Top AAA teams 98 / 99's

[Can't Never Tried]

If you have to shorten the bench at the 10 yr old level just shorten your roster altogether and increase the price to your chosen few....crissakes it's summer hockey!!
Remember this; that unneeded kid could be either playing on another team and getting time, or at the lake tubing...either way at least he'd be having fun.

It's just insane at this age..this is ego all the way.

I really can't understand why adult coaches wouldn't know they're doing more harm then good! all to say "I Won" it can't be about the kids if you won't let them play, and if they're on these teams they must be pretty good in the 1st place, so play em!

[nhl'er]

If the parents of the kids that are getting shorted are ok with this and wrote their checks just to brag that their "Jonny" is on a specific high profile team is pretty sad. I bet if you asked everyone of the kids that got benched they would have wanted to play the whole game. If the coach doesn't have confidence with all 15 players he selected for a team at this level, then he should have only selected 12 or wherever his beching level is at. Go speak with some of the current parents on 97 Machine and Deuce and get their direct view. I know many of them and there are many unhappy campers this year with how these teams are being run.

[hiptzech]

As pointed out on another thread from the Easton Cup, it's unfortunate for the Machine kids/parents that they decided they needed to short their bench for these games just too say they beat the Blades. To be shorting a bench with 8-9 year olds just to win is crazy at this age. I'm all for putting a kid on the bench as disciplinary for a shift or two as warranted for lack of effort, but to bench kids just to go for the win Great thing to teach our young kids. The Machine should be proud of these wins! Win games even up and let the best team win on any given night and let all of the kids that have earned a spot on their respective team be part of the win or loss, win as a team, lose as a team!

Please tell me you are not surprised this happened. There was plenty of hype building up to this one, just watching this board and you can see the excitement building. Not just the excitement being built up by the poasters of this board the tension between these 2 organizations from their history.

I have been on the ice officiating both of these teams (Blades, once during the Meltdown…Machine, 4 times). I have remained quiet on this one and have been waiting to see the re-match; unfortunately I was not able to attend. It has always been my opinion that the Machine was a better team, but that was based on the games that I was personally involved in. Although the Blades team was a complete miss-match against an Iowa/Missouri team, I was more impressed with the team play of The Machine. I agree I did not have a good game to assess the Blades but my initial impressions of the team came at the beginning of the game with a low score. Enough said.

I agree with some of what you have to say with regard to a short bench but I personally feel that in this league and this season I believe it is completely acceptable. In season association play, I don’t agree with a short bench but in this environment the game changes. Everyone is aware of the risk of a short bench for the sake of a game win. AAA is tough and is not for the weak of heart. It kind of like life, isn’t it? After all, we have our kids involved in sports not just for the sport itself but also to learn life lessons. When the stakes are high you put your “A” players in the game in any facet of life. Tough stuff. If you can’t accept it, don’t put yourself or your kid into the situation.

On July 9th

……The competition between the Blades and Machine seems to flip flop every other year with who has bragging rights. 96=Machine, 97=Blades, 98=Machine, 99=Blades. The rights belong to the Blades, so if you want to have Johnny play in the Brick, then have him play for the Blades.

Get over it parents, it just one tournament.

Are you maybe eating a little crow? Did you pick the Blades to win? Did you look past The Machine? Maybe you need to get over it, it was just a tournament.

On Aug 11th

I don't argue that Bernie is in business to make money…..

Lastly, it is simple to see a “Win at all Costs” approach to this game by The Machine. 0-1 record and an opportunity to redeem yourself. This wasn’t just a game between the top 2 teams in the state, it was a game between a “For Profit”/”Non-Profit” organizations. If you are charging your players more to play and your sales and marketing are depending on success for future opportunities you have got to win. What is there to miss on this one? Better records, best team will get you more clients.

[Can't Never Tried]

What is there to miss? the fact there 9-10 year olds geezzz!

Seriously having to win is so important that you are putting the business future on the backs of a few 9-10 yr olds.

That's just a sad statement...
There are many many things wrong with this picture.

[O-townClown]

Can't, ever heard the expression "everyone that drives slower than you is an idiot and everyone driving faster is a maniac"? I think the same thing is at work here.

Everyone is competitive, the question is to what degree. If it were solely a recreational activity there wouldn't be teams in the first place. Anyone playing summer hockey isn't satisfied with just in-season association competition.

I play in a 35+ league and we're having some of these same issues. I don't know how you can straddle the fine line.

[nhl'er]

Nice try Hipzech, kids are not on the Blades. I just have different values for the kids at this age and agree with the Blades approach vs the Machine for development at these age groups. As stated, I personally know many Machine/Deuce parents that have been involved with the MM AAA program and many are now questioning themselves if they made the right decision for their son after being in the program. Their kids aren't nearly as excited as they once were playing for these teams. Parents ego's are huge issue for the initial draw to MM. I could care less who has the bragging rights after a game, it bugs me though when MM parents start bragging about how great the Machine is when they win with 10 at the expense of 5 kids or whatever the numbers are. Yea, it's summer AAA hockey, but it is still about development of all the kids on the team. If you don't allow Jonny to play in a pressure situation, how do you expect him to grow as a player. Enough said on this subject..

[hiptzech]

What is there to miss? the fact there 9-10 year olds geezzz!

Seriously having to win is so important that you are putting the business future on the backs of a few 9-10 yr olds.

That's just a sad statement...
There are many many things wrong with this picture.

I haven’t been put in a position to explain the whys and why nots to my kid as it pertains to a short bench. WHEN, I am in the position I will not be looking forward to it. WHEN, I am in the position (unless it is completely incomprehensible) I will understand it, accept it and deal with it. I don’t and won’t shy away from opportunities to teach life lessons for my kids. Riding the pine because you are not the player they need on the ice to win the game, WHEN the game needs to be won is part of life. But as I have said before, I also don’t believe in giving out trophies for participation. Life isn’t always fare, reality sucks sometimes. There is an alternative, shy away from these organizations and put your kid into an organization that has less skilled players and put him in a position that makes him the best player on the team. Then you can discuss, why the coach kept putting lesser skilled players on the ice and ultimately jeopardizing the game as a result. I don’t believe it is always about the win, but there are times when a win is needed. This was a game that was needed to win for so many reasons.

Like I said, I have been on the ice with The Machine 4 times. I have not seen them shorten the bench that is my experience and my observation. This was a game, and I don’t see it as a regular practice.

MM’s current business success is from a group of 9-10 years olds that were drafted by the NHL, 1 of them #1. It is at the core of the hype created around the organization, it has worked so far for him.

[Studly02011]

As someone who is involed with the Machine organization I can tell you that when you join the Machine one of the first things that Bernie tells you is that your son is owed 100% of the coaches effort in Practice, but that you are owed nothing when it comes to game time. It has to be earned. So you are told up front that your kid may not always play.

As far as the 97 team goes the players that are unhappy are the practice/fourth liners that where told that they may never play. When they didn't play they got upset. The core of that team that has been together for the last three years are fine. Bernie told everyone up front what to expect.

The Machine program is what it is, If you don't like it go play for some else. if you ask me it has been great for my family and it is hard to argue with the success. They started just four years ago and they have some of the best teams anywhere. They are always hard to beat, but they seem to be very easy for some people to criticize.

[Can't Never Tried]

What is there to miss? the fact there 9-10 year olds geezzz!

Seriously having to win is so important that you are putting the business future on the backs of a few 9-10 yr olds.

That's just a sad statement...
There are many many things wrong with this picture.

I haven’t been put in a position to explain the whys and why nots to my kid as it pertains to a short bench. WHEN, I am in the position I will not be looking forward to it. WHEN, I am in the position (unless it is completely incomprehensible) I will understand it, accept it and deal with it. I don’t and won’t shy away from opportunities to teach life lessons for my kids. Riding the pine because you are not the player they need on the ice to win the game, WHEN the game needs to be won is part of life. But as I have said before, I also don’t believe in giving out trophies for participation. Life isn’t always fare, reality sucks sometimes. There is an alternative, shy away from these organizations and put your kid into an organization that has less skilled players and put him in a position that makes him the best player on the team. Then you can discuss, why the coach kept putting lesser skilled players on the ice and ultimately jeopardizing the game as a result. I don’t believe it is always about the win, but there are times when a win is needed. This was a game that was needed to win for so many reasons.

Like I said, I have been on the ice with The Machine 4 times. I have not seen them shorten the bench that is my experience and my observation. This was a game, and I don’t see it as a regular practice.

MM’s current business success is from a group of 9-10 years olds that were drafted by the NHL, 1 of them #1. It is at the core of the hype created around the organization, it has worked so far for him.

If you say so !
Do you have any children in sports older then 9-10?
If not, you may also learn a life lesson in this one.

As to the bolded statement above, I'm stunned!
Nuff said!

[puckfan]

Every team has an approach that they take which they think is correct.

Machine, strict rules (no missing practice, skills vs team, ties vs whatever, sit during game or stand an watch). Blades and others do things differently too.

As far as sitting kids/playing all in the summer, these parents know what they are signing up for. If they feel their player can deal with the short bench, then it's for them to decide. It's all about "my kid is on the (fill in the Blanks)"

I watched the Easton Cup on Friday and one of the Top teams was not having their usual way with a throw together squad. The one thing I noticed how differently the players were handled on the bench, not sure why you would subject a 10 year old to the one method but I guess it must be for the long after game closed door sessions where they get to review their performances or was it because they failed to beat the team by enough?

[hiptzech]

Nice try Hipzech, kids are not on the Blades. I just have different values for the kids at this age and agree with the Blades approach vs the Machine for development at these age groups. As stated, I personally know many Machine/Deuce parents that have been involved with the MM AAA program and many are now questioning themselves if they made the right decision for their son after being in the program. Their kids aren't nearly as excited as they once were playing for these teams. Parents ego's are huge issue for the initial draw to MM. I could care less who has the bragging rights after a game, it bugs me though when MM parents start bragging about how great the Machine is when they win with 10 at the expense of 5 kids or whatever the numbers are. Yea, it's summer AAA hockey, but it is still about development of all the kids on the team. If you don't allow Jonny to play in a pressure situation, how do you expect him to grow as a player. Enough said on this subject..

That’s Hiptzech, thank you very much. I made sure to avoid being that guy to accuse you of being a parent, re-read what I said. Don’t be too sure about the pressure put on the Blades coaches to win, especially at the Brick. As far as MM is concerned, I had my kid over there for some summer of ice and I was not overly impressed with the clinic he was in. You see I don’t have any underlying motivations in this debate, other than trying to be realistic with the hockey climate. The reality is my kid isn’t good enough to make these teams, and I am perfectly fine with it. My kid is in the middle of the pack and is right where I want him to be. Not too good, not too bad. At this point, I wouldn’t want my kid on either team because the talent level would put him in the position to ride the pine. He did attend the Blades try-outs, he knew he wasn’t going to make the team but I wanted to gauge his talent level with the best. He was able to see exactly where he stood with some of the best in the area, it’s now up to him to either rise to the challenge or continue to be in the middle of the pack. Either way, it doesn’t matter to me as long as he has a smile on his face coming off the ice.
Furthermore, the kids on these AAA teams experience pressure all of the time, it doesn’t take a game or a tournament to apply pressure. A tournament is going to give these kids 8-10 hours of ice time in a “pressure” situation, which is a little more than what they see on a weekly basis at practice. Of the 8-10 hours that they do see in the tournaments, how many hours are truly spent under pressure as they are dominating every other team with the exception of a game or 2. They get plenty of pressure situations at practice against each other, so the development under pressure situation argument doesn’t go very far for me.

[sorno82]

This is one of those discussions that will not resolve itself anytime soon, so why bother. Maybe 10 years from now we can look at the whole population of kids playing youth hockey and see where they end up. Will the MM way of doing things dominate all others, or will the more balanced approach win. There will probably be enough cross pollennation that it will be tough to sort out. As long as the kids stay actively involved in something they enjoy, we should be happy.

Most young kids try to please their parents so they will go along with whatever they want until they feel so strongly one way or the other that they finally speak up.

I don't buy the argument that everyone who is told that the bench will be shortened should just accept it when it happens. Most people will accept the terms in the beginning rather than turn away. They probably think their kid will be one of the top ten. If they are good enough to make the team and write a check, then they should play evenly.
I would be more impressed with the program if everyone played and lost a close game than win with a short bench. Life teaches alot about winning and losing as a team. To each his own.

Just enjoy they ride, they grow up too quick.

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

As pointed out on another thread from the Easton Cup, it's unfortunate for the Machine kids/parents that they decided they needed to short their bench for these games just too say they beat the Blades. To be shorting a bench with 8-9 year olds just to win is crazy at this age . I'm all for putting a kid on the bench as disciplinary for a shift or two as warranted for lack of effort, but to bench kids just to go for the win Great thing to teach our young kids. The Machine should be proud of these wins! Win games even up and let the best team win on any given night and let all of the kids that have earned a spot on their respective team be part of the win or loss, win as a team, lose as a team!

I'm not sure if this really happened or not? If it did I have to agree with the majority on this one. What message does shortening the bench send to all the players and parents? For any parent to admit they're fine with dishing out tons of money and being ok with their son sitting on the bench is flat out lying. I don't care what anyone told the parents at the beginning of the year. Are you kidding me? We're at the end of the AAA season and your son sat on the bench? Where's the development?

[sorno82]

Nature vs. Nurture has been debated for years, now it appears more clear at the "AAA" level it is more about Nature. If one has a superior system of development, and every kid that you hand pick spends countless hours going through that system, then the need to shorten the bench at the end of the season should not be necessary. It also shows that there is more than one way to be successful.

It does come down to choice and what is best for your kid, not what is best for your ego. The fact that the Machine or Blades would have to shorten the bench says a lot about the athletes they picked, not the system of development they employ. I think both sets see a lot of diminishing returns, given the 100's of hours spent on development.

We here in the Twin Cities have more choices than anyone, so take advantage of it. Even those Tier 1 proponents have a choice to Billet their kid if they are good enough to play for one of the premier Tier 1 teams, just like most of the other kids from all over the country.

It is really about picking the best talent, and hoping they develop at the same pace better then when you got your hands on them.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

In the past teams have had their traditional rivals. Right now the top AAA teams are battling against a private company, that is different.. A win at all costs philosophy to pay the bills. This discussion seems to be more about "the times they are a changing" and many of us are on both sides of how a coach/owner can lead a team consisting of 8 year olds and not let 3 or more players participate the whole game, not one shift. I am sure my pops could have won many of baseball or football games with that game plan....but he didn't and has plenty of friends.

[hillbilly1]

Interesting discussion about the win at all cost mentality at MM. I seem to recall not too long ago there was a discussion about recruiting top kids onto a team for a tournament. I conclude that each team wants to win they just have different ways of going about it.

[holymoly]

The funny thing is that if you were at those games you would have seen that both teams shortened there benches. The are a number of you that like to point the dirty end of the stick at MM, but it is clear that you have a strong bias. The player that did not play most for the Machanie was one of the coaches kid who is a 2000 birthday.

If the shorten there bench so what? If you don't like it don't take part. It's not for everyone. These are both very strong rivals and they are going to do what they have to win.

[Tenoverpar]

Herm Edwards.."This is what's great about sports. This is what the greatest thing about sports is. You play to win the game. Hello? You play to win the game. You don't play it to just play it. That's the great thing about sports: you play to win, and I don't care if you don't have any wins. You go play to win. When you start tellin' me it doesn't matter, then retire. Get out! 'Cause it matters." - Following a reporter's question on the team's ability to win, on October 30, 2002 after a Week 8 loss to the Cleveland Browns left them at 2-5. After this speech however the Jets, sparked by the debut of Quarterback Chad Pennington, would go 7-2 and win the AFC Eastern Division Championship. For more see 2002 New York Jets season.

[WildFan]

So you're trying to compare winning at all costs in the NFL to 8 & 9 yr old kids in summer hockey?...............Classic

Nothing more needs to be said.

[muckandgrind]

If by "shortening the bench" you are putting certain players on the ice for a penalty kill or powerplay at the end of a game or just putting the top group of players on the ice for the last minute or so...I don't have a problem with that. When you have your son or daughter play on an invite AAA team, you should know that going into it.

But if we talking about only playing the 3rd or 4th line on the ice for a few shifts a game, that is completely counter-productive to player development. That kid would develop better playing on a decent "open" AAA team where they can get some more game experience.

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

I agree Minnesota made isn't for everyone. As a parent I need to be concerned with one thing. Development of my son. If you're ok with your son sitting on the bench in any game then you're in it for the image of having your son playing on the Machine. That's it! Spare me on the overall development playing with better kids. Not true!

As parents don't we have to do what's best for our kids? Either he's good enough to play or he's not. Very simple!

Overall Minnesota made does do a great job at developing players. Too bad sometimes winning will come at some one elses expense. In this case we're talking about 9/10 year old kids.

Another thing to keep in mind. The machine had some new players playing this past weekend. They're gearing up for the 2009-2010 AAA season. The players sitting on the bench most likely are the kids looking for new teams next year or new kids they brought in to get a look at.

[OGEE OGELTHORPE]

How about when these teams win 20-0, do they shorten the bench then? Sit the 1st and 2nd liners so the 3rd and 4th liners get more ice time.

If you did that then all the parents could whine equally.

[muckandgrind]

How about when these teams win 20-0, do they shorten the bench then? Sit the 1st and 2nd liners so the 3rd and 4th liners get more ice time.

If you did that then all the parents could whine equally.

A classy coach would never allow a game to get to 20-0....unless you are playing in a pool play situation where goals scored was the tie-breaker.

What coaches should do when the game gets out of reach for the other team is move their forwards to defense and vice versa. Mandate that they pass the puck a minimum number of times before they shoot, or not shoot at all.

[Can't Never Tried]

How about when these teams win 20-0, do they shorten the bench then? Sit the 1st and 2nd liners so the 3rd and 4th liners get more ice time.

If you did that then all the parents could whine equally.

A classy coach would never allow a game to get to 20-0....unless you are playing in a pool play situation where goals scored was the tie-breaker.

What coaches should do when the game gets out of reach for the other team is move their forwards to defense and vice versa. Mandate that they pass the puck a minimum number of times before they shoot, or not shoot at all.

Meeehhh! I don't ever like the idea of telling players not to give 100 %.
If your shortening the bench anyway it's better to let the players that aren't good enough to play on the top lines play more, then they can still give 100% and reduce the scoring naturally.
Also if your beating teams 20-0 WTH are you scheduling games with them for anyway? I realize in Assoc. hockey there's not much you can do about it, but summer AAA I'd think you have a better idea of your competition.

[muckandgrind]

How about when these teams win 20-0, do they shorten the bench then? Sit the 1st and 2nd liners so the 3rd and 4th liners get more ice time.

If you did that then all the parents could whine equally.

A classy coach would never allow a game to get to 20-0....unless you are playing in a pool play situation where goals scored was the tie-breaker.

What coaches should do when the game gets out of reach for the other team is move their forwards to defense and vice versa. Mandate that they pass the puck a minimum number of times before they shoot, or not shoot at all.

Meeehhh! I don't ever like the idea of telling players not to give 100 %.
If your shortening the bench anyway it's better to let the players that aren't good enough to play on the top lines play more, then they can still give 100% and reduce the scoring naturally.
Also if your beating teams 20-0 WTH are you scheduling games with them for anyway? I realize in Assoc. hockey there's not much you can do about it, but summer AAA I'd think you have a better idea of your competition.

You'll run into that in tournaments all the time. Sometimes weaker teams will enter a tournament without always knowing who else has entered the same tournament and get toasted. What I hate to see are some of the stronger invite teams entering open tournaments. Or open teams filling their roster with invite players for an open tournament.

I' would never tell a player to not give 100%. You can still give 100% and not show-up the other team. It's called "being a good sport". I see many coaches tell their kids when they are way up on someone to use the rest of the game as a passing drill, or give the players a chance to move to a different position.

What do they do in football when a team is killing the other? They keep the ball on the ground and don't pass. The same should be for youth hockey....except they should pass, but not shoot.