the league for 4 turds out of the toilet. Of course a second slap to the Twins fan's faces when we didn't even get the best available prospect in return. They should have traded Santana for me if that was their plan. I could at least go get the bats out of the batter's box during games, and get the team Gatorade.

I absolutely despise this monster Carl Polad more than about anyone. I hear this slimey little miser is filthy rich, owns several businesses including several banks. That his kids post up crazy money to make big films, including Brokeback Mounten, which they are set to bank off of since the death of Heath Ledger. I was told the Polad family spent a lot of money in the depression buying up a series businesses for pennies on the dollar, that since then have more or less thrived. After this post I'll do further research on the topic so it's more than just word of mouth, but regardless I would like to punch this guy in the face as hard as I could if I ever see him on the street for what he does to Twins fans, and don't think I won't.

p.s. I'd like to use much harsher terms, but I'll keep it relatively clean by saying Empire you are no better than that slippery turd Polad. Who cheers for the Yankees? Honestly. That's like going to a casino and cheering for the dealer. The Mets might as well have threw in EREmpire in the deal, then we could have 5 turds out of a toilet. Go to New York.

To confirm my previous statements, a search on wikipedia reveals he is the vice president of Pohlad Companies, which owns the popular radio station Beat96, Marquette Financial Companies, JB Hudson's Jewelers, he "conrols interest" in Pepsi America, which apparently is the 2nd largest bottling group in the U.S., as well as a long list of other companies. Forbes ranks him as the 107th richest person in the United States, a net worth of 2.6 billion dollars. His defense against those who critisize him for not spending enough on the Minnesota Twins, is his willingness to continue to operate the team while losing millions each year. In 2005 he broke even because of revenue sharing.

If I were to further express my personal opinion of Carl Pohlad at this point, I would be banned from the board, if I am not already.

schwang17 wrote:

boblee wrote:Remember the Knoblauch trade? Everyone thought it was stupid. Well, how about Eric Milton and Christian Guzman and Buck Buchanon.

So are you bragging about landing a .500 pitcher, Greg Gagne Jr. and Buck Buchanon? While it may be a moderately better deal for us, I really don't think it's anything to hold your hat on. They obviously gave us more than Knoblauch would have, I just don't think it's something you can look back on and say, Wow!

While I think Terry Ryan was a solid GM, I personally think he is/was overrated. He did alot with so little, and that is to be respected. However, you still can't just forget about the countless other meaningless signings he's made and the umpteen years he could have made a move at the break to put us in better position and didn't get it done. Around the league he was known as the 1 of the best, forgive me if I don't agree..

Keep in mind Ryan was always constrained by Pohlad's payroll. He was able to pull off so many one-sided trades, that teams were beginning to be very hesitant when dealing with the Twins. Fact is the Twins have a business model and that model is not going to change...even for the best pitcher in baseball. I believe that is something Twins fans have to respect. They may not agree with the logic, but the proof is in the pudding. How many other teams had had a run like the Twins for the past 6 years? Give these guys two years and you will be running out to by Gomez and Humber jerseys and talking about how this was another great example of larceny by the Minnesota Twins.

I wish the Twins would find a business model somewhere in between where they are now and the Marlins.

Every year they are conservative. They should have gone out and spent money on Frank Thomas and whoever else could have helped them get over the hump instead of the stiffs Ryan brought in here and waisted millions of dollars on or the "no brainer' Brett Boone deal.

The business model has been penny wise and pound foolish. How prudent financially were the signings of Batista and White, to name just 2.

Id rather see them spend money when they should, ie strike while the iron is hot, and then pull back when they have to trade away or lose the Hunters and Santanas and regroup.

Ryan fumbled an opportunity to get this team into the World Series by following his boofin business model.

We are weeks away from spring training and Gardy doesnt know if he has a centerfielder. Some businees model.

I dont like it.

Wild4hockey wrote:Keep in mind Ryan was always constrained by Pohlad's payroll. He was able to pull off so many one-sided trades, that teams were beginning to be very hesitant when dealing with the Twins. Fact is the Twins have a business model and that model is not going to change...even for the best pitcher in baseball. I believe that is something Twins fans have to respect. They may not agree with the logic, but the proof is in the pudding. How many other teams had had a run like the Twins for the past 6 years? Give these guys two years and you will be running out to by Gomez and Humber jerseys and talking about how this was another great example of larceny by the Minnesota Twins.

Pohlad actually gave him permission the past few years(Soriano, etc.) to pull the trigger on a deal at the deadline - it didn't get done. He's historically known for pullin' some great deals, and I'll give him that, however he's missed quite a few as well. There's alot of other things I could go on and on about with the way he managed our players, I just am too busy to sit here and go through all of them..

Here is an outsiders view of this deal and our situation - I agree alot with what he has to say:

Santana Trade Thoughts
Posted by Peter Schoenke at 1/29/2008 10:35:00 PM
View more posts by this author


The Twins finally pulled the trigger on a Johan Santana trade, sending him to the Mets for outfielder Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey to Minnesota.

It's not a totally done deal because the Mets have a 72 hour window to sign Santana to a contract extension. While Santana wants a six- or seven-year deal at more than $20 million per year, the Mets likely will open the checkbook having come this far.

I argued last October that the Twins should sign Santana to an extension and make a run in 2008. Things have gone the opposite way.

A few thoughts on the trade:

* Don't call this a small market issue. The Twins could have signed him. Money wasn't an issue with the new stadium coming online in 2010. The Twins offered him a four-year, $80 million extension. He was looking for a seven-year, $140 million contract. But the Twins could have pushed hard to give him more dollars in a shorter deal. The could have offered a four-year, $100 million deal, for example. With an expected revenue boost of $25 million to $50 million per year with the new stadium, and payroll growing to $100 million or more, the Twins could have paid him. However, GM Bill Smith was on record saying he didn't like contracts of that length to pitchers.

* Where are the bats? The Minnesota farm system is devoid of hitting talent in the high minors. Getting only one hitter in this deal is a missed opportunity. The Twins will likely have to deal more pitching prospects for hitting down the road.

* It's hard at this point to really grade Bill Smith on this deal, because it's hard to know what hand he was dealt. Could Smith have even signed Santana to an extension? There were reports Santana didn't want to stay with the Twins. Did Santana and his agent force a deadline on the Twins by saying they wouldn't waive their no trade clause unless something happened by a certain date? It's also hard to know if the reported offers from the Yankees and Red Sox (especially Boston) were legit.

* If you are a Twins fan at least Santana went to the NL. In fact, I'd argue that the Twins wanted to trade Santana to a NL team so much that they'd take 75 percent of the same offer from an AL team. Unlike the Chuck Knoblauch trade, the Twins can be competitive to win the AL title in a few years. So there was a real reason not to give him to an AL rival.

* Joe Nathan, who's in the final year of his contract, has be traded at some point before August. The Twins aren't likely to be in the playoff hunt this season and it's not clear spending $10 million or so a year on a closer fits into their plans. He becomes a very risky pick in AL-only leagues as result.

* With Santana and Hunter gone, the Twins suddenly are far below last year's $75 million payroll (about $25 million by my calculations). Twins ownership usually gives the GM a budget (about 55 percent of revenue), but doesn't pressure him to go vastly under. So where do they spend this money? There are few free agents left. And next season they're going to face a similar gap, which could let them sign a free agent/trade for a veteran.

* Fantasy winners and losers in this deal? Santana's stats are only going to improve in the NL. Boof Bonser probably has more of a secure spot in the rotation. Carlos Gomez has a shot to start in center field on day one, but don't count out some time at Triple-A at just age 22.

* The Twins, and many analysts, keep talking about the Twins planning to have a competitive team when their ballpark opens in 2010. In fact, that always seems to be the plan for new ballparks. But shouldn't the plan be to have a competitive team before the park opens or after the honeymoon wears off? The Twins could be an AL dormat and they're still going to get great attendance the first few years. Better to go for it before the park opens and rebuild/re-tool those first few years. Go into the park with some momentum.

* What if the Mets can't strike a deal with Santana? It's still probably more of a possibility than you think. If Santana really wants a seven-year, $140 million deal, he simply has to just wait a year and pitch for the Twins. He'll get that money in the open market if he doesn't get hurt. It's a risk he could take. Then we're back to square one again.

* If you're a Twins fan and are mad about this deal, the real culprit here is former GM Terry Ryan. Last year at this time he had Santana, Torii Hunter, Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau all asking for contract extensions. He knew he had money coming from a new stadium in 2010 to get the deals done. But he only signed Mauer. With the inflation in the game due to rising revenues, all those deals would look cheap today. Hunter may have been had for $15 million a year or less; Santana for $15 million a year for maybe less than six years; Morneau's deal certainly would be less than the one he just signed. Then Ryan compounded the problem by not trading Hunter or Carlos Silva at the All-Star break when the Twins were a long shot for the playoffs. He was a great GM, but left on a really bad streak of decisions.

* The Mets are the favorite in the NL if this goes through.

packerboy wrote:I wish the Twins would find a business model somewhere in between where they are now and the Marlins.

Every year they are conservative. They should have gone out and spent money on Frank Thomas and whoever else could have helped them get over the hump instead of the stiffs Ryan brought in here and waisted millions of dollars on or the "no brainer' Brett Boone deal.

The business model has been penny wise and pound foolish. How prudent financially were the signings of Batista and White, to name just 2.

Id rather see them spend money when they should, ie strike while the iron is hot, and then pull back when they have to trade away or lose the Hunters and Santanas and regroup.

Ryan fumbled an opportunity to get this team into the World Series by following his boofin business model.

We are weeks away from spring training and Gardy doesnt know if he has a centerfielder. Some businees model.

I dont like it.

I'm not a big FAN of the Marlins' "busines model", and I'm glad the Twins have at least shown some effort toward consistency anyway. As fun at it would be to know that every 6 or 7 years you'd have a good team, it's those other years when you're sitting in a 60,000 seat stadium with 2,000 of your closest friends that would absolutely suck.

But for once, you're right PB, and I could never understand how TR could miss so badly on free agents - Frank Thomas being a prime example. The guy signed for next to nothing, and had a huge year in Oakland. Meanwhile, TR roots through the bargain bin to come up with Bret Boone, Phil Nevin, Rondell White, Sidney Ponson, Jose Offerman, Quinton McCracken, Ramon Ortiz and every other goofball whoever fooled baseball execs into thinking they ever belonged in MLB in the first place.

How can a guy who seems to have such an eye for young talent miss so badly with veterans? It baffles me. I know they'll always come with a higher price tag, but honestly - these were the best alternatives at the time?! No - they weren't.

Govs93 wrote: goofball

None were bigger than Tony Batista.

Irishmans Shanty wrote:

Govs93 wrote: goofball

None were bigger than Tony Batista.

Geez - that's #2 on the list after Boonsie! How could I forget? Sorry, IS!

Govs, he knew that those guys weren't any good but he followed the "business model" that Wild4 is so in love with.

He just hoped they would some how play over thier heads and contribute.

If he would have kept that money in his pocket and used it on one guy, it would have made way more sense.

Ryan was deathly afraid of signing a big name and then have him injured or go in the tank. As it realtes to the free agency/ and now resign top players market, the Twins have been afraid of failure.

That's not a good model for success.

I sure hope this trade turns out like the Pierzynski for Liriano, Bonser, and Nathan, but i really dont think that its gonna pay off for the Twins.

We all do LF Fan but this organization has become one trick pony.

All they try to do is repeat the success of the AJ trade, which has been over blown, in my opinion.

They need to try other things too. They are too cautious.

The Garza trade was a good idea.

Lets go Mr Smith. If these guys you got from the Mets are so good, deal one or 2 of them for somebody who can hit the boofin ball.

I haven't been a big fan of their free agent signings either but please enlighten me on how many other teams were as successful as the twins from 2000-06. I for one find myself liking the Twins more and more knowing they stick to their plan and build from the ground up. Any team can sign big name FA and pony up the cash for big ticket players. I simply don't find that as gratifying. I will admit, I am a big fan of their business model and the success it has brough the Twins. If it is not a good model for success then what is paying 150+million a year and shelling out luxury taxes?

Wild4hockey wrote:I haven't been a big fan of their free agent signings either but please enlighten me on how many other teams were as successful as the twins from 2000-06. I for one find myself liking the Twins more and more knowing they stick to their plan and build from the ground up. Any team can sign big name FA and pony up the cash for big ticket players. I simply don't find that as gratifying. I will admit, I am a big fan of their business model and the success it has brough the Twins. If it is not a good model for success then what is paying 150+million a year and shelling out luxury taxes?

Not too many teams have won the World Series building form the ground up lately. In fact, the Twins didnt win it that way in 1991.

I like the idea of developing young players too but we are in an era where free agent signings are key to success.

The Twins dont sign free agents. The Twins havent been to a World Series in 17 years. I think there is a conection.

packerboy wrote:

Wild4hockey wrote:I haven't been a big fan of their free agent signings either but please enlighten me on how many other teams were as successful as the twins from 2000-06. I for one find myself liking the Twins more and more knowing they stick to their plan and build from the ground up. Any team can sign big name FA and pony up the cash for big ticket players. I simply don't find that as gratifying. I will admit, I am a big fan of their business model and the success it has brough the Twins. If it is not a good model for success then what is paying 150+million a year and shelling out luxury taxes?

Not too many teams have won the World Series building form the ground up lately. In fact, the Twins didnt win it that way in 1991.

I like the idea of developing young players too but we are in an era where free agent signings are key to success.

The Twins dont sign free agents. The Twins havent been to a World Series in 17 years. I think there is a conection.

Who was the Rockies' big acquisition?

Govs93 wrote:

packerboy wrote:

Wild4hockey wrote:I haven't been a big fan of their free agent signings either but please enlighten me on how many other teams were as successful as the twins from 2000-06. I for one find myself liking the Twins more and more knowing they stick to their plan and build from the ground up. Any team can sign big name FA and pony up the cash for big ticket players. I simply don't find that as gratifying. I will admit, I am a big fan of their business model and the success it has brough the Twins. If it is not a good model for success then what is paying 150+million a year and shelling out luxury taxes?

Not too many teams have won the World Series building form the ground up lately. In fact, the Twins didnt win it that way in 1991.

I like the idea of developing young players too but we are in an era where free agent signings are key to success.

The Twins dont sign free agents. The Twins havent been to a World Series in 17 years. I think there is a conection.

Who was the Rockies' big acquisition?

SP Ramon Ortiz