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Govs93 wrote:

packerboy wrote:Is Santana's value greater part way into the season?

My inclination is to say no, because if the Twins are out of the race and start shopping him, it'll reek of desperation and other teams will know that. It would truly be at the point of just getting something for him if it goes down mid-season.

The other thing I read is that Johan won't waive the no-trade clause during the season. If that's true, they'll really be stuck with him. It would make sense for him to do that though - play out you season season here, then hit the open market next season? Sheesh... he could be in for just a little less than A-Rod money if he does (barring injury) with the inflated pitcher salaries over the last few years.

Just as I say it, here's Buster Olney from the Winter Meetings:

"There are whispers that the Twins might decide to hold onto Johan Santana. With a healthy Francisco Liriano alongside him in the rotation, Minnesota would have a fearsome 1-2 punch. If the Twins do some big things in '08, they could find a way to re-sign Santana. If not, they could move him in July."

Govs93 wrote:

packerboy wrote:Is Santana's value greater part way into the season?

with the inflated pitcher salaries over the last few years.

A year ago Gil Meche (53-44 4.2 ERA) got 55 mil over 5 from KC.

What then is Carlos Silva (55-46 4.19 ERA) going to get in the next few weeks from somebody.

Where ever he goes the fans are going to annihilate him for the dough he will be making.

Maybe , the answer to my queston is ..."maybe".

If the Yankes are struggling in June because the pitching is inadequate or ...if the Red Sox start squirming everytime Schiling goes out there, or Becket breaks down, then... maybe , the price goes up for ole Johan.

Uh-oh...

12:30 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Tigers and Marlins have had preliminary talks about a blockbuster trade -- Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for a package of young players

...but Florida GM Larry Beinfest needs a lot more and doesn't think it's serious.

I guess the Angels are trying to make a bid for Santana now.

How strange would it be if Santana were traded for Hunter?

The Sox and Yankees are being cheap and if either really want Santana , stupid.

A pitcher of Santana's stature still in his prime doesnt become available very often.

Randy Johnson is maybe the last guy I can think of .

So the Yankes want to offer for Santana a little more than what the Twins got for Garza.

Sox, same way.

I hope Bill Smith hangs tough. I'd rather see him pitch here another year and go for draft choices than trade him for Melky and a prospect or even Moonlight Graham from the Sox.

packerboy wrote:The Sox and Yankees are being cheap and if either really want Santana , stupid.

A pitcher of Santana's stature still in his prime doesnt become available very often.

Randy Johnson is maybe the last guy I can think of .

So the Yankes want to offer for Santana a little more than what the Twins got for Garza.

Sox, same way.

I hope Bill Smith hangs tough. I'd rather see him pitch here another year and go for draft choices than trade him for Melky and a prospect or even Moonlight Graham from the Sox.

The Angels have stepped up their interest and are expected to meet with them. The Twins are believed to like Jared Weaver as part of the deal, but you’d think that power-hitting infield prospect Brandon Wood.

Govs93 wrote:Uh-oh...

12:30 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Tigers and Marlins have had preliminary talks about a blockbuster trade -- Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for a package of young players

ESPN reporting this is a done deal for Mayben, Miller and 4 others. Ruh-Roh.

Good luck Billy...

Neutron 14 wrote:

Govs93 wrote:Uh-oh...

12:30 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Tigers and Marlins have had preliminary talks about a blockbuster trade -- Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for a package of young players

ESPN reporting this is a done deal for Mayben, Miller and 4 others. Ruh-Roh.

Good luck Billy...

That is a genius move by the Tigers and bad news for the rest of the Central. Now they have Magglio, Sheffield, Granderson, Cabrera... yikes.

The bigger pickup will be Willis though. You get a dominant left in this division to go up against guys like Mauer, Morneau, Hafner, Thome... aye aye aye.

Detroit just vaulted into the driver's seat in the Central.

Govs93 wrote:

Neutron 14 wrote:

Govs93 wrote:Uh-oh...

12:30 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Tigers and Marlins have had preliminary talks about a blockbuster trade -- Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for a package of young players

ESPN reporting this is a done deal for Mayben, Miller and 4 others. Ruh-Roh.

Good luck Billy...

That is a genius move by the Tigers and bad news for the rest of the Central. Now they have Magglio, Sheffield, Granderson, Cabrera... yikes.

The bigger pickup will be Willis though. You get a dominant left in this division to go up against guys like Mauer, Morneau, Hafner, Thome... aye aye aye.

Detroit just vaulted into the driver's seat in the Central.

Vaulted to the driver's seat and taken over the radio.

The Tigers did what the Twins have refused to do. Trade some of the surplus of young talent for what the team needs to win to compliment a solid core of players.

I dont think Willis is all that big a deal. His last couple of season have been pretty average at best.

But this Cabrerra aint Melky.

Good job Tigers.

I really dont understand the reluctance to give up more for Santana than Melky Cabrera and one unproven pitcher.

Same goes for the Sox. Does Moonlight look like the real deal? Sure but he is unproven over the long haul and Lester, same way. But the Sox refuse to include them both.

I dont get it.

Sure, Sanatan may be a free agent after 08 and they can bid for him then but so can anybody else.

If I were the Sox GM and could get Santana, Id give up Lester and Ellsbury and think I got a good deal. And Id prove it by winning 3 or 4 more world series with Santana.

I cant imagine how many games Santana could win with that batting order behind him.

I want the Bobby Higginson and Robert Fick led Tigers back. What happended? This franchise was sleep walking for 15 years and now they are animals. What kind of epiphany did.....opps, better stop, I'm getting religious.

Irishmans Shanty wrote:I want the Bobby Higginson and Robert Fick led Tigers back. What happended? This franchise was sleep walking for 15 years and now they are animals. What kind of epiphany did.....opps, better stop, I'm getting religious.

They developed a good core of players that matured at the same time and now they are adding to that so they can win a title. They are "mortgaging the future " to do it but so what?

Who knows what the guys they gave the Marlins will do.

Will they be Willie Banks, David West and Restovich or Morneau, Liriano and Santana?

It doesnt matter and especially if they win a world series.

12:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• Don't expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.

If this is true, and it's situation where they're going to hold onto him to start the season (as opposed to just holding onto him through the Winter Meetings), I hope they start contract negotiations with him ASAP.

Again, if he starts the season here, I have to think they're going to be able to compete, which may end up being a curse in dealing with Johan. If they're competing for the division/wildcard, they can't trade him mid-season, and if they can't re-sign him, the town will be up in arms after the Torii situation. You can't just let him go for one draft pick, even if it is a 1st round - a 1st round pick in baseball is never a guarantee.

I hope Bill Smith knows what he's dealing with.

Would it be completely reckless to sign him and then see.

If you remove the leverage of him becoming available as a free agent next year, then will you get value for him in July if you decide to go that route?

Neither the Sox nor Yankees are offerring value, IMO.

Sign and trades are rare in baseball but his may be a good situation to do it.

packerboy wrote:Would it be completely reckless to sign him and then see.

Not sure what you think I was getting at here, but I'm saying if they don't deal deal him this winter, look to lock him up up and keep him here long term. I'm not suggesting signing him and then look for a trade.

I'm still of the opinion that you either do it now, or find a way to sign him. If he stays healthy during the first half of '08 (and presumably he will, it's never been a problem), in order for the Twins to even consider trading him, they'll have to be out of (or nearly) contention - for starters. If they are (and the team as it stands now, can contend IMHO), the league will then know full well that he won't be signed, and then the low ball offers start rolling in, because he's still going to be a free agent at the end of the year no matter how you slice it - whether it's with the Twins or not. Odds are, he'll be a rent-a-player from July thru the World Series wherever he is. To sign mid-season in a free agent year isn't likely.

No, you missed my point.

I am suggesting that they sign him now from '09 to whenever while still looking to trade him because they cant afford what they just agreed to.

Then, if the team is not contending in July , they can look to trade him but without being subject to the rent a player thing.

Or they can keep him for 2008 (remember, he is already signed for next season) and before the new contract kicks in, look to trade him if thats what they want to do.

He has said he won't waive his no-trade clause during the season. He wants to start somewhere, get comfortable and pitch his ass off for a big contract.

Only problem with your "theory" PB is the no-trade clauses and escalator clauses. I'm sure Johan's contract will be full of them with him being a GM and all. First you need to get him to say yes to the trade, but it probably ups his salary if he is traded which makes it unlikely someone will want to take him on and still give up decent value.

I'm with Govs on this one (wow, I just shocked myself there). If we don't trade him now (combined with the fact that I don't think we'll get much/don't think he'll agree to it mid-season), we need to seriously look at signing him long term. Who is the last great player the Twins have signed long term? Brad Radke? That's pathetic. You can't say Mauer because he wasn't going anywhere over the 4 year contract we gave him, he would have been arbitration eligible during that much like Morneau is. We seem to be a slightly higher spending version of the Marlins.

Speaking of the Marlins, their highest paid player next season looks to be newly acquired Andrew Miller (1.36 million) and if he doesn't make the MLB roster, then it is their closer (750k). I think it is pathetic that 4 years removed from a WS not only do they not have any players left over, but they don't even have a payroll of 10 million. At the same time I want to see what they can do with a payroll of that size, hell if they can win 40 games it is a huge success.

If the Twins trade Santana, They lose 13 mil in salary. They lost 12 mil when Hunter left.

The new math calculates out to a 25 milllion dollar savings.

They better do something with that money or thay can have the new ballpark all to themselves.

The Royals made a stunning selection in the Rule 5 draft today.

I understand he's a "Good fella" though. He's taking the whole "Shoeless" Joe thing a little too seriously if you ask me.


Anyway...

The Twins have signed Adam Everret. He is a very good top notch SS. One of the best in the bigs.

But guess what part of his game is weak?

Ill give you a hint. Punto might be better at it.

EREmpireStrikesBack wrote:Speaking of the Marlins, their highest paid player next season looks to be newly acquired Andrew Miller (1.36 million) and if he doesn't make the MLB roster, then it is their closer (750k). I think it is pathetic that 4 years removed from a WS not only do they not have any players left over, but they don't even have a payroll of 10 million. At the same time I want to see what they can do with a payroll of that size, hell if they can win 40 games it is a huge success.

Andrew Miller will def. be a top starter for them. Why wouldn't he make the MLB roster? Especially knowing the status of their team and payroll?

packerboy wrote:The Twins have signed Adam Everret. He is a very good top notch SS. One of the best in the bigs.

But guess what part of his game is weak?

Ill give you a hint. Punto might be better at it.

If he was a good top notch SS he'd certainly be getting more attention. I'm tired of these light hitting, meaningless signings. I guarantee he's playing for Baltimore or somebody around the All-Star break...