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PanthersIn2011 wrote:These guys are the Chefs:

BTW - most overrated hockey movie in history.

How bout we use the association model of one hour games? That will close the scoring gap.

MrBoDangles wrote:How bout we use the association model of one hour games? That will close the scoring gap.

Whistled off-sides helps lower scoring too.

HockeyDad41 wrote:As summer hockey matures, I think the hope would be for the lopsided scores to balance out and every team finds it correct level of competition.

Again, it's unfortunate that hockey between March and September is referred to as AAA, that term is not indicative of the current trend in summer hockey. I think it makes sense to call it something like Elite, Invite and Open. You know kind of like winter has A, B, & C.

Do a good job of picking your team and get in the correct tournaments and it all works out. Easy right?

Elite. More over used than AAA.

The difference between Association (too many rules) and AAA summer (no rules) hockey is just that - rules. AAA essentially has no player participation rules except you cannot exceed the birthyear you are playing at (you can't play down) and even that rule can be broken if the kid is not well known since photos and birth certificates are rarely required.

Many an AAA team can go from top to bottom in the pool, from invite to open depending upon what players are pulled in on any given weekend. Then add in some coaches wanting to win and other coaches to test their kids beyond their abilities and you can have a weekend headed for disaster - well at least based on posted scores.

Marty wrote:

HockeyDad41 wrote:As summer hockey matures, I think the hope would be for the lopsided scores to balance out and every team finds it correct level of competition.

Again, it's unfortunate that hockey between March and September is referred to as AAA, that term is not indicative of the current trend in summer hockey. I think it makes sense to call it something like Elite, Invite and Open. You know kind of like winter has A, B, & C.

Do a good job of picking your team and get in the correct tournaments and it all works out. Easy right?

Elite. More over used than AAA.

The difference between Association (too many rules) and AAA summer (no rules) hockey is just that - rules. AAA essentially has no player participation rules except you cannot exceed the birthyear you are playing at (you can't play down) and even that rule can be broken if the kid is not well known since photos and birth certificates are rarely required.

Many an AAA team can go from top to bottom in the pool, from invite to open depending upon what players are pulled in on any given weekend. Then add in some coaches wanting to win and other coaches to test their kids beyond their abilities and you can have a weekend headed for disaster - well at least based on posted scores.

I don't disagree with anything you've written. In fact you've done a nice job of identifying a couple of the issues.

In the end though, I'm more inclined to just continue to complain about it than to move it too close to the winter model.

InigoMontoya wrote:

Who should do a better job?????

Good question. Who is responsible for scouting 7 year olds and tracking which summer teams they're playing on, so they can deny entry to the elite division?

Also still looking for that magic number of AAA teams that is acceptable. It must not be 40 or 50. Is it 30, 20, ... 10?

The answer to the question is, the individual team or program should police their own, and enter the level tournament that their skill level fits. I've read many times on this forum and most agree, kids should play at the level where they can be successful. But, I guess that only applies to association hockey and individuals. When it comes to summer hockey, throw out all that logic, because it doesn't apply. Play wherever you want, weather you can be successful or not. It just doesn't make sense.

But, we're off subject again. The question was is AAA hockey diluted? I believe it is. Just like some pro sport leagues. Now, instead of criticizing and putting words in my mouth, please answer the question yes or no, and explain why.

HockeyDad41 wrote:As summer hockey matures, I think the hope would be for the lopsided scores to balance out and every team finds it correct level of competition.

Again, it's unfortunate that hockey between March and September is referred to as AAA, that term is not indicative of the current trend in summer hockey. I think it makes sense to call it something like Elite, Invite and Open. You know kind of like winter has A, B, & C.

Do a good job of picking your team and get in the correct tournaments and it all works out. Easy right?

Agreed!

Thank you all of your comments on this topic.

When my son played, Showcase called their league - AAA Development League which was very fitting back then. Then the Super Rink created the D1 AAA league.

I agree that, for the most part, AAA Hockey = Summer Hockey. Could you imagine that poor kid, or should I say parents, that had to play on a summer A or B team.

Back in the mid-2000's, I remember talking to a number of well informed people and we all agreed that if the kids from MN wanted to compete with the AAA teams from other regions (Honey Baked, Compuware, etc...), we would have enough players for 4 or 5 teams (excluding out-state kids).

Again - very interesting comments and thank you!

Ugottobekiddingme wrote:I was at that same practice in Orlando watching kids skating behind the walker...what was your question?....

No AAA hockey anywhere near Orlando. And RDV does not have walkers. SCI does, an hour away.

Some interesting thoughts. Looking at the Cariou Cup I wonder where does a team like the 99 Machine play? I saw them play 99 Velocity and sadly it ended Machine winning 14 - 0

The Machine record for the Caribou was:
7-0 over Ice edge Blue
7-3 over Wis Flyers
14-0 over Reebok Nationals
14-0 over Velocity
7-2 over The Blades

I think the problem is not that that there are to many AAA teams but that the it seem to be impossible to get the strongest players on to three or four teams. If the best players from Reeebok, Velocity came together you would have a much stronger team that could compete with the Machine.
There are enough strong players that if collected on to 3 or 4 teams, Minnesota would have teams other than the Machine that could compete anywhere including Canada.

I dont think the problem is that it is watered down. I think the problem is that it is very muddy. When the players are young the parents don't know which direction to take them. "What is the program that is the best fit for my son talent and potential" most go to team close to home because AAA is AAA right? Once team are established and relationships are formed it is now harder to shuffle the deck and concentrate the stronger players on to three or four top teams.

To the problem, the Winnipeg North American Classic is now going to have three levels of AAA Hockey

Super Elite
AAA
Open

My guess is that the level they will have the most trouble filling will be the Super Elite. There are so few "Super Elite AAA" team out there. How many parents can handle finishing at the bottom of the Super Elite when they could win the AAA level. If we look at our top programs at the 99 level where would they play? The Machine at the Super Elite, they finished second last year. What about the 99 Blades I believe went 1 and 4. Are they a Super Elite or Just a AAA level team. Will the team stick together if they have a poor showing or will the parents pull it apart? To avoid a poor showing will they enter just the AAA level.

As is so often the case we parents are a big part of the problem.

This is not a knock on the Blades. It is just an example that works.

scrapiron wrote:Some interesting thoughts. Looking at the Cariou Cup I wonder where does a team like the 99 Machine play? I saw them play 99 Velocity and sadly it ended Machine winning 14 - 0

The Machine record for the Caribou was:
7-0 over Ice edge Blue
7-3 over Wis Flyers
14-0 over Reebok Nationals
14-0 over Velocity
7-2 over The Blades

I think the problem is not that that there are to many AAA teams but that the it seem to be impossible to get the strongest players on to three or four teams. If the best players from Reeebok, Velocity came together you would have a much stronger team that could compete with the Machine.
There are enough strong players that if collected on to 3 or 4 teams, Minnesota would have teams other than the Machine that could compete anywhere including Canada.

I dont think the problem is that it is watered down. I think the problem is that it is very muddy. When the players are young the parents don't know which direction to take them. "What is the program that is the best fit for my son talent and potential" most go to team close to home because AAA is AAA right? Once team are established and relationships are formed it is now harder to shuffle the deck and concentrate the stronger players on to three or four top teams.

To the problem, the Winnipeg North American Classic is now going to have three levels of AAA Hockey

Super Elite
AAA
Open

My guess is that the level they will have the most trouble filling will be the Super Elite. There are so few "Super Elite AAA" team out there. How many parents can handle finishing at the bottom of the Super Elite when they could win the AAA level. If we look at our top programs at the 99 level where would they play? The Machine at the Super Elite, they finished second last year. What about the 99 Blades I believe went 1 and 4. Are they a Super Elite or Just a AAA level team. Will the team stick together if they have a poor showing or will the parents pull it apart? To avoid a poor showing will they enter just the AAA level.

As is so often the case we parents are a big part of the problem.

This is not a knock on the Blades. It is just an example that works.

I agree that if you combine Velocity and the Nats you would have a top team. That's one of my points. If you combined the Miracle Gold and Legacy teams, The Ice Edge 2 teams with The Edge, SKE with say Comp Edge, now you have 3 more teams who would fair better against teams like the Machine and the Blades. Never happen because they all need to have their own teams to provide income. A disclaimer here! I'm not knocking any of these teams, they are all good programs and have good teams at the 99 level. They provide opportunities for MN kids to play summer hockey, and I'm just using them as an example. Call it diluted, or Muddied, the top players are spread very thin, do to the boom of new programs in the last few years. It can't help be diluted or muddied.

As far as the 99 Machine, your talking about the exception here. Right now they're above everyone else. That's why they go out of state to play other top teams. The Blades also go out of state. The rest of the teams should have no problem finding a level where they can be challenged and have success at the same time.

I agree that if you combine Velocity and the Nats you would have a top team. That's one of my points. If you combined the Miracle Gold and Legacy teams, The Ice Edge 2 teams with The Edge, SKE with say Comp Edge, now you have 3 more teams who would fair better against teams like the Machine and the Blades.

The rest of the teams should have no problem finding a level where they can be challenged and have success at the same time.

I am still not able to understand your primary point. Should we combine 8 teams to make 3 teams that can compete with the Machine or Blades, or should those 8 teams have not problem being challenged and having success?

The parents that bring their kids to the Machine and Blades programs understand that they will spend as much money travelling as they do on hockey. They are two models that seem to be working well for them. I personally also like that they play a couple tournaments in town (s&s, walleye, caribou); this gives some other programs a chance to test themselves against the best, and it provides an opportunity to bring teams from all over (canada, colorado, california - no idea why illinois and michigan have yet to jump in, maybe soon) to Minnesota.

The reality behind the free market is that you need to provide a quality product or service, or people will not be willing to spend their money on it. If the Icemen or the Ice Edge or the Northern Edge or the Edge or CCM or Legacy or Velocity, etc. choose to provide quality coaches or quality ice time or quality tournament, kids and parents will go somewhere else. Parents can choose between programs that provide more than 100 hours of development or programs that take off the entire months of June and July; that expect your kid at every single practice or expect your kid will miss due to baseball, soccer, lacrosse, (even fishing with grandpa).

I was responding to Scrapiron who said "It seems impossible to get the strongest players on three or four teams". I'm not saying it's the way to go, but it adds to my point, that I believe AAA teams are diluted, muddied, whatever you want to call it from even 3, 4, 5, years ago.

In your opinion, do you believe teams are diluted? Do you believe they're stronger? From top to bottom how do the teams compare to years past?

Maybe "AAA" Specifically is diluted, but I would say the over all talent of youth in the state is up overall from 5-10 years ago. I am simply amazed at the skill of young kids these days. Mites, Squirts and Pee - Wees for that matter are light years ahead of where kids were less than a generation ago.

I think things may appear muddied, but maybe its that the talent gap is closing. There will always be those kids that are head and shoulders above and beyond everyone else, but now I think the gaps between the next level of skater has shrunk. Is this in a part to more AAA options? I would say yes. At a younger age kids have higher level options than association hockey. I'll use my son as an example. He is a last year mite this season, pretty serious about hockey and a pretty good player coming off last year. This summer was our first experience with AAA, an open team. Just being on a team where all 14 kids gave a crap and gave max effort improved his game significantly. Something I'm sure wouldn't have happened without our AAA option.

Elite players will always rise above, but more competition can only be a good thing.

hockeyover40 wrote:

InigoMontoya wrote:

Gone are the days of friends putting together a team, getting some ice time, and entering some tournaments.

Don't just wax rhapsodic about it; put together a team of your boys friends, skate a couple times, and enter a tournament.

The reason those days are over is because those "diluted" teams would kick your butt. They are bigger, faster, stronger, and more talented - all of them.

IM, Maybe your not aware of how good some of these teams were. When these teams were put together and entered tournaments they played against the top AAA teams that were around at the time. And they competed. I'm not talking about the neighborhood kids in one area of town, but of friends from a larger area. Ya know maybe Edina, Jefferson, Burnsville, Mpls. They would get enough ice for the summer, practice and enter 3-4 tournaments. Coached by dads that volunteer their time, not made their living running the team. If you don't think that having all the AAA teams that are around now days dilutes the skill level, just ask yourself what all the expansion of pro sports did to the overall skill level of their sport.

As for my boy and his friends. You don't even know my boy, so how the H*ll do you know what kind of team they would make?

Here, you are stating the importance of very skilled kids playing against other very skilled kids.. It must be much worse then in association Hockey when it is much more dilluted, right? The last sentence of your first paragraph is the REAL kicker.

We will not allow folks, like you, to bring Tier 1( )Hockey to this state..!!

Bo you trying to lock up another thread?

Pucksahater wrote:Bo you trying to lock up another thread?

I guess you don't see the contradiction..

MrBoDangles wrote:

Pucksahater wrote:Bo you trying to lock up another thread?

I guess you don't see the contradiction..

MrBoDangles wrote:

hockeyover40 wrote:

InigoMontoya wrote: Don't just wax rhapsodic about it; put together a team of your boys friends, skate a couple times, and enter a tournament.

The reason those days are over is because those "diluted" teams would kick your butt. They are bigger, faster, stronger, and more talented - all of them.

IM, Maybe your not aware of how good some of these teams were. When these teams were put together and entered tournaments they played against the top AAA teams that were around at the time. And they competed. I'm not talking about the neighborhood kids in one area of town, but of friends from a larger area. Ya know maybe Edina, Jefferson, Burnsville, Mpls. They would get enough ice for the summer, practice and enter 3-4 tournaments. Coached by dads that volunteer their time, not made their living running the team. If you don't think that having all the AAA teams that are around now days dilutes the skill level, just ask yourself what all the expansion of pro sports did to the overall skill level of their sport.

As for my boy and his friends. You don't even know my boy, so how the H*ll do you know what kind of team they would make?

Here, you are stating the importance of very skilled kids playing against other very skilled kids.. It must be much worse then in association Hockey when it is much more dilluted, right? The last sentence of your first paragraph is the REAL kicker.

We will not allow folks, like you, to bring Tier 1( )Hockey to this state..!!

Bo, I think you have the wrong quote. I didn't mention you, or Tier 1 hockey in my quote. Look again.

HockeyDad41 wrote: On another note, we need to do something about winter hockey. Talk about watered down........

I really hope you are kidding with this statement HD41. If not then I am curious as to your thoughts on this.

Elite is now suppose to mean what AAA meant years ago. I think Elite is overused.

It's time to either to add a Super-Duper division or Quadruple A.