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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:23 pm
by Scout716
Through the years i have seen so many parents get so wrapped up in putting their kids in situations that the kids really don't want. We always forget to ask the kids. kids love to win, score goals, have fun. They need coaches that are not serious all the time, they need coaches that know how to develop with variety. one seems to forget there are more kids playing this game that are not on AAAAA top level teams. and for a good share of those kids playing top AAAAA hockey they really aren't competing at that level anyway. Parents then see thier kids strugeling and place blame on the coaches deficiencies. Lets let things play out and judge after the fact - not before
I sound like a preacher
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:58 pm
by Stripes2011
Amen (I couldn't resist)
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:58 pm
by InTheKnow
MrBoDangles wrote:BadgerBob82 wrote:If I read this right, 12 waiver requests? An association that had 1 request last year and 4 this year has quadrupled. 12 requests out of 1,000's of kids is not really an epidemic?
Too many people seem worried about Edina, Wayzata or OMG? I understand Bo's concerns with a small association on the fringes of the metro area that District with big associations. But when looking at the entire state of hockey and the various mindsets of associations, only THREE associations consistently have fielded 2 A teams in the past. (Lakeville, Rochester and last year Wayzata) This year the state could have about 40-50 new A level teams. Some created by large associations fielding two A teams, and others by associations moving B1 teams to the A level.
I also agree with Bo that large associations will still dominate the AA, A, B1, B2 and C levels. Hopefully these large associations will see the benefits after year 1, and will field a AA, 2A 2B1, etc in future years. Also kids stuck at the B1-B2 level in large associations might just start moving/waiving to smaller associations to play A level?
I also agree with Bo that many parents will be furious their A level player is perceived to no longer be playing at the highest level provided. That is purely ego problems as the reality is they are all playing at the "A" level. Instead of these ego Dads having to tell people their kid didn't even make it into District playoffs, they can now say, my kid's team is going to State. (Nobody will even ask if it's AA, A or B level State)
The problem with the twelve waiving into this one(?) mega association is that these were the studs(probably all 12) of the medium to small associations. They must know how their personal talent stacks up from Summer AAA, if they're waiving into mega associations. And to think this is only ONE association taking in this talent..
I know of three kids(northern metro
) that are going/moving to Edina and they'll all probably make their A Squirt/PeeWee team or be very close. Does Edina need more highly talented players? No. Can the small to medium associations afford to lose their studs? No. The FUTURE balance of High School Hockey in Mn has been severely damaged by MNH for many years to come from this.
We both heard (and remember) other's comments during our conversations that there should only be "12", "16", "18", "20", "24", "32" Elite teams allowed to play at this new AA level.... This is how people think and other people are now reacting to this way of thinking by making their move. This has not been about balance, it's been driven by creating a new elite level to ward off Tier 1 in Mn..... They now have their wish and all the talent is now congregating to the assocaitions that they know will make MNH's new AA Elite 32 Tournament....... = MNH's own version of Tier 1 AAA.
Once again, nothing will really change besides the rich getting richer.....
Please don't shoot the messenger.
Unless the family is moving to Edina, they can't waiver in unless their association doesn't field an A team. Also, checked witha buddy of mine that is on the EHA board, and as of now they have zero waviers into the association at Edina.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:58 pm
by BBgunner
Scout Well said.... IHEA I agree with Badger completely off base.
If you take an association like Blaine at Bantam last season had a AA team, An upper B1 and a Lower B1, and a B2 team. If you look at the records the upper B1 team was strong in district play while the lower team struggled. With the new format, an association like this can keep that lower B1 team playing a more balanced schedule and not one where kids get blown out and stomped on.
Ok so what about the A kids that now play the AA kids and could get stomped on? If the model stays as I have heard they will play an unbalanced schedule which means they will play each AA team once and each A team twice. Then have seperate playoffs and state tournament.
So the changing of the letters does mean a few things, that upper B1 team becomes an A team and does not stomp on what are lower B1 teams from big districts or the second group of 15 kids from a small district that only has 28 or 30 kids and maybe cannot compete at the upper B1 level. Associations do not have to fight with the balanced B1 or upper and lower B1 teams anymore, and have more options as to where the talent pool puts them. Now a Cambridge or Irondale can put in an A team and a B1 and both should be competitive at the levels they will be playing where in the past they may have been forced to play A and get destroyed.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:05 pm
by skipperj
there is no AAAAA hockey, only AAAA hockey.. who's ever heard of AAAAA hockey.... j/k. I think too many people on here and over the top parents freaking out. Just let the kids play and if it's a disaster, this pilot will be 1 and done.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:14 pm
by spin-o-rama
MrBoDangles wrote: The problem with the twelve waiving into this one(?) mega association is that these were the studs(probably all 12) of the medium to small associations. They must know how their personal talent stacks up from Summer AAA, if they're waiving into mega associations. And to think this is only ONE association taking in this talent..
If there really are 12 AA kids moving into 1 association, I'm sure we'll hear the wailing when 12 homegrown kids get bumped off the AA team. I seriously doubt this will be happening.
MrBoDangles wrote:I know of three kids(northern metro
) that are going/moving to Edina and they'll all probably make their A Squirt/PeeWee team or be very close. Does Edina need more highly talented players? No. Can the small to medium associations afford to lose their studs? No. The FUTURE balance of High School Hockey in Mn has been severely damaged by MNH for many years to come from this.
Families are always moving into Edina for the hockey. I don't think this year's crop will be any more than the usual. Anders Lee moved in as a squirt and played A. John Madden's kid moved in as a squirt and played A. But the reality is there is little room for guaranteed spots. Let us know how the 3 do in tryouts.
MrBoDangles wrote: We both heard (and remember) other's comments during our conversations that there should only be "12", "16", "18", "20", "24", "32" Elite teams allowed to play at this new AA level.... This is how people think and other people are now reacting to this way of thinking by making their move. This has not been about balance, it's been driven by creating a new elite level to ward off Tier 1 in Mn..... They now have their wish and all the talent is now congregating to the assocaitions that they know will make MNH's new AA Elite 32 Tournament....... = MNH's own version of Tier 1 AAA.
Once again, nothing will really change besides the rich getting richer.....
Please don't shoot the messenger.
The rich do get richer. But I don't think the AA/A decision is accelerating that at all.
Just curious, is NB going to field A teams this year? If so, isn't that what you wanted? The chance for top players from small associations to be able to play games against the highest level teams in the state?
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:16 pm
by Towelie
BBgunner wrote:Scout Well said.... IHEA I agree with Badger completely off base.
If you take an association like Blaine at Bantam last season had a AA team, An upper B1 and a Lower B1, and a B2 team. If you look at the records the upper B1 team was strong in district play while the lower team struggled. With the new format, an association like this can keep that lower B1 team playing a more balanced schedule and not one where kids get blown out and stomped on.
Ok so what about the A kids that now play the AA kids and could get stomped on? If the model stays as I have heard they will play an unbalanced schedule which means they will play each AA team once and each A team twice. Then have seperate playoffs and state tournament.
So the changing of the letters does mean a few things, that upper B1 team becomes an A team and does not stomp on what are lower B1 teams from big districts or the second group of 15 kids from a small district that only has 28 or 30 kids and maybe cannot compete at the upper B1 level. Associations do not have to fight with the balanced B1 or upper and lower B1 teams anymore, and have more options as to where the talent pool puts them. Now a Cambridge or Irondale can put in an A team and a B1 and both should be competitive at the levels they will be playing where in the past they may have been forced to play A and get destroyed.
You and Badger are a like...both rambling and not making any sense. Didnt know Blaine had a AA team last season? Also, a team doesn't "have" to play A like you are stating for Cambridge and Irondale. I'm not sure they are forced to do anything. Take New Prague for example a few years back. They chose to not field an A pee wee team and instead just fielded a B1.
In my opinion, when it all is said and done it's about the money and keeping parents/kids happy. Instead of little Johnny saying I'm on a B team now he gets to say he's on an A team and so on. Plus now there will be 3 state tournaments...AA, A and B1..more revenue. Same reason they took checking out of Pee Wees...to make sure youth hockey players stay interested and don't get scared away by hitting when we really should start teaching it at the squirt level when kids are all the same size.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:20 pm
by MrBoDangles
Scout716 wrote:Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Close. Except, assc. like FL who will play AA/B1. then our 16 thru 30 end up playing the "old B2".
wouldn't this the give some B-1 Teams that have struggled in the past the chance to have alittle better win loss record? As well as those Struggling A teams of the past, now play another associations 16 - 30 may make them more competitive as well. I have seen, MN Big associations, B teams that have been just as good if not better then some of these A teams. so maybe - just maybe everything will balance out? At the end of day the kids still get to play hockey, and possibly win a game or two more - just a thought, trying to look at all sides
Sounds wonderful! The question though is if the 16-30 players/parents will swallow their pride playing two levels back from 1-15 in an association that goes AA and then B-1.. I highly doubt it! Bye Bye to playing Hockey..
And now those 2-3 ranked "MN Big associations, B teams" 's best players are now going to all be on one A(really B-1)(but would ACTUALLY BE a really good AA) team.
And what do we have if they start having more than one A(b-1) team.......? *We would have the same system we currently have.
And they say they want small associations to play A(new b-1) now against associations that pounded them without combining their 16-30?
And people say this is going to help small associations advance far in a playoff system....
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:23 pm
by MrBoDangles
InTheKnow wrote:MrBoDangles wrote:BadgerBob82 wrote:If I read this right, 12 waiver requests? An association that had 1 request last year and 4 this year has quadrupled. 12 requests out of 1,000's of kids is not really an epidemic?
Too many people seem worried about Edina, Wayzata or OMG? I understand Bo's concerns with a small association on the fringes of the metro area that District with big associations. But when looking at the entire state of hockey and the various mindsets of associations, only THREE associations consistently have fielded 2 A teams in the past. (Lakeville, Rochester and last year Wayzata) This year the state could have about 40-50 new A level teams. Some created by large associations fielding two A teams, and others by associations moving B1 teams to the A level.
I also agree with Bo that large associations will still dominate the AA, A, B1, B2 and C levels. Hopefully these large associations will see the benefits after year 1, and will field a AA, 2A 2B1, etc in future years. Also kids stuck at the B1-B2 level in large associations might just start moving/waiving to smaller associations to play A level?
I also agree with Bo that many parents will be furious their A level player is perceived to no longer be playing at the highest level provided. That is purely ego problems as the reality is they are all playing at the "A" level. Instead of these ego Dads having to tell people their kid didn't even make it into District playoffs, they can now say, my kid's team is going to State. (Nobody will even ask if it's AA, A or B level State)
The problem with the twelve waiving into this one(?) mega association is that these were the studs(probably all 12) of the medium to small associations. They must know how their personal talent stacks up from Summer AAA, if they're waiving into mega associations. And to think this is only ONE association taking in this talent..
I know of three kids(northern metro
) that are going/moving to Edina and they'll all probably make their A Squirt/PeeWee team or be very close. Does Edina need more highly talented players? No. Can the small to medium associations afford to lose their studs? No. The FUTURE balance of High School Hockey in Mn has been severely damaged by MNH for many years to come from this.
We both heard (and remember) other's comments during our conversations that there should only be "12", "16", "18", "20", "24", "32" Elite teams allowed to play at this new AA level.... This is how people think and other people are now reacting to this way of thinking by making their move. This has not been about balance, it's been driven by creating a new elite level to ward off Tier 1 in Mn..... They now have their wish and all the talent is now congregating to the assocaitions that they know will make MNH's new AA Elite 32 Tournament....... = MNH's own version of Tier 1 AAA.
Once again, nothing will really change besides the rich getting richer.....
Please don't shoot the messenger.
Unless the family is moving to Edina, they can't waiver in unless their association doesn't field an A team. Also, checked witha buddy of mine that is on the EHA board, and as of now they have zero waviers into the association at Edina.
Moving/Schooling
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:24 pm
by stonehands
There is a Trophy at the Saint Louis Park Rec Center from a SLP Squirt A team from about four years ago that included players such as Keegan Iverson, Passolt, Hale, Jablonski and Baer (forgive me if I'm missing others) all became VERY solid players and contributors at the High School level as Freshman (Jablonski certainly would have)
Point is - Can't buy in to the mass exodus from the new "A" associations to the "AA".
Always plenty of chance for success with smaller associations - parents meddling and moving for greener pastures most likely will create a messy road for their little Gretzky.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:39 pm
by MrBoDangles
spin-o-rama wrote:MrBoDangles wrote: The problem with the twelve waiving into this one(?) mega association is that these were the studs(probably all 12) of the medium to small associations. They must know how their personal talent stacks up from Summer AAA, if they're waiving into mega associations. And to think this is only ONE association taking in this talent..
If there really are 12 AA kids moving into 1 association, I'm sure we'll hear the wailing when 12 homegrown kids get bumped off the AA team. I seriously doubt this will be happening.
MrBoDangles wrote:I know of three kids(northern metro
) that are going/moving to Edina and they'll all probably make their A Squirt/PeeWee team or be very close. Does Edina need more highly talented players? No. Can the small to medium associations afford to lose their studs? No. The FUTURE balance of High School Hockey in Mn has been severely damaged by MNH for many years to come from this.
Families are always moving into Edina for the hockey. I don't think this year's crop will be any more than the usual. Anders Lee moved in as a squirt and played A. John Madden's kid moved in as a squirt and played A. But the reality is there is little room for guaranteed spots. Let us know how the 3 do in tryouts.
MrBoDangles wrote: We both heard (and remember) other's comments during our conversations that there should only be "12", "16", "18", "20", "24", "32" Elite teams allowed to play at this new AA level.... This is how people think and other people are now reacting to this way of thinking by making their move. This has not been about balance, it's been driven by creating a new elite level to ward off Tier 1 in Mn..... They now have their wish and all the talent is now congregating to the assocaitions that they know will make MNH's new AA Elite 32 Tournament....... = MNH's own version of Tier 1 AAA.
Once again, nothing will really change besides the rich getting richer.....
Please don't shoot the messenger.
The rich do get richer. But I don't think the AA/A decision is accelerating that at all.
Just curious, is NB going to field A teams this year? If so, isn't that what you wanted? The chance for top players from small associations to be able to play games against the highest level teams in the state?
A couple years ago Edina had 3 kids move in that bumped kids off the A Bantam team.. I would bet a good number of kids get bumped in Edina from Squirts through Bantams from kids coming in.
Everyone knows it has accelerated BIG TIME.
North Branch should have their first ever A(AA?) team, at any level. at the Squirt level. Might have had the best group of 3rd graders in District 10 last year. Pretty sure they will go B-1 at PeeWee and no Bantam team this year.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:44 pm
by SWPrez
stonehands wrote:There is a Trophy at the Saint Louis Park Rec Center from a SLP Squirt A team from about four years ago that included players such as Keegan Iverson, Passolt, Hale, Jablonski and Baer (forgive me if I'm missing others) all became VERY solid players and contributors at the High School level as Freshman (Jablonski certainly would have)
Point is - Can't buy in to the mass exodus from the new "A" associations to the "AA".
Always plenty of chance for success with smaller associations - parents meddling and moving for greener pastures most likely will create a messy road for their little Gretzky.
That was the combined Minneapolis/SLP program. It was Peewee A and they almost pulled some big upsets at state. Iverson, Hale, Jablonski were Minneapolis kids; I don't believe Passolt or Baer were on that team. Passolt showed up in Bantams from Wisconsin, and Baer was a few years younger than this group and I believe played for the Fire at the time.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:26 pm
by stonehands
It was squirt a, probably mistaken on passolt though.
Solid group nonetheless and I think of relevance to the topic.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:36 pm
by gloveside
Calling A the old B1 is a misnomer. The B1 teams that will be moving to A will be from associations that had two or more B1s or from associations that did not field an A previously. So some B1s will move up, but probably not most or all. I'm doubtful of the 40+ new A/AA teams some are saying.
Smaller and mid-size associations that had 2-5 teams in PW or Ban should stay the same. OGs Forest Lake is a good example of that. Yes, some of the B1 parents in these situations will be disappointed after tryouts but I bet they will be happy come February when the team has done well, won a tourney or two, and are ready to make noise in the playoffs. Lets not forget that success and confidence are an important part of skill development and building lifelong love for the game.
As for more waivers, this is unfortunate, but really unstoppable. If people want to get up and move the family just for association hockey we are not going to set up rules to stop them. I'd agree with the comment that some might want to move into smaller associations where there are plenty of opportunities and new people are happily welcomed.
BTW, does anyone know how many associations fielded B1 teams as their top team last year. It seems to me it was a relatively small group (10?).
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:44 pm
by goaliewithfoggedglasses
MrBoDangles wrote:I would bet a good number of kids get bumped in Edina from Squirts through Bantams from kids coming in.
No they don't. Does it happen? Sure, but it's infrequent. And I would say you better be in the top 5 - 7 if you're going to try it. Like all Associations Edina is political and the bubble spots aren't going to strangers.
Also the deadline for open enrolling into Edina schools was last January 15th. I would assume a lot of other districts are similiar. So I don't think there is a lot transferring going on because of AA/A, at least this year.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:40 pm
by MrBoDangles
goaliewithfoggedglasses wrote:MrBoDangles wrote:I would bet a good number of kids get bumped in Edina from Squirts through Bantams from kids coming in.
No they don't. Does it happen? Sure, but it's infrequent. And I would say you better be in the top 5 - 7 if you're going to try it. Like all Associations Edina is political and the bubble spots aren't going to strangers.
Also the deadline for open enrolling into Edina schools was last January 15th. I would assume a lot of other districts are similiar. So I don't think there is a lot transferring going on because of AA/A, at least this year.
Moving/Schooling
Three came in late PeeWees or as first year Bantams. One moved in as a Squirt. Three moved in as Advanced Mites. All seven(I might be missing more)played A Bantam for Edina a couple years ago. Check for yourself and you'll find many that arrive in their Mite years or later....... for Hockey!
Check the new sign ups
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:47 pm
by MNM JMH
Moving/Schooling
Three came in late PeeWees or as first year Bantams. One moved in as a Squirt. Three moved in as Advanced Mites. All seven(I might be missing more)played A Bantam for Edina a couple years ago. Check for yourself and you'll find many that arrive in their Mite years or later....... for Hockey!
Check the new sign ups
You really can't make this stuff up. Now where are you seeing "the new sign ups" .
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:57 pm
by MrBoDangles
MNM JMH wrote:Moving/Schooling
Three came in late PeeWees or as first year Bantams. One moved in as a Squirt. Three moved in as Advanced Mites. All seven(I might be missing more)played A Bantam for Edina a couple years ago. Check for yourself and you'll find many that arrive in their Mite years or later....... for Hockey!
Check the new sign ups
You really can't make this stuff up. Now where are you seeing "the new sign ups" .
Goaliewithfoggedglasses is a known Edina guy on here
So I'm sure he'll be able to hear about or check on the new sign ups..
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:53 pm
by MNM JMH
MrBoDangles wrote:MNM JMH wrote:Moving/Schooling
Three came in late PeeWees or as first year Bantams. One moved in as a Squirt. Three moved in as Advanced Mites. All seven(I might be missing more)played A Bantam for Edina a couple years ago. Check for yourself and you'll find many that arrive in their Mite years or later....... for Hockey!
Check the new sign ups
You really can't make this stuff up. Now where are you seeing "the new sign ups" .
Goaliewithfoggedglasses is a known Edina guy on here
So let me see if I get this right. Goaliewithfoggedglasses is a Edina parent that knows who has signed up to play Ass. Hockey for the past 4-7 yrs?
If true how many squirts this coming yr are transfers?
And I'm not an Ednia parent.
So I'm sure he'll be able to hear about or check on the new sign ups..
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:17 pm
by skipperj
MrBo, I don't understand your whole argument to this. You say that kids will move/transfer to bigger associations for better competition, but I say that already happens. Association such as your North Branch develope great hockey players.... the problem is that they never stay. They go to some private school or find the closest/best association available. That has been going on for many many years already. You won't know how this will play out until it plays out. Only time will tell if you are right or wrong, but I don't think you can tell just yet.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:36 am
by MrBoDangles
skipperj wrote:MrBo, I don't understand your whole argument to this. You say that kids will move/transfer to bigger associations for better competition, but I say that already happens. Association such as your North Branch develope great hockey players.... the problem is that they never stay. They go to some private school or find the closest/best association available. That has been going on for many many years already. You won't know how this will play out until it plays out. Only time will tell if you are right or wrong, but I don't think you can tell just yet.
The movement will go up as the number of associations that play at the highest level go down. Common sense should have told the Mn Hockey Board this.
This topic is about how this has been playing out.. There are a bunch of associations losing kids this year and it's not simply normal movement.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:14 am
by Deep Breath
Cripes; when does the summer season get started?
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:58 am
by spin-o-rama
MrBoDangles wrote: This topic is about how this has been playing out.. There are a bunch of associations losing kids this year and it's not simply normal movement.
Bo, me thinks you are jumping the gun with your "the sky is falling" stance. Where is your proof? For instance, you claim kids are flocking to Edina, yet the guy you identify as being knowledgeable of Edina says "what influx?" Registrations have barely started and you're calling the election?
I don't think we'll see any unusual movement. Sure there are those who move or play the transfer loophole game to get to a greener pasture. Will it be way more than the past? I don't think so, but I'm willing to see how it works out before claiming my hypothesis is fact.
Re: AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:08 pm
by MrBoDangles
Spin, I'll take you back to page one.
You should also know what is coming in being a guy(loved your spin move) from Ediner..
Re: AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:16 pm
by spin-o-rama
MrBoDangles wrote:
Spin, I'll take you back to page one.
I already called Tony on those claims. Thanks.