HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:12 am**

Shouldn't "telling" a player where to attend school the role of parents?

Ok Mr forum policeman I guess I should have said "suggest"

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:25 am**

Gems wrote:...open enrollment makes every school private period..

Not so fast.

Open enrollment is not a given option for every public school in the state.
In fact, fewer schools offer it, than don't.

It's also disingenuous to compare the average high school to many private schools, particularly the ones that are center stage in HS hockey.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:30 am**

Delusional is a good word for it. Sorry, but the high school hockey you are lamenting as lost started to disappear 44 years ago. Large suburban wealthy high schools with better facilities started dominating high school hockey with Edina's first Championship in 1969. The group of guys growing up together in a small town or city neighborhood and going on to win a state title ended long ago.

The thing is - it's still a great tournament. There were a half dozen fabulous high school hockey games at the Xcel the last 3 days including STA - Hermantown today. We should stop making such a big deal about how, where and why families choose to send their kids to high school. Fact is these teams are made up of high school students.[/quote]

I think most of the early Edina teams just had the numbers within their district to be successful. And that probably still could be true today. Since that 69 Edina team there have been groups of guys growing up together in small or city neighborhoods that have been successful at State Tournaments and won titles.
Your deluding yourself it you think this is about the kids. This is about coaches like the Vannelis, Paulys, Lecnors, Giles purely stroking their own egos. If it was about the kids they would be giving the kid within their district a chance instead recuriting Nationwide.
Most maybe too young here to remember just how great this tournament was 30 and 40 years ago with mostly (not all) homegrown talent.
You can just look at the demise of the H.S. Basketball Tournament. When I was growing up you had to wait 10-12 years to get a season ticket for that one class tournament. Look at it now. I think they'd probably let you in for free just so the vendors can sell a hot dog.
The future of H.S. hockey is going to be Junior Hockey(Regional Teams). They will be recruited from elite schools. Their already here with the latest having been added in Cloquet. When private schools started this and public schools followed with open enrollment it sealed the fate. But In the end whats the big deal about how, where and why families choose to send their kids to Play Hockey. Fact is these teams will be made up high school students. Oh well...

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:40 am**

basconi wrote:In the end whats the big deal about how, where and why families choose to send their kids to Play Hockey. Fact is these teams will be made up high school students. Oh well...

Personally, I don't believe high school students should be treated as commodities.
Frequently, you hear high school students speaking of relishing the opportunities to play with the buddies they came up through Squirts, Pee Wee's, Bantams, etc. with. That is obviously a much more special experience than being cast onto an all-star team for the sake of winning a trophy.

One high school student is not the same as any other. Some are long-standing friends, who have experienced much, together, and have bonds that just should not be tossed aside for a spot on the evening news.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:50 am**

WayOutWest wrote:
basconi wrote:In the end whats the big deal about how, where and why families choose to send their kids to Play Hockey. Fact is these teams will be made up high school students. Oh well...
Personally, I don't believe high school students should be treated as commodities.
Frequently, you hear high school students speaking of relishing the opportunities to play with the buddies they came up through Squirts, Pee Wee's, Bantams, etc. with. That is obviously a much more special experience than being cast onto an all-star team for the sake of winning a trophy.

One high school student is not the same as any other. Some are long-standing friends, who have experienced much, together, and have bonds that just should not be tossed aside for a spot on the evening news.

Even worse, it's their own parents that treat them as commodities.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:53 am**

Channel 247 has old episodes of Leave it to Beaver for you guys. Never mind you probably don't have cable.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:54 am**

stpaul wrote:Channel 247 has old episodes of Leave it to Beaver for you guys. Never mind you probably don't have cable.

Why wasted your money on cable when Dish is available?

Lee

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:56 am**

WayOutWest wrote:
basconi wrote:In the end whats the big deal about how, where and why families choose to send their kids to Play Hockey. Fact is these teams will be made up high school students. Oh well...
Actually I paraphrased an was mocking an earlier quote by I think Stpaul. But yes were on the same page about H.S. athletes being traded like pork bellies.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:57 am**

stpaul wrote:Channel 247 has old episodes of Leave it to Beaver for you guys. Never mind you probably don't have cable.

Already have all seasons on dvd, but thanks.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:57 am**

Mailman wrote:
stpaul wrote:Channel 247 has old episodes of Leave it to Beaver for you guys. Never mind you probably don't have cable.
Already have all seasons on dvd, but thanks.

Wanna trade for the Gilligan's Island series?

Lee

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am**

east hockey wrote:
Mailman wrote:
stpaul wrote:Channel 247 has old episodes of Leave it to Beaver for you guys. Never mind you probably don't have cable.
Already have all seasons on dvd, but thanks.
Wanna trade for the Gilligan's Island series?

Lee

What, ya think I wouldn't have those too ? Hell, I actually met Mary Ann once, lol !

Now, if ya got Rawhide, or Hogan's Heroes, maybe we can talk.....

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:08 am**

omg .... and I met the beaver

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:13 am**

I did like the episode when June asked Ward:

Weren't you a little hard on the beaver last night?

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:34 am**

thestickler07 wrote:
Ogie wrote:
rainier wrote: Hey sticky, great job by your team. I know you don't like to brag, so I will let everyone here know about your line of self-help books. Using the STA philosophy, you have created timeless works such as:

"The 7 Habits of Highly Successful Sandbaggers."
"Gold Rush: How to Fake a Disability and Become a Special Olympics Legend."
"It's Not My Fault Babies are so Weak: How to Never Pay for Candy Again."
"Trophy Chasing for Dummies."
"CadetStrong: How Challenging Yourself Leads to Weakness."
"The Art of the Opt Up: Never Risk Not Going to State Again."
"Moneypuck: How STA Flipped the Script in Class A Hockey."
"Shut Up, Conscience!: 10 Steps to Eliminating that Pesky Thing Called Morality."
"Lou Ninny: Exposing the Lies and Biases of a Minnesota Hockey 'Genius'."
"Eat, Pray, Sandbag: One Team's Rise to Class A Glory."
"I Was There First: How to Silence that Old Lady Asking for Your Seat on the Bus."
"50 Tricks to Make Your Empty Trophies Appear Full."

Quite a library, Sticky!

The ones who were really thrilled by the latest STA surprise title are the players and fans from Roseau, BSM, Grand Rapids, Holy Family, Cloquet, Bemidji, etc. These folks are now scrambling to write letters and make phone calls to their AD's and principles in hopes of getting back down to Class A. They see the respect and love STA gained by dominating A and they now realize the folly of aiming for the stars. I bet Ken Pauly is locked in his room weeping as Cinderella's "Don't know what you got til its gone" plays over and over. He and the other opt-uppers can't wait to pull back into the safe harbor that is Class A.

Walk with your head high, Stickbait.
This is surrealistically delusional, hateful and...and...and...words escape me...and words don't easily escape me.

You need help....Seriously.

He's not that crazy Ogie.

I'm gonna send signed copies of all my collective works to rainier so he has some off-season reading material.

I got a great line in one of my favorites by Francis Jeffrey Lord Jeffrey that you and your boy Plante might learn something from: "The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom of little souls and inferior intellects."

I'll give you that nugget for free, thinking about that should hold you over until the UPS guy gets there with the rest of em.

I love how your only response to the people who rip on STA for staying in A so long is that they are "whiners". You present no rationale for them staying in A for 5 titles in 8 years because you are defending the indefensible. Thus, all you can do is name-call.

Were the people calling for PED testing of guys like Bonds and McGwire "whiners" also?

Some "whiners" caught the New England Patriots filming other teams' practices, and the Patriots haven't won a title since. We'll see how well STA does in AA now. I'm guessing they won't win 5 titles in the next 8 years, if any. You may want to hold off on building that new trophy case, as you are about to find out the difference between A and AA.

But if that trophy case has already been built and its emptiness bothers you, well, just opt back on down to A and fill 'er up.

It will be fun to watch STA play Edina, Wayzata, Duluth East, Hill-Murray, etc. at state (If the Cadets even make it there). They will be playing teams that draw from AA populations just as STA does and that's when the reality of sandbagging will become clear to them. There will be no more 12-0 or 11-0 blowouts of teams from towns of 6,000 people. All four higher seeds lost in the AA tourney last season, something that will never happen in A, even if Breck and Hermantown opt up. You wanted to become a player in the world of HS hockey and now it's time for the other shoe to drop.

Instead of a trophy every season, STA may very well learn what it's like to be Moorhead and have great teams year after year but yet the parity in AA has kept them at 0-7 in title games. Or even a Hill-Murray, who has an impressive three titles, but has had to swallow second place 8 times. Jefferson won the AA title 3 years in a row, which is widely considered the best run in tourney history. STA of the last few years couldn't carry that team's jocks, and no one is impressed by their A "dynasty". You better slow down, there is a steep learning curve ahead.

The irony is that STA's best chances at an AA title might have been the last couple years, but they wasted them because they were too busy getting fat at the Easy Street Buffet in Class A.

To Ogie: You? At a loss for words? You are a regular Tolstoy, I can't believe you wouldn't have something constructive to add. And the words you are looking for are "creative" and "devastatingly accurate".

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:41 am**

Absent a redistribution of wealth I think we are stuck with the Privates and the Publics attracting top players. Probably better off spending time figuring out how to compete financially with the rich and privileged than complaining about it. Get Donald Trump to build a new rink in Indus and hire moms and dads for big bucks with top kids from Canada, Europe and the U.S. to compete against and beat the STA's, Hills, and Edina's. Might be fun to see Indus in the Tourney but then we'd have everyone screaming that Indus is playing unfair and hating them too. Life just aint fair.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:52 am**

Rainier maybe you ARE crazy. How can you call Duluth an AA population? The metro is bigger than the Duluth area is it not?

Your hero McGuire broke rules. Your boys in New England broke rules. Let the MSHSL know of infractions by STAA and I'll be your biggest cheerleader in your never ending pity party.

That actually might be a good purpose for you. Be that legendary whistle blower that takes down STAA's hockey program once and for all! You are obsessed enough with the program as it is that it would probably be a good use of your time.

Oh and please refer to the once and future champions by their rightful names now, its STAA.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:05 pm**

Life just aint fair.

There you go again reminding us to just accept the inequities because "life isn't fair". But when asked to have your own section or tournament you all scream "THAT WOULDN'T BE FAIR"

Typical privileged, "my s**t don't stink, self important snobs. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:11 pm**

Here's a lesson the privates should inherit on whats best for Mn H.S. hockey.

"Mariucci became the head coach of the Minnesota Golden Gophers hockey team. He was noted for not attempting to sign Canadian players for his hockey teams, but instead relying on home-grown talent from Minnesota. This helped to grow youth and high school hockey programs in the state of Minnesota.

Mariucci, a colorful individual who with his remarks and views was a newspaperman's dream, decided to recruit American players for his Minnesota teams. With few exceptions the players on its teams during his 13-year stay were natives of Minnesota. At times he found the going difficult as his opponents often iced teams with mostly Canadians on their rosters. Often these Canadian players were over-age juniors, two or three years older than the Minnesota players and with many more games of experience under their belts. In March of 1958 the WIHL dissolved over charges of recruitment of over age Canadian players. There was no league play in the 1958-1959 season, but after the bad feelings had subsided the seven teams regrouped to form the newly named WCHA for the 1959-1960 season."

Imagine that ... a coach who was actually interested in what was best for the Mn H.S hockey players rather then his own ego and bragging rites.

And Bruce Plant who told nine parents to stay with their home teams. Class....

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:40 pm**

thorhockey wrote:
Life just aint fair.
There you go again reminding us to just accept the inequities because "life isn't fair". But when asked to have your own section or tournament you all scream "THAT WOULDN'T BE FAIR"

Typical privileged, "my s**t don't stink, self important snobs. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Why not set an equal standard for everyone? You hate private schools because they aren't fair and want to attempt to create more unfairness by putting them in your own section? Your claim that privates should all be in the same section is demeaning to private school kids because you're saying that because they are privlaged or have more opportunities that they are less and should be given less opportunities.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:50 pm**

It continues to amaze me the things people with no first hand experience at/about private schools repeat over and over somehow making them true. Handfuls of people who have been students, parents or other community members in private communities have posted different experiences of theirs over these pages and the response to them is simply "you're wrong." Not really sure why people prefer to believe the propaganda instead of the people with experience.

Don't get me wrong, my comment has nothing to do with class. I wanted St Thomas in AA two years ago, have repeated multiple times that I think Lourdes and Marshall should've opted up and I think Breck likely should as well. I don't think it's necessary, but a solid case could be made for Totino and Cathedral as well. My guess is that in 2 or 4 years there will be another school or two not listed here who should be up, public or private.

There are simply so many factually incorrect private school statements being made that don't take this conversation forward at all. Few of the things said about private schools don't also apply to public schools. With the OE and transfer rules how they are now, I still haven't been given a response as to why "private schools" have this so called advantage discussed. Every school has a disadvantage of some sort, I simply see specific private schools responding to those with better results.

If you were unhappy with your home school, I don't understand why it is an advantage to pay $10k-$20 to drive your child across the metro instead of bringing him over to the next town over, or as Plante says, to stay where you're at and work on fixing what you don't like. That seems like a clear disadvantage to me. This term "advantage" gets through around; what is advantageous about having academic standards, having a price tag and being a far distance from where most live?

Awil95 wrote:
WB6162 wrote:One last A tourney for STA to bastardize. Now lets hope that Breck steps up and goes AA.
Why so hermantown can win without a doubt . Breck won third place it looks like breck may be the only. Team out there who could put a scare in hermantowns step. People are forgetting that Hermantown has been on the state title game 4 times in a row and if that's not trophy chasing I don't know what is . The only difference is they have lost and sta has won . Some people don't also realize that some kids go to private schools and get this actually pay their own tuition and go there not because there recruited but because there school system sucks where they would go to high school.
To me it's a double standard that no one is seeing because they hate private schools .what if sta lost all three years and hermantown won all three years would be bashing them for trophy chasing ? NO because thy arnt private .

People can repeat it all they want, but repeating that athletic scholarships are available doesn't make it so. The vast majority of scholarships handed out are need based, that are available equally to all students. The remaining scholarships handed out are academic based, and are a small fraction of the total dollar amount, like a small fraction of tuition forgiven for a good score on the entrance exam. Athletic scholarships do not exist.

I agree about Hermantown. It is a complete double standard.
Still don't understand why why your program is good and successful matters.

WB6162 wrote:The Class A was DESIGNED for small schools and mostly small towns. STA is not a town. They are loaded with players who grew up in associations like Woodbury and Stillwater and others playing against AA players.

Your first sentence is great, then you contradict yourself in the conclusions you are trying to make. If the system wasn't designed for private schools to be in Class A, why were they allowed there when it was designed?

Most private schools weren't as good as they are now when the split happened. Many of them were part of the group of "small schools who can't compete with the big schools" at the time. The difference is that a handful of them have turned their failures around. When a small, community school does it, it is applauded, but when a small, private school does it, they are ridiculed.

Ultimately, if that was what the vast majority of the public schools coaches wanted, it is what would happen. My guess is that coaches understand the realistic results of what many keep claiming they want.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:07 pm**

thestickler07 wrote:Rainier maybe you ARE crazy. How can you call Duluth an AA population? Because it has a metro population of 150,000, an AA school, one of the largest A schools, and a private school. Is this not obvious, or have you been hitting the peach schnapps too hard again? The metro is bigger than the Duluth area is it not? Man, you're good.

Your hero McGuire broke rules. MLB had no steroid rule until 2005. Your boys in New England broke rules. Let the MSHSL know of infractions by STAA and I'll be your biggest cheerleader in your never ending pity party. Once again, there is no reason to give an old lady your seat on the bus because there isn't a "rule" that says you need to. Who needs ethics or morals? Brilliant.

That actually might be a good purpose for you. Be that legendary whistle blower that takes down STAA's hockey program once and for all! You are obsessed enough with the program as it is that it would probably be a good use of your time. No, I'm not obsessed with the program, I'm obsessed with shining a light on people like you, the tiny fraction of STA alumni dimwitted enough to defend their long stay in A publicly. The 45 TV guys are paid to complement STA while keeping a straight face, but everyone else knows what a sham it has been. Lou Nanne, who has the freedom to say what he wants, made no bones about this last year. I always figured students from such an expensive private school must be smart, and the fact that so few of them defend STA shows I'm right, but, as always, there are a few vocal, angry exceptions.

Oh and please refer to the once and future champions by their rightful names now, its STAA. Future champions? On that we will have to wait and see. Hill-Murray has 3 titles in 39 years of playing at the highest level of HS hockey. Duluth East has 3, one of which was from 1960. You're not in the little pond anymore, the AA teams STA has been playing during the regular season will now be there during the playoffs, no more fleeing to the safety of the small school tournament. Good luck, you're gonna need it.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:11 pm**

Thor- I'm with you on this one buddy. Not telling you to accept the problem you're faced with at all. You just need to either; (1) get our Government to redistribute the wealth; (2) place a cap on spending for ice time and training; (3) don't allow people to move for any reason; (4) kick all privates and communities with a per capita income over X amount out; or (5) go study the Warroad's of the past, Edina's & Hill's of the past and present; and the STA's and BSM's of the present. Call it recruitment or a desire to play for great programs, but it's a fact of life. Don't need to accept it but you do need to do something to change it.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:41 pm**

rainier wrote:Because it has a metro population of 150,000, an AA school, one of the largest A schools, and a private school.

Well census date puts the Duluth MSA at closer to 280,000 but let's not let the facts get in the way of a good narrative right?

By the way, can we stop the charade of calling Hermantown a "small town"? Its a wealthy suburb of Duluth. Median family incomes are $10,000 higher in Hermantown than in Duluth proper. I wouldn't call Orono a "small town" even though its population is lower than Hermantown's.

rainier wrote:No, I'm not obsessed with the program, I'm obsessed with shining a light on people like you, the tiny fraction of STA alumni dimwitted enough to defend their long stay in A publicly. The 45 TV guys are paid to complement STA while keeping a straight face, but everyone else knows what a sham it has been. Lou Nanne, who has the freedom to say what he wants, made no bones about this last year. I always figured students from such an expensive private school must be smart, and the fact that so few of them defend STA shows I'm right, but, as always, there are a few vocal, angry exceptions.

You are obsessed, period. Reread what you just wrote and tell me its anything different than what you've been saying the last 20+ pages of this thread. You have been repeating the same thing over and over, its pathetic.

And come on, its STAA, get it right.

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:58 pm**

We can discuss endlessly the advantages that are perceived regarding privates. No end to the discussion until the MSHSL realizes that it will be to their advantage to create a separate prep school league. This will enhance the tournament and more importantly add value to those wanting to play in arguably the best HS tournament of any sport in the world. Imagine if the tourney was only for public schools. I am willing to bet that the number of kids opting to leave their public HS for a private would diminish greatly, leaving those that do, truly for the academic reasons instead of a chance to suck on the teat of endowments for a better hockey experience. There is a reason Nationals aren't broadcast here in the land of hockey folks. Think about it. Private. Public. Two much different meanings, two much different experiences, two much different opportunities...

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:59 pm**

We can discuss endlessly the advantages that are perceived regarding privates. No end to the discussion until the MSHSL realizes that it will be to their advantage to create a separate prep school league. This will enhance the tournament and more importantly add value to those wanting to play in arguably the best HS tournament of any sport in the world. Imagine if the tourney was only for public schools. I am willing to bet that the number of kids opting to leave their public HS for a private would diminish greatly, leaving those that do, truly for the academic reasons instead of a chance to suck on the teat of endowments for a better hockey experience. There is a reason Nationals aren't broadcast here in the land of hockey folks. Think about it. Private. Public. Two much different meanings, two much different experiences, two much different opportunities...

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