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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:35 pm
by Melvin44
WBL vs Stillwater. Jan 29th
Everyone knows I'm a fair judge of our team when it comes to penalties.
We faced the worst ref i've EVER seen tonight. I can't believe a person can be so one sided. He hasn't realized his position. To be neutral and consistant. It was unbelievable. His name I think is Denny H? has a stupid mustache. Wow! A ref has to realize he's effecting kids lives. He should be very ashamed of himself!!
11 pens for WBL 3 for stillwater. He started calling penalties as soon as WBL took the lead 2-1.
I know its just a game but my gosh. Just be consistant!!!!
Great job Bears!
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:08 am
by 24checking
Melvin... I hear ya loud and clear... This guy is a complete train wreck and a travesty as a ref in girls hockey. It seems he steps on the ice with an agenda, and is determined to make it happen. This is a ref who needs to be reined in by his peers and/or the MSHSL. Be consistent, but also be good...
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:59 am
by Melvin44
Right on! He was actually waving to the WBL crowd to come down onto the ice. Gives officating a bad name. I do wanna say that 90-95 % of officials are great.
This guy is terrible!
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:04 am
by hockeya1a
Melvin44 wrote:Right on! He was actually waving to the WBL crowd to come down onto the ice. Gives officating a bad name. I do wanna say that 90-95 % of officials are great.
This guy is terrible!
I hear you on a few bad refs! we have had our share too! and all we ever ask for is consistency..
I was talking to a parent from another team and she said that the ref at one of their games took her kids water bottle and was drinking from it, she said all she could think about is that is gross, H1N1 and his dirty hands are touching her cover and he is drinking her water. Even I thought that Gross especially since the kids are not even suppose to take off there gloves to shake per MSHSL
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:39 am
by hockeywild7
I wonder if the white bear fans hanging over the glass waving dollar bills at the ref had anything to do with it? Or maybe the WB players yelling the F word at him? Two 10 minute misconducts for white bear players. This is not new, it is a pattern for them all season long, why now are you so surprised?
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:54 am
by ref101
Melvin44 wrote:WBL vs Stillwater. Jan 29th
Everyone knows I'm a fair judge of our team when it comes to penalties.
We faced the worst ref i've EVER seen tonight. I can't believe a person can be so one sided. He hasn't realized his position. To be neutral and consistant. It was unbelievable. His name I think is Denny H? has a stupid mustache. Wow! A ref has to realize he's effecting kids lives. He should be very ashamed of himself!!
11 pens for WBL 3 for stillwater. He started calling penalties as soon as WBL took the lead 2-1.
I know its just a game but my gosh. Just be consistant!!!!
His name I think is Denny H? Maybe this is Denny Hecker. He needs a few bucks these days!!!
Who is this guy??? Seen him before???
Great job Bears!
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:00 pm
by jumpstart
hockeywild7 wrote:I wonder if the white bear fans hanging over the glass waving dollar bills at the ref had anything to do with it?
Get your facts straight before you post ... there were not "White Bear fan
s hanging over the glass waiving dollar bills at the ref" -- there was one high school boy doing so. The ref had no idea what to do with the fan. He should have warned him or thrown him out, but the ref only made some hand gestures to the boy that no one could have known what they meant -- I sure didn't, and I was sitting next to the action.
I watched the video of the game afterwards, and the refereeing was terrible. There were a number of blatent tripping calls and checks that were not called -- on both teams. I hope both coaches let the league know that they do not want to see these referees at any more games this year.
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:18 pm
by hockeywild7
I have my facts straight alright. You just supported what I said, a white bear fan was waiving money at the ref. Am I right or am I wrong? And yes there could have been many more penalties called but why so many in the first place? What about the swearing at the official; shooting puck after the whistle? Two ten minute misconduct penalties. A few players on that team are out of control and as a fan of hockey I think it puts a black eye on the rest of the White bear team, fans and community. As stated before this is not new, they have a couple players who have amassed alot of penalty minutes so it is hard to blame one set of officials.
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:10 pm
by Melvin44
hockeywild7 wrote:I have my facts straight alright. You just supported what I said, a white bear fan was waiving money at the ref. Am I right or am I wrong? And yes there could have been many more penalties called but why so many in the first place? What about the swearing at the official; shooting puck after the whistle? Two ten minute misconduct penalties. A few players on that team are out of control and as a fan of hockey I think it puts a black eye on the rest of the White bear team, fans and community. As stated before this is not new, they have a couple players who have amassed alot of penalty minutes so it is hard to blame one set of officials.
Are you kidding me????????????????
We have a very very important game where the #2 or 3 seed is at stake in the toughest section. The refs called the first 8-9 penalties on WBL and in my opinion maybe 2 should have been called!!!!!! missed at least 4 that should have been called on STW. WBL had girls who were flying through the air and slammed into the boards and no calls?
If first 9 penalties had been called against Stillwater. You'd see it differently. I i'm pretty sure your comments would be alot worse.
I'm proud of the WBL girls who were playing hockey all night. Who have been talked to and were playing very clean hockey.
Swearing?? who said that the ref?? The slamming the stick was for a line change right by the bench.
What about the stillwater players jumping into the glass without contact? Or the dives?? or the Stillwater fan who's probably the loudest ref blaster ever??? Love him but he's very abusive.
It was the ref talking to the fans. He did wave into the WBL crowd and challenge them to come to the ice. He was smiling egging them on. And remember the first 9 calls went against WBL. We have the game on tape if you want to watch it with me. I'll point out everything as you must not see the game clearly.
Oh and even through all of that the best team won.
I've complained about my Bears this year about penalties. But can say I'm so proud of them after this game.
The ref was an embarrassement and should be held accountable. I also heard it from RV, HM, SSP fans at the game.
I even had some honest Stillwater fans who see the game clearly tell me they couldn't believe what he was doing.
Way to stick up for your HOMER ref. I'm not surprised. You should be ashamed.
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:34 pm
by Melvin44
Players don't deserve refs who feel the need to decide a game. All players work very hard to play the game they love. Referees' are not god and paid good money to be fair.
A person shouldn't be a ref unless he can call a game fairly and consistant. I used to be ref but would sometimes call penalties against the team I was closer to (also not fair).
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:43 pm
by jumpstart
hockeywild7 wrote:I have my facts straight alright. You just supported what I said, a white bear fan was waiving money at the ref. Am I right or am I wrong? And yes there could have been many more penalties called but why so many in the first place? What about the swearing at the official; shooting puck after the whistle? Two ten minute misconduct penalties. A few players on that team are out of control and as a fan of hockey I think it puts a black eye on the rest of the White bear team, fans and community. As stated before this is not new, they have a couple players who have amassed alot of penalty minutes so it is hard to blame one set of officials.
Your initial post made it sound like
many WBL fans were waiving money at the ref when it was one high school kid. I was just setting the record straight. It was up to the referee to handle that situation by either warning the kid, kicking him out, or warning the coach. He did none of that -- he didn't know what to do.
You'll have to ask the refs why there were so many penalties -- especially called against WBL. They missed many penalties that should have been called against both teams. I thought they did a very poor job.
As far as swearing at the official I cannot comment as it is nearly impossible to hear what is said on the ice from the stands. For that same reason, I doubt you heard it either -- probably just repeating what someone else told you. I also never saw a puck shot after the whistle by a WBL player, and I watched the tape after the game.
I have to agree with Melvin about the Stillwater girls deliberately jumping into the boards trying to get a penalty called on WBL. I saw that happen at least three times -- if the refs were paying attention, they should have called embelishment on Stillwater. I also have to say that the Stillwater players either fall down a lot trying to draw penalties, or they are just not very strong skaters. I hope this tactic is not taught to them or condoned by their coaches.
If you have read my previous posts, you know that I am in full agreement that WBL has a couple of nucklehead players that give the rest of the team a bad name. However, in Stillwater's game, neither player took a penalty on the ice. I cannot speak to the 10-minute given to one of them near the end of the game. I was directly above the bench and watched what happened , but I could not hear what was said. If she swore, it was not directed at the ref -- however, if he heard it, it is grounds for a penalty.
I am not blaming the refs -- if you will remember, WBL won the game -- I have nothing to blame them for. And, I think this topic is about referees, good and bad.
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:03 pm
by Melvin44
I'm definitely blaming the ref for losing control and being impartial. I've seen 1000's of hockey games in my life and this was by far the worst officiating I’ve ever seen.
The guy with the mustache. He lost control. He goated players and fans. Made inconsistent calls sometimes less than 2 minutes apart. He was very BAD! He should be suspended or shipped to U10A. (Sorry U10A girls)
The bald gentleman was fine. (Sorry about the bald comment)
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:28 pm
by hockeya1a
jumpstart wrote:hockeywild7 wrote:
I have to agree with Melvin about the Stillwater girls deliberately jumping into the boards trying to get a penalty called on WBL. I saw that happen at least three times -- if the refs were paying attention, they should have called embelishment on Stillwater. I also have to say that the Stillwater players either fall down a lot trying to draw penalties, or they are just not very strong skaters. I hope this tactic is not taught to them or condoned by their coaches.
If you have read my previous posts, you know that I am in full agreement that WBL has a couple of nucklehead players that give the rest of the team a bad name. However, in Stillwater's game, neither player took a penalty on the ice. I cannot speak to the 10-minute given to one of them near the end of the game. I was directly above the bench and watched what happened , but I could not hear what was said. If she swore, it was not directed at the ref -- however, if he heard it, it is grounds for a penalty.
I am not blaming the refs -- if you will remember, WBL won the game -- I have nothing to blame them for. And, I think this topic is about referees, good and bad.
I have too witnessed a lot more of this in the last year or so starting to wonder if Dino Ciccirelli (sp?) is running a camp some where!
I know a couple of girls that were taught to do that and get away with it all the time.
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:33 am
by inthestands
So posting someone's name on a local message board is better behavior than what?
Usually there are 3 sides to every story.
Your side.
The other side.
The truth.
If this official is that bad, the coaching staff and the AD can make sure he doesn't return. If that hasn't happened, someone doesn't have the story straight.
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:42 am
by hockey_rocker
I have to agree. This guy was totally out of hand with his calls. But, more importantly for us, our two girls who tend to struggle a bit really had a great night. One was finally rewarded with an open net goal at the end. Keep it up girls. FYI the bench misconduct was again something this this guy just heard in passing that was not directed at him, he just happened to be by the bench, he does this all the time. And, the kid waving the money? All he was trying to say was, Hey REF what does it take to get you to do your job? He did go a bit overboard though. But then, the ref, (who was right in front of me) signals to the kid to come down there. Plain as day. If he wants the kid thrown out, then go to the announcer's booth call security and have it taken care of. Just another example of how incompitent this guy is. If I was the ref I'd have taken the money, then had the kid thrown out.
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:00 am
by hockeya1a
hockey_rocker wrote:I have to agree. This guy was totally out of hand with his calls. But, more importantly for us, our two girls who tend to struggle a bit really had a great night. One was finally rewarded with an open net goal at the end. Keep it up girls. FYI the bench misconduct was again something this this guy just heard in passing that was not directed at him, he just happened to be by the bench, he does this all the time. And, the kid waving the money? All he was trying to say was, Hey REF what does it take to get you to do your job? He did go a bit overboard though. But then, the ref, (who was right in front of me) signals to the kid to come down there. Plain as day. If he wants the kid thrown out, then go to the announcer's booth call security and have it taken care of. Just another example of how incompitent this guy is. If I was the ref I'd have taken the money, then had the kid thrown out.
1st thing a Ref needs to learn have
THICK skin! And do not react to the fans in the stands. If the ref is so concerned with the fans he/she is not doing their job they need to be oblivious to everything but the game at hand. You know there are enough videos being shot out there make video of the blatant misconduct and send it to the MSHSL and ask that they be removed for dereliction of duty. and to top it off, it is the KIDS they are hurting if you do not like the parents/fans that is fine but do not take it out on the kids!
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:38 am
by hockey77coach
I am not a frequent poster but wanted to give my two cents on the officiating of the WBL/STW game.
If you are going by the book, you could make an arguement that each penalty that was called, should have been called. Unfortunately, when you make one checking call, you need to make them all. The easiest example was in the 3rd period when a STW player clearly checked a WBL player behind the net and into the boards. The official in question was in the right spot and clearly saw the play but called nothing. Play went up the ice and a similar check from a WBL player in front of the benches was now called. This was just one of a few examples.
Officials are human and we all know that calling the game from the stands is much easier. I can get by (barely) with the lack of quality officiating but what about the lack of rule knowledge. In the 3rd period when the official made the 10 minute misconduct call for something that was not directed towards him and not heard by everyone, that should have been a 2 minute unsportsman penalty. If the player would have said something again, than you call the 10 minute misconduct. It looked like the Stillwater coaches were asking about this and that's when the WBL Fan (student) waved money at the official (By the way, most WBL fans were yelling at the student to sit down). After speaking with a couple of Stillwater fans/officials, they were not happy with the way that call was handled.
In a previous WBL game, I saw this same official go straight from a 2 minute penalty to a game misconduct for being told "he sucked". I certainly don't excuse the player but the call should have been a 10 minute misconduct.
It was nice to see the way that WBL overcame the officiating. I saw the coaches telling the players to settle down and I even saw a couple of parents motion to their daughter to stay in control. It's obvious from past posts that WBL has penalty problems and it's hard for officials to block out past games.......but that's their job. Hopefully, the official in question just had a bad night and neither team sees him again this year.
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:20 am
by Melvin44
inthestands wrote:So posting someone's name on a local message board is better behavior than what?
Usually there are 3 sides to every story.
Your side.
The other side.
The truth.
If this official is that bad, the coaching staff and the AD can make sure he doesn't return. If that hasn't happened, someone doesn't have the story straight.
Yes, if a guy chooses to call a game like this guy. I'm going to post his name. I've never seen anything like this. I have the tape and if you'd like to watch it. Come on over. It was insane!
Guys like this have to realize they could be affecting high school kids lives. Just call a fair and consistant game. It's that simple. Obviously some parents, coaches or players feel they're always wronged. The first 8 calls went against one team and like I said I've never seen this before. Ever!
I've commented on our team before on taking bad penalties. They had been talked to before the game and were playing a clean game until this guy chose to play god.
When a player checks someone it's a penalty, when a player slashes someone it's a penalty, when a player trips, hooks, roughs etc. etc. it's a penalty. JUST BE CONSISTANT!
WBL had just as many girls slammed into the boards and truly flying through the air from trips. It was wrong what this guy was doing. It was only him. The other ref called maybe 1 penalty.
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:29 am
by observer
The season isn't long enough now but otherwise the goal for the community, and team, to earn back respect, is to go 10 games with zero penalties. Somehow, right or wrong, and it really doesn't make any difference how, the team has a reputation for not smart play. Change the style of play. The game is called hockey not let's bang some bodies. You're in a deep hole and only good behavior can change the impression that the team plays the game the wrong way. Whether or not you think it's true, that's the impression.
When the coach let's things go early in the year it's hard to get control back later. It's easy. Get a peanalty and sit the rest of the period. Get another and sit the rest of the game.
Additionally, the behavior of one single team in the community can make it difficult for every other team as the word gets out and then every other team is at a disadvantage as the reputation of one team hurts the other 25 teams in the community. they have red flags waving from their uniforms before the game even starts. Respect needs to be earned and right now you're not getting it.
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:36 am
by Melvin44
observer wrote:The season isn't long enough now but otherwise the goal for the community, and team, to earn back respect, is to go 10 games with zero penalties. Somehow, right or wrong, and it really doesn't make any difference how, the team has a reputation for not smart play. Change the style of play. The game is called hockey not let's bang some bodies. You're in a deep hole and only good behavior can change the impression that the team plays the game the wrong way. Whether or not you think it's true, that's the impression.
When the coach let's things go early in the year it's hard to get control back later. It's easy. Get a peanalty and sit the rest of the period. Get another and sit the rest of the game.
Additionally, the behavior of one single team in the community can make it difficult for every other team as the word gets out and then every other team is at a disadvantage as the reputation of one team hurts the other 25 teams in the community. they have red flags waving from their uniforms before the game even starts. Respect needs to be earned and right now you're not getting it.
Agree 100%. But a ref should NEVER EVER come in to a game with a pre judged opinion of a team. EVER!
They should aways be neutral! Always!
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:44 am
by Melvin44
hockey77coach wrote:I am not a frequent poster but wanted to give my two cents on the officiating of the WBL/STW game.
If you are going by the book, you could make an arguement that each penalty that was called, should have been called.
I do dissagree. There were many that shouldn't have been called(unless you call them both ways). Players need to be able to play hockey. Fight for the puck. Battle. But if you're going to call these types of penalties. Be Consistant and fair. That's what I'm saying.
There were calls when players were marking up. There were 2 calls when players ran into one another. Yes, judgement calls. But were only called on one team. Of course any type of swearing should result in at least a 10 minute misconduct.
Anyone who knows me knows I will always admit when our team is taking stupid deserved penalties.
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:03 am
by hockeya1a
Melvin44 wrote:hockey77coach wrote:I am not a frequent poster but wanted to give my two cents on the officiating of the WBL/STW game.
If you are going by the book, you could make an arguement that each penalty that was called, should have been called.
I do dissagree. There were many that shouldn't have been called(unless you call them both ways). Players need to be able to play hockey. Fight for the puck. Battle. But if you're going to call these types of penalties. Be Consistant and fair. That's what I'm saying.
There were calls when players were marking up. There were 2 calls when players ran into one another. Yes, judgement calls. But were only called on one team. Of course any type of swearing should result in at least a 10 minute misconduct.
Anyone who knows me knows I will always admit when our team is taking stupid deserved penalties.
Melvin44 I have read into your post to be from the heart and very unbiased,
Just my thought, I believe that no 1 ref should be able to have so much control over the game I think the referee’s peer should hold some say in the matter and if they think they are out of hand should say something, Mind you this may not always work if the other Ref did not see the infraction. Do you guys usually run a 2 or 3 ref system?
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:08 am
by observer
I now divide penalties into three catagories.
Accidental Hard Working
Player is working hard on back check and accidentally get their stick in the feet of the opposing player and she trips. Accidental Hard Working.
Dumb
Player is pushed and they punch to the face. Any retaliation penalty. Dumb.
Not Worth the Risk
This is my new catagory and it encompasses all others not accidental or dumb. Back checking hard and being a little agressive with the stick. Could be a slash, could be a hook, could be nothing, but not worth the risk. Different refs call things differently so the idea is you don't know how it will be called so don't do it. Not Worth the Risk. I saw a game where the opponent wacked at the goalie on every single shot and save. Maybe 30 times in the game. Saw another game where one player takes one wack at a goalie after a save and goes to the box for a slash. Probably not worth the risk. The refs can call whatever they want, whenever they want, so it's not a bad call but the player did something that probably wasn't worth the risk. Most difficult for the players to understand.
The other thing is that they aren't debateable with the coach. You get a penalty, accidental, dumb or not worth the risk and you sit. You got a penalty, our team is shorthanded because of you, and you sit. Period
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:18 am
by Melvin44
observer wrote:I now divide penalties into three catagories.
Accidental Hard Working
Player is working hard on back check and accidentally get their stick in the feet of the opposing player and she trips. Accidental Hard Working.
Dumb
Player is pushed and they punch to the face. Any retaliation penalty. Dumb.
Not Worth the Risk
This is my new catagory and it encompasses all others not accidental or dumb. Back checking hard and being a little agressive with the stick. Could be a slash, could be a hook, could be nothing, but not worth the risk. Different refs call things differently so the idea is you don't know how it will be called so don't do it. Not Worth the Risk. I saw a game where the opponent wacked at the goalie on every single shot and save. Maybe 30 times in the game. Saw another game where one player takes one wack at a goalie after a save and goes to the box for a slash. Probably not worth the risk. The refs can call whatever they want, whenever they want, so it's not a bad call but the player did something that probably wasn't worth the risk. Most difficult for the players to understand.
The other thing is that they aren't debateable with the coach. You get a penalty, accidental, dumb or not worth the risk and you sit. You got a penalty, our team is shorthanded because of you, and you sit. Period
I'll agree.
One more thing.
Please Please I hope all aren't judging this team because of a couple of players who are trying to work out the boy hockey syndrom. This team has a lot of big hearted, hard working, dedicated, determined girls. They do deserve the best and deserve to not be judged by the few.
Every team has their rough/aggressive players. Ours just like to check and should be thrown out of the game when they do. I will never accept this attitude. But the whole team shouldn't be viewed this way.
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:52 am
by wild77
Melvin44 wrote:WBL vs Stillwater. Jan 29th
Everyone knows I'm a fair judge of our team when it comes to penalties.
We faced the worst ref i've EVER seen tonight. I can't believe a person can be so one sided. He hasn't realized his position. To be neutral and consistant. It was unbelievable. His name I think is Denny H? has a stupid mustache. Wow! A ref has to realize he's effecting kids lives. He should be very ashamed of himself!!
11 pens for WBL 3 for stillwater. He started calling penalties as soon as WBL took the lead 2-1.
I know its just a game but my gosh. Just be consistant!!!!
Great job Bears!
I've read thru all these posts and it might just be me, but aren't you getting a little too upset about this? Reffing, good or bad, really has no effect on girl's lives or any of our lives. I have also seen the WBL girls play and they are a decent team. They did take too many penalties and some were ill-timed, but that's hockey. You can't want it more than the girls.