HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:13 am**

DMom
What's the point of your post?

1. I overloaded my son so don't do as I did and a thousand other parents have done as well.

2. Not only is my son a 2 sport phenom but an A student as well.

We're happy for ya.

On a previous post you were quick to point out that kids that do not make their association A team are B players, "nothing wrong with that". Two years ago Wayzata went 1, 2 in state for PWB1 and Edina did the same thing this year. I'll bet those teams could beat quite a few A teams. So you can wrap yourself around your A blanket, but the fact is those teams had quite a few good players on their roster.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:42 am**

zboni99 wrote:DMom
What's the point of your post?

1. I overloaded my son so don't do as I did and a thousand other parents have done as well.

Its like the signs along the highway, "Don't Litter!" or
"Don't Start Forest Fires!"

Sure, we all know it. But being reminded and getting support from others makes it easier to do the difficult things.

2. Not only is my son a 2 sport phenom but an A student as well.

Everyone likes to see their kids do well. So she/he told us about him(them).

We're happy for ya.

On a previous post you were quick to point out that kids that do not make their association A team are B players, "nothing wrong with that". Two years ago Wayzata went 1, 2 in state for PWB1 and Edina did the same thing this year. I'll bet those teams could beat quite a few A teams. So you can wrap yourself around your A blanket, but the fact is those teams had quite a few good players on their roster.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:22 pm**

well, it is a don't do as we did story. I only put in the A student part because surely someone was going to jump on me for letting him concentrate on sports instead of school. He's not a phenom, but he is normally a happy go lucky, easy to get along with kid. he isn't right now. What he is is a competitive kid, but he will never be anyone's first pick. All of my kids have to work extremely hard just to keep up to kids that are just plain better athletes.

Most of the people on this "bored" who warn about burnout and kids that get a lot of ice being outdistanced by the better athlete at 15, are speaking from experience. I wish I had listened a little sooner.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:53 pm**

I'm happy for any kid who works hard to achieve a set goal, but it's also like looking at someone else's vacation pictures.

On the B1 comment, why not let B1 teams play A teams or enter A tournaments during the year if the parties involved are in agreement?

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:40 pm**

zboni99 wrote:I'm happy for any kid who works hard to achieve a set goal, but it's also like looking at someone else's vacation pictures.

On the B1 comment, why not let B1 teams play A teams or enter A tournaments during the year if the parties involved are in agreement?

Or have an in between category. A2 or something.
'We are not the first team but we are pretty good.'
They can play B teams, but people would know in advance so they could schedule them or not.

Then you can have a northern (rural) 'A' team play the A2 team and have a better competitive game.

Maybe call them AB teams.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:54 pm**

elliott70 wrote:
zboni99 wrote:I'm happy for any kid who works hard to achieve a set goal, but it's also like looking at someone else's vacation pictures.

On the B1 comment, why not let B1 teams play A teams or enter A tournaments during the year if the parties involved are in agreement?
Or have an in between category. A2 or something.
'We are not the first team but we are pretty good.'
They can play B teams, but people would know in advance so they could schedule them or not.

Then you can have a northern (rural) 'A' team play the A2 team and have a better competitive game.

Maybe call them AB teams.

How about Triple B

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:57 pm**

Maybe call them AB teams.

[/quote]

How about Triple B

[/quote]

You need the "A" in there, though, to get other A teams to play.

How about A "Choice"

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:00 pm**

AimHigh wrote:Maybe call them AB teams.

How about Triple B

You need the "A" in there, though, to get other A teams to play.

How about A "Choice"

How about Almost

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:10 pm**

When I was a kid, a classmate always had his own football gear and went to a camp in the summer, this is at age 10, 11, 12 along time ago.
I asked my Dad if I could do the same. He sent me downtown to see Tony Rizzo. Tony owned a shoe repair shop among other things and was a big local sports supporter. Tony helped kids find odd jobs around town.

I made a few bucks, but then decided to use it for Christmas presents for my parents.

Moral: We all have to learn to work for what we want. And what we wnat may change after we have learned how to work.

For those that cannot afford MM, there are plenty of other ways to get what you want.

Wax on, wax off, Grasshopper.

[/quote]

Elliott: Just wondering what your dad's response would be to this scenario (and whether it would put Tony out of business) and DMom, hope this doesn't give your young one any ideas:

Two genders, two states, and one trip to nationals for Colorado Select 12 & Under’s Ahbe
April 1, 2008

By Steve Heath
Special to USAHockey.com

Six games, two states and a weekend she’ll remember and cherish forever.

Brooke Ahbe, truly didn’t know if she was coming or going. Actually, she was doing both. Ahbe played for two teams, two genders in two states and all for the love of hockey.

A member of a boys’ state tournament-bound team in her home state of Colorado, she also was playing for the 12 & Under Colorado Select team in the Rocky Mountain District Tournament in Scottsdale, Ariz., for a trip to the national tournament — all in one weekend.

“She had always played with the boys, but we’d thought it be neat, with her sister Channing playing in the (U19) national tournament, if she could make the national tournament, too,” said Brooke’s father, Greg Ahbe.

Brooke was committed to the boys’ team first, and the family knew the boys’ local playoffs were always a week before the district tournament, but this year the schedule changed. Both fell on the same week.

“Oh, no!” remembered Greg when first told of the schedule change.

It was going to work out, though. Brooke would play for her boys’ team on Thursday, her girls’ team on Friday and Saturday morning, then play for the boys back home Saturday night.

The only flaw in the plan would be if her U12 girls would lose either game to Arizona and have to play a third game Sunday.

Then came the second “Oh, no!”

Colorado lost to Arizona Friday before forcing Game 3 on Saturday.

Then, on the drive home from Saturday’s boys’ game, Brooke was adamant about playing twice on Sunday.

She would take a 6 a.m. flight to Scottsdale, play at 9 a.m., and then take an 11:45 a.m. trip back to Denver for a 5 p.m. state championship game for the boys.

“I forced them to make us go, because that game would get us to nationals,” Brooke said. “I was pretty much jumping on planes after every game.”

“She’s very focused,” said Caroline Ahbe of her daughter. “When she wants something bad, no one is going to talk her out of it.”

The only problem would be if the girls’ game went into overtime.
“Oh, no!”

Brooke scored the goal to put Colorado up 2-1, but Arizona opened the third period with a goal to tie it. Brooke had a breakaway late in the third period, but was unable to finish.

Fortunately, Caley Mueller scored just 1:22 into the extra session to give the team a berth in the nationals. Brooke shook hands with the Arizona team, and then left for the airport.

The only thing that kept it from being a perfect week was her boys’ team losing in the state championship.

“I felt fine and I slept a lot on the planes,” said Brooke, who also lost an hour on Sunday due to the time change. “It was fun flying back and forth and not missing a game and getting to go to the nationals.”

The crazy travel for the Ahbes isn’t over. Caroline will join Brooke and Channing April 2-6 in West Chester, Pa., for the girls’ national tourney.

Brooke and Channing’s brother, Trevor, is playing for Colorado’s 16 & Under Tier I team in the boys’ nationals in Buffalo, N.Y. Greg will accompany Trevor.

Story courtesy of Red Line Editorial, Inc.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:39 pm**

No call it we got beat by a B team.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:12 pm**

Elloit,
Thaks for clairifying the Fire organization for me. I thought they were an umbrella for MN kids to play Tier I hockey. What I can't figure out is why these WI kids had so many practices at MM on school nights during the season? Back and forth to Hudson must be 45 minutes each way without traffic, that's just to the border. Then a 1.5 - 2 hr practice.
I wonder if Bernie is going to coach a Fire team next season?

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:38 pm**

The Fire is registered in Wisconsin with W.A.H.A., however if one could get a look at the rosters and addresses I would be willing to guess that the number of actual Wisconsin address is low.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:36 pm**

greybeard58 wrote:The Fire is registered in Wisconsin with W.A.H.A., however if one could get a look at the rosters and addresses I would be willing to guess that the number of actual Wisconsin address is low.

It was done already. 3-4 players from wisconsin and the rest from MN.

So what if they have to come from Hudson, I think I heard Waconia & St.peter kids that play for the Fire have to travel to WI.

I guess Bernie should just start his own association and he can have as many players as he wants. The associations that don't like it, don't have to play them. He will find games. Build it and they will come.

AS far as B1 or B2 playing A-teams. If you sign up as B1 play any B-team you want 1 or 2. Just don't think because some A-teams have losing records that you should be allowed to play them. They at least had the balls to play a A schedule.

Edina should try it one year field 3 A-Teams. They won't do it because they have to many Board members that want to say they have a kid skating with the top 13 skaters Edina has to offer. Rule states if a team fields more then 1 A-team they must be Balanced equally. WHICH PROVES THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT THEIR OWN KID BY NOT HAVING MORE THEN 1 TEAM.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:24 pm**

CoachJ wrote:
greybeard58 wrote:The Fire is registered in Wisconsin with W.A.H.A., however if one could get a look at the rosters and addresses I would be willing to guess that the number of actual Wisconsin address is low.

It was done already. 3-4 players from wisconsin and the rest from MN.

So what if they have to come from Hudson, I think I heard Waconia & St.peter kids that play for the Fire have to travel to WI.

I guess Bernie should just start his own association and he can have as many players as he wants. The associations that don't like it, don't have to play them. He will find games. Build it and they will come.

Not possible.

AS far as B1 or B2 playing A-teams. If you sign up as B1 play any B-team you want 1 or 2. Just don't think because some A-teams have losing records that you should be allowed to play them. They at least had the balls to play a A schedule.

Edina should try it one year field 3 A-Teams. They won't do it because they have to many Board members that want to say they have a kid skating with the top 13 skaters Edina has to offer. Rule states if a team fields more then 1 A-team they must be Balanced equally. WHICH PROVES THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT THEIR OWN KID BY NOT HAVING MORE THEN 1 TEAM.

This is a D6 rule. It could be challenged.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:37 pm**

I guess Bernie should just start his own association and he can have as many players as he wants. The associations that don't like it, don't have to play them. He will find games. Build it and they will come.

Not possible.

He can start his own league in his own building, He just can't call it an Association?

Why isn't it possible?

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:59 pm**

CoachJ wrote:I guess Bernie should just start his own association and he can have as many players as he wants. The associations that don't like it, don't have to play them. He will find games. Build it and they will come.

Not possible.

He can start his own league in his own building, He just can't call it an Association?

Why isn't it possible?

It (MM) does not come under the description under MN Hockey rules.
MM's players are not from the same community for starters. MM is a
for-profit organization for #2. #3 An associatin is responsible for finding a place for all players within its boundaries.
Need I continue.

I do not think B.M. desires to be a MH association.
Would MM want to find ice time for mites, squirts, pee-wees, etc... that came forward to play. It would deeply cut into the repititi0n, repetition, etc... philosophy (which is not a MM invention).

MH handbook is on-line at the web page.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:13 pm**

elliott70 wrote:
CoachJ wrote:I guess Bernie should just start his own association and he can have as many players as he wants. The associations that don't like it, don't have to play them. He will find games. Build it and they will come.

Not possible.

He can start his own league in his own building, He just can't call it an Association?

Why isn't it possible?
It (MM) does not come under the description under MN Hockey rules.
MM's players are not from the same community for starters. MM is a
for-profit organization for #2. #3 An associatin is responsible for finding a place for all players within its boundaries.
Need I continue.

I do not think B.M. desires to be a MH association.
Would MM want to find ice time for mites, squirts, pee-wees, etc... that came forward to play. It would deeply cut into the repititi0n, repetition, etc... philosophy (which is not a MM invention).

MH handbook is on-line at the web page.

Thank you

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:12 am**

10.6 Associations which have 2 or more teams at any given level shall attempt to evenly balance the player skill levels between those teams. Upon application by an Association, the District 6 Director may, in his sole discretion, grant an exception to this policy where it is believed that all involved teams, even if not evenly balanced, will nonetheless be competitive within District 6.

CoachJ
That is the D6 rule. What I think Edina would want is to form a competitive second team. If a second team goes .500, I consider that competitive. Why should they have to balance the first team? They should be allowed to put their best team on the ice and if the number and talent allow a competitive second then they should be allowed to play at he desired level of play, let's say the A level. Why should Edina or Wayzata or any other association in this situation have to water down, for lack of a better description, team one. One problem is the part that states
the D6 directors sole discretion. That's a lot of say for one person.

Okay big balls Coachj, you big tough guy you. In my statement about the B1 play an A team I wasn't talking about teams signing up to play B1. I was tallking about competitive B1 teams that were formed because the talent pool at those associations is deep. I'm sure there are plenty of kids from Wayzata PWB1 2 seasons ago or Edina PWB1 this season that had the balls (and the skills too) to play A, tough guy. Here's an example:
There's an open spot in an association PWA tournament in District 5, a good PWB1 teams inquires about filling the spot. The tournament director thinks about it and says okay. Then the MN hockey rule about interlevel play is discovered. IMO, I think the B1 team would have been competitive 1-2 games in the bracket tourney. Even if they play the friendship game , so what, they got some good competition and filled out the tourney bracket for the hosting assocoation, and bought hotel rooms and food and booze at the host site.
I understand why the rule is there because there are plenty out there who would decide to play down maybe for going to state and then fill in at A level when possible, just look at girls U12B. But a waiver option would be nice when there is a legitimate case for exception.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:23 am**

zboni99 wrote:10.6 Associations which have 2 or more teams at any given level shall attempt to evenly balance the player skill levels between those teams. Upon application by an Association, the District 6 Director may, in his sole discretion, grant an exception to this policy where it is believed that all involved teams, even if not evenly balanced, will nonetheless be competitive within District 6.

CoachJ
That is the D6 rule. What I think Edina would want is to form a competitive second team. If a second team goes .500, I consider that competitive. Why should they have to balance the first team? They should be allowed to put their best team on the ice and if the number and talent allow a competitive second then they should be allowed to play at he desired level of play, let's say the A level. Why should Edina or Wayzata or any other association in this situation have to water down, for lack of a better description, team one. One problem is the part that states
the D6 directors sole discretion. That's a lot of say for one person.

Okay big balls Coachj, you big tough guy you. In my statement about the B1 play an A team I wasn't talking about teams signing up to play B1. I was tallking about competitive B1 teams that were formed because the talent pool at those associations is deep. I'm sure there are plenty of kids from Wayzata PWB1 2 seasons ago or Edina PWB1 this season that had the balls (and the skills too) to play A, tough guy. Here's an example:
There's an open spot in an association PWA tournament in District 5, a good PWB1 teams inquires about filling the spot. The tournament director thinks about it and says okay. Then the MN hockey rule about interlevel play is discovered. IMO, I think the B1 team would have been competitive 1-2 games in the bracket tourney. Even if they play the friendship game , so what, they got some good competition and filled out the tourney bracket for the hosting assocoation, and bought hotel rooms and food and booze at the host site.
I understand why the rule is there because there are plenty out there who would decide to play down maybe for going to state and then fill in at A level when possible, just look at girls U12B. But a waiver option would be nice when there is a legitimate case for exception.

Good point.
In D16 (within D16) we (I) allow B teams to play against A teams (or vice versa).
Hallock played peewee A this year with their one team. I allowed them to play B teams at TRF, Roseau, EGF, Crookston, so they would ahve soem competitive games instead of all the 6 - 0 or worse games they got with most A teams.
The kids are relatively the same size and age. If the skill levels are similar, let 'em play.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:12 pm**

zboni99 wrote:10.6 Associations which have 2 or more teams at any given level shall attempt to evenly balance the player skill levels between those teams. Upon application by an Association, the District 6 Director may, in his sole discretion, grant an exception to this policy where it is believed that all involved teams, even if not evenly balanced, will nonetheless be competitive within District 6.

CoachJ
That is the D6 rule. What I think Edina would want is to form a competitive second team. If a second team goes .500, I consider that competitive. Why should they have to balance the first team? They should be allowed to put their best team on the ice and if the number and talent allow a competitive second then they should be allowed to play at he desired level of play, let's say the A level. Why should Edina or Wayzata or any other association in this situation have to water down, for lack of a better description, team one. One problem is the part that states
the D6 directors sole discretion. That's a lot of say for one person.

Okay big balls Coachj, you big tough guy you. In my statement about the B1 play an A team I wasn't talking about teams signing up to play B1. I was tallking about competitive B1 teams that were formed because the talent pool at those associations is deep. I'm sure there are plenty of kids from Wayzata PWB1 2 seasons ago or Edina PWB1 this season that had the balls (and the skills too) to play A, tough guy. Here's an example:
There's an open spot in an association PWA tournament in District 5, a good PWB1 teams inquires about filling the spot. The tournament director thinks about it and says okay. Then the MN hockey rule about interlevel play is discovered. IMO, I think the B1 team would have been competitive 1-2 games in the bracket tourney. Even if they play the friendship game , so what, they got some good competition and filled out the tourney bracket for the hosting assocoation, and bought hotel rooms and food and booze at the host site.
I understand why the rule is there because there are plenty out there who would decide to play down maybe for going to state and then fill in at A level when possible, just look at girls U12B. But a waiver option would be nice when there is a legitimate case for exception.

SORRY IF YOU FELT THE BALLS REMARK WAS ABOUT YOU.

I was sticking up for the little association. Edina has a B1 team and they play a Shakopee A-Team and beat them 6-1. Is that going to be good for Shakopee. If Edina is going to feel that team is a B1 team then that is the schedule they should play. They should not be able to jump around in class. Thats the balls I was talking about. Play Wayzata's A-team then if thats how good your B1 team is and lose 10-0. Then after the game is over say things like well we did pretty good for being a B1 Team.

If you live in a rural area then I can understand. Hallock can't come play Farmingtons A-team and Roseau beats them 14-1 so they need to find a Happy medium.

As far as Why Can't Edina have the top 15 skaters on one team. I never said that, I just said the board members of edina don't want their kids on the A2 team or A3 team. Thats why they have just 1 team.

on whats the harm of a B1 team playing in a Tournament against A-Team. No risk for the B1 team and what do A-Team have to gain by playing a weaker team if they don't win by 8 goals or the goalie gives up 4 goals how does he feel the rest of the year. Sounds like a great Idea.

Did you see what happened the last couple years in the gophers football season. They almost lost to NORTH DAKOTA 2 YEARS AGO AND THEN LAST YEAR THEY DID LOSE TO NORTH DAKOTA. That's great for North Dakota But, I bet the Gophers didn't enjoy the last 2 games against them. They won 1 game and everyone was all upset because they only won 10-9 and the next year they lost bad to a team they should have killed. Just My Opinion, why did the gophers have to gain by playing North Dakota. (besides money)

What would Shakopees A -Team gain by playing Edina's B1 team. As Far as Edina B1 KIDS HAVING THE BALLS TO PLAY A-LEVEL. I'am sure they do but, the board members feel they would be better served playing a B-Schedule. Take it up with them Tough Guy.

Posted: **Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:04 am**

Why doesn't MM just go ahead and start the Choice Pee Wee and Choice Bantam league now and get it over with?

Posted: **Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:38 pm**

Why doesn't MM just go ahead and start the Choice Pee Wee and Choice Bantam league now and get it over with?

It almost looks like their business plan calls for them to take this initial group of mites and provide a choice for them outside of the associations for each year of development. I would not doubt that in 5 years, there will be choice leagues at every level, with possible multiple arena locations. If the elementary and middle school comes to fruition, how far behind will the high school be? It looks like the beginning stages of a Russian hockey school concept or a Boleterri tennis academy concept.

It is smart to start with the youngest players and control their development on the way up. That way, you can control the quality of the program easier. Maintain the high quality, and the program will grow naturally. MM is expanding the base so later developers won't be left behind (who knows how many grinders will become part of the machine when they reach puberty).

MM can then either compete nationally with a Tier I program like Shattuck, or go Minnesota private like a Holy Angels (assuming they create a high school).

If the players coming out of the program continue to be top rate, it will be hard for many associations compete if they keep a business as usual attitude. If MM is slowly growing a hockey factory like I think they are, then association hockey may be in trouble. Who knows, in 10 years, MM may have the same standing as the Victory Hondas and Honeybakes of the hockey world. They can escape the wrath of Minnesota and USA hockey if they keep everything in-house, but eventually, there will be a desire to compete at the national level. Can anyone see lawsuits in the future?

Posted: **Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:04 pm**

No coachj I didn't assume it to be personal. As you probably figured, my kids skate for the EHA. I really don't think it's a matter of balls to have more than 1 A team. I think there is always more to the story than meets the eye. See my post about balancing the teams. All that D6 should be concerned about for any member association is that they will put a COMPETITIVE team on the ice. How Edina or any other association does that is association business. If you put a second team out there that is a stinker then your chance of a waiver in the future will be in doubt. I'm sure there are a lot of politics involved with putting a second team on the ice at say the A level. Like who is on the team, who is going to coach the team. Maybe that is a can of worms that the board just doesn't want to deal with? They are not perfect, but they do a decent job.
I think my example of the B1 playing A tournament was legit. You are right, your Shakopee example is true. It was just an isolated opportunity that was beneficial to both parties. I don't think a MN hockey rule should have killed the opportunity.
As far as I know we weren't hounding A teams looking for a game. You are also right that the Wayzata A team would have killed us. We lost in regions to their B1 team. Lost is all the babel was the point i was trying to make that just because a kid might be on a B team in one assocaition doesn't make him/her a lesser player then some kid on an A team in another association. I guess we just disagree. I think this thread is getting a little off point so if you respond you can have the last word.

Posted: **Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:10 pm**

Edina and other heavy Member associations should be doing 2+ A level teams, especially in Squirts. If St. Cloud Skates 2 “A” Squirt teams; EP, Edina, WBL, and the Wayzata’s should be able to also.
I think MN Hockey (or Districts) should make a rule\Formula that pertains to how many registered players = what levels you are playing at for the given year.
Example:
39 Skaters for Squirts = 3 teams (A-B-C)
120+ Skaters = 8 teams (2-A’s, 4-B’s (B1 and\or B2), & 2-C’s)

This way it isn’t up to the Association’s board to favor their kids for what team they will play on, it will be based on number of players registered. Also, it would eliminate opponent’s coaching staff from whining that you are just playing at that level just to throttle teams.

As far as the MM Choice Program; assign the program to rinks in the North-South-East-West. Run the program the same at ALL locations. Have 4 tournaments; one at each location. Make it like the Elite Classic, Super Series, and select tournaments with the Choice players.

Posted: **Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:48 pm**

Edina and other heavy Member associations should be doing 2+ A level teams, especially in Squirts. If St. Cloud Skates 2 “A” Squirt teams; EP, Edina, WBL, and the Wayzata’s should be able to also.

This would play into the hands of MM. The Squirt Choice "Elite" division brochure will now decry the dilution of the "A" teams. MM would then go after the top "A" players and create a super league.

I feel these organizations should have two "A"teams, however, with a viable option out there, they could be shooting themselves in the foot by loosing a lot of top players.

The associations have to get better at doing what is best for the kids or risk the possibility of becoming obsolete in a couple of years. This is going to be interesting to watch in the coming years if MM has the desire to become the hockey development of choice in the Twin Cities.

HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Choice Squirt League

Re: s

why doesn't