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Houndhockey wrote:As Karl noted, East vs Denfeld is a mandatory thing yearly by the school board. I guess I could give up Superior too. That would make room for one of the teams. But, I still would say they aren't exactly concerned with playing ALL the LSC teams. They already play Cloquet twice annually because of being in the same section. They play Denfeld as noted and Superior, it's really just Marshall, Htown, and Proctor they aren't playing.
Honestly, like I said in my earlier post, I wouldn't mind them playing those two, but I would still rather they be independent, giving them the freedom to schedule whoever on a yearly basis as it has been.

I won't argue with anything you or karl has said. You both got the thread back on topic and are giving good first hand info. I also will say that while some specific games could easily be taken off their schedule, they really don't have an easy schedule and you don't know anything about the relationships they have with the coaches/ADs of those schools.

Additionally, I know all too well about being in a conference and being personally disliked by other schools. Those are games that you don't want to play.

All that being said, I still have a hard time not looking at this from a simple view of both $ and talent. Why would you schedule a random 1AA, 3AA, or 4AA school for a home/away trip who you will only end up playing at state pending multiple upsets and random luck when you could instead schedule a team less than 10 miles away where you would attract thousands of fans from many parts of MN?

From any perspective, travel, competitiveness, revenue, kids out on a school night, etc, etc, it's hard to argue against these games.

Even though Cretin absolutely crushed St Thomas the last couple times they played football, they had 8,000 fans in attendance at STA one year, UST was packed the following year and we haven't played since. Football scheduling is different than hockey, but not playing the game is silly. Same is true here.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

Houndhockey wrote:As Karl noted, East vs Denfeld is a mandatory thing yearly by the school board. I guess I could give up Superior too. That would make room for one of the teams. But, I still would say they aren't exactly concerned with playing ALL the LSC teams. They already play Cloquet twice annually because of being in the same section. They play Denfeld as noted and Superior, it's really just Marshall, Htown, and Proctor they aren't playing.
Honestly, like I said in my earlier post, I wouldn't mind them playing those two, but I would still rather they be independent, giving them the freedom to schedule whoever on a yearly basis as it has been.

I won't argue with anything you or karl has said. You both got the thread back on topic and are giving good first hand info. I also will say that while some specific games could easily be taken off their schedule, they really don't have an easy schedule and you don't know anything about the relationships they have with the coaches/ADs of those schools.

Additionally, I know all too well about being in a conference and being personally disliked by other schools. Those are games that you don't want to play.

All that being said, I still have a hard time not looking at this from a simple view of both $ and talent. Why would you schedule a random 1AA, 3AA, or 4AA school for a home/away trip who you will only end up playing at state pending multiple upsets and random luck when you could instead schedule a team less than 10 miles away where you would attract thousands of fans from many parts of MN?

From any perspective, travel, competitiveness, revenue, kids out on a school night, etc, etc, it's hard to argue against these games.

Even though Cretin absolutely crushed St Thomas the last couple times they played football, they had 8,000 fans in attendance at STA one year, UST was packed the following year and we haven't played since. Football scheduling is different than hockey, but not playing the game is silly. Same is true here.

Great Summary HS. Any Educated person who reads this 4 page thread will probably come to the same conclusion that there are no logical, hockey reasons for not playing these games. NONE. That is why we have to speculate as to why they're not being played. Karl and Hounds posts, while very well written and offering some good insight to the thoughts of East fans, do nothing to dispel the speculation. East doesn't care about who the best team in the area is? They don't care about the LSC??? Yet, they choose to play two local A teams that offer them no competition, have exact opposite demographics, (hence, nobody would ever choose the program over theirs,) because they support their re-entry into the LSC???? I'm not sure that passes the smell test. They only care about winning State? How does getting your kids home at midnight on a school night after driving 5 hours to play Centennial or STMA further that cause any more than playing two teams that are arguably just as good right in your backyard, while promoting the heck out of High School Hockey in the area at the same time? The Section 7AA finals should be played at Amsoil every year because it's a great venue and it's great for Duluth and the fans??? Well, these games would be even better for the fans than watching Elk River, Andover or Forest Lake. These are three great programs within a few miles of each other. Where else in the State does this exist and the teams don't play? These would be great games for Duluth and the fans of hockey in the area. We all want to see them played, yet they aren't. I realize I might be beating a dead horse here guys, but this is a subject that I care a lot about as a Hockey fan in the area. These three games would arguably be the biggest regular season High School Hockey events in the history of Duluth because of where these three programs are currently at. Again, no logical reason not to play them.

Froggy Richards wrote:Great Summary HS. Any Educated person who reads this 4 page thread will probably come to the same conclusion that there are no logical, hockey reasons for not playing these games. NONE. That is why we have to speculate as to why they're not being played. Karl and Hounds posts, while very well written and offering some good insight to the thoughts of East fans, do nothing to dispel the speculation. East doesn't care about who the best team in the area is? They don't care about the LSC??? Yet, they choose to play two local A teams that offer them no competition, have exact opposite demographics, (hence, nobody would ever choose the program over theirs,) because they support their re-entry into the LSC???? I'm not sure that passes the smell test. They only care about winning State? How does getting your kids home at midnight on a school night after driving 5 hours to play Centennial or STMA further that cause any more than playing two teams that are arguably just as good right in your backyard, while promoting the heck out of High School Hockey in the area at the same time? The Section 7AA finals should be played at Amsoil every year because it's a great venue and it's great for Duluth and the fans??? Well, these games would be even better for the fans than watching Elk River, Andover or Forest Lake. These are three great programs within a few miles of each other. Where else in the State does this exist and the teams don't play? These would be great games for Duluth and the fans of hockey in the area. We all want to see them played, yet they aren't. I realize I might be beating a dead horse here guys, but this is a subject that I care a lot about as a Hockey fan in the area. These three games would arguably be the biggest regular season High School Hockey events in the history of Duluth because of where these three programs are currently at. Again, no logical reason not to play them.

I'm trying to figure out what kind of a response you want. I don't know why Duluth East doesn't play Hermantown or Duluth Marshall. From your posts I assume you don't know either. Some people who seem to be somewhat in the know point out that it's in relation to being kicked out of the LSC. You don't like that answer. Is there a reason that you would be happy with? I can try to make one up for you. How about this:

Duluth East doesn't want to play Hermantown or Duluth Marshall because they want as many kids as possible in the area to go to Duluth East and feel that if they play and lose to Hermantown and Duluth Marshall the kids will choose to either open enroll at Hermantown or go to school at Duluth Marshall.

Froggy Richards wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:

Houndhockey wrote:As Karl noted, East vs Denfeld is a mandatory thing yearly by the school board. I guess I could give up Superior too. That would make room for one of the teams. But, I still would say they aren't exactly concerned with playing ALL the LSC teams. They already play Cloquet twice annually because of being in the same section. They play Denfeld as noted and Superior, it's really just Marshall, Htown, and Proctor they aren't playing.
Honestly, like I said in my earlier post, I wouldn't mind them playing those two, but I would still rather they be independent, giving them the freedom to schedule whoever on a yearly basis as it has been.

I won't argue with anything you or karl has said. You both got the thread back on topic and are giving good first hand info. I also will say that while some specific games could easily be taken off their schedule, they really don't have an easy schedule and you don't know anything about the relationships they have with the coaches/ADs of those schools.

Additionally, I know all too well about being in a conference and being personally disliked by other schools. Those are games that you don't want to play.

All that being said, I still have a hard time not looking at this from a simple view of both $ and talent. Why would you schedule a random 1AA, 3AA, or 4AA school for a home/away trip who you will only end up playing at state pending multiple upsets and random luck when you could instead schedule a team less than 10 miles away where you would attract thousands of fans from many parts of MN?

From any perspective, travel, competitiveness, revenue, kids out on a school night, etc, etc, it's hard to argue against these games.

Even though Cretin absolutely crushed St Thomas the last couple times they played football, they had 8,000 fans in attendance at STA one year, UST was packed the following year and we haven't played since. Football scheduling is different than hockey, but not playing the game is silly. Same is true here.

Great Summary HS. Any Educated person who reads this 4 page thread will probably come to the same conclusion that there are no logical, hockey reasons for not playing these games. NONE. That is why we have to speculate as to why they're not being played. Karl and Hounds posts, while very well written and offering some good insight to the thoughts of East fans, do nothing to dispel the speculation. East doesn't care about who the best team in the area is? They don't care about the LSC??? Yet, they choose to play two local A teams that offer them no competition, have exact opposite demographics, (hence, nobody would ever choose the program over theirs,) because they support their re-entry into the LSC???? I'm not sure that passes the smell test. They only care about winning State? How does getting your kids home at midnight on a school night after driving 5 hours to play Centennial or STMA further that cause any more than playing two teams that are arguably just as good right in your backyard, while promoting the heck out of High School Hockey in the area at the same time? The Section 7AA finals should be played at Amsoil every year because it's a great venue and it's great for Duluth and the fans??? Well, these games would be even better for the fans than watching Elk River, Andover or Forest Lake. These are three great programs within a few miles of each other. Where else in the State does this exist and the teams don't play? These would be great games for Duluth and the fans of hockey in the area. We all want to see them played, yet they aren't. I realize I might be beating a dead horse here guys, but this is a subject that I care a lot about as a Hockey fan in the area. These three games would arguably be the biggest regular season High School Hockey events in the history of Duluth because of where these three programs are currently at. Again, no logical reason not to play them.

Froggy & HSHW actually nail it.

Traxler wrote:

Froggy Richards wrote:Great Summary HS. Any Educated person who reads this 4 page thread will probably come to the same conclusion that there are no logical, hockey reasons for not playing these games. NONE. That is why we have to speculate as to why they're not being played. Karl and Hounds posts, while very well written and offering some good insight to the thoughts of East fans, do nothing to dispel the speculation. East doesn't care about who the best team in the area is? They don't care about the LSC??? Yet, they choose to play two local A teams that offer them no competition, have exact opposite demographics, (hence, nobody would ever choose the program over theirs,) because they support their re-entry into the LSC???? I'm not sure that passes the smell test. They only care about winning State? How does getting your kids home at midnight on a school night after driving 5 hours to play Centennial or STMA further that cause any more than playing two teams that are arguably just as good right in your backyard, while promoting the heck out of High School Hockey in the area at the same time? The Section 7AA finals should be played at Amsoil every year because it's a great venue and it's great for Duluth and the fans??? Well, these games would be even better for the fans than watching Elk River, Andover or Forest Lake. These are three great programs within a few miles of each other. Where else in the State does this exist and the teams don't play? These would be great games for Duluth and the fans of hockey in the area. We all want to see them played, yet they aren't. I realize I might be beating a dead horse here guys, but this is a subject that I care a lot about as a Hockey fan in the area. These three games would arguably be the biggest regular season High School Hockey events in the history of Duluth because of where these three programs are currently at. Again, no logical reason not to play them.

I'm trying to figure out what kind of a response you want. I don't know why Duluth East doesn't play Hermantown or Duluth Marshall. From your posts I assume you don't know either. Some people who seem to be somewhat in the know point out that it's in relation to being kicked out of the LSC. You don't like that answer. Is there a reason that you would be happy with? I can try to make one up for you. How about this:

Duluth East doesn't want to play Hermantown or Duluth Marshall because they want as many kids as possible in the area to go to Duluth East and feel that if they play and lose to Hermantown and Duluth Marshall the kids will choose to either open enroll at Hermantown or go to school at Duluth Marshall.

This. The reasons are there, you just don't like them. East doesn't schedule ANY private schools to play, they haven't for awhile (unless its a tournament, which they do not control the teams or draw). They used to schedule Hill-Murray, they don't anymore because they are private. Why would they start scheduling Marshall now if their philosophy is to not schedule privates? To make you happy? It's called self-preservation. They could careless about what Hermantown, Duluth Marshall, or even Cloquet or Rapids wants. Fans are the absolute LEAST of their worries. They are going to do what they deem best for Duluth East.

Froggy Richards wrote: Where else in the State does this exist and the teams don't play?

The only two remotely comparable cases would be Rochester and St. Cloud...in the Metro area everyone is so close together and most of the conferences are so big that this it doesn't really matter that Edina and Wayzata don't play Breck.

Class A Rochester Lourdes does not play AA Century, Mayo, or JM. Class AA St. Cloud Tech does not play Class A Cathedral. This isn't unique.

As for the LSC thing, it's important to realize that there are several people who play into the making of a schedule--it's not just Mike Randolph calling up whoever he wants. The AD's office cares far more about being in the LSC than Randolph does, and it has some influence.

I agree that there are no "logical, hockey reasons" for not playing these games, but, well...I could spend all day listing things about hockey that are not decided by "logical, hockey reasons." It's unfortunate that the back-room stuff affects things, but it's no use pretending as if it doesn't. I'm just trying to dispel the notion that this is all some evil East plot to keep themselves atop the local hockey scene.

karl(east) wrote:I'm just trying to dispel the notion that this is all some evil East plot to keep themselves atop the local hockey scene.

From what I've been able to gather after reading through all the posts, I've come to the conclusion that you're right that it's not some evil plot but I would disagree that one of the prime motivators behind their scheduling IS to keep themselves atop of the local hockey scene.

Bum reminded me to stay focused in another string but it got me thinking about seeing this one so I raise the question here. It may not be as big of advantage as playing the section 7AA final at Amsoil - only kidding. Wait focus that's a different topic. It seems playing an independent schedule can be beneficial for a team building towards March compared to being locked into 20 conference games which includes a number of clunkers. Since East/Hermantown/Marshall games would make sense to outsiders given relative strength of the programs and proximity of the schools but various political reasons (aka excuses) are preventing this, why hasn't the MSHSL ever stepped in and placed East back in the LSC? Maybe MSHSL stands for Metro Schools Hockey Standardization Legislation and you guys up in Gods country don't need to deal with as much intervention and bureaucracy?

Kind of off topic but was it announced BSM got placed (aka forced) into a conference for hockey next year? Thanks for sharing the wisdom and best of luck to your teams next week.

Maybe East is doing what Moorhead has been doin ( not thatEast is ffollowing Moorhead). Moorhead years ago quit scheduling a lot of the local games in favor of a bigger, more statewide schedule. Kind of elevate the stature of the program as well as and probably more importantly readying the troops for the state tournament battle. Playing the type of teams who have ended your state championship hopes in the past would seem logical to do in the regular season as a way to prep for State.
That said, I think local get are great for hockey, for everyone involved. Creates rivalries and excitement to the local scene, while forcing each team to keep up with eachother.

They should just abolish the conferences. What good do conferences really do?

EHSHack wrote:They should just abolish the conferences. What good do conferences really do?

a) more banners to hang for winning teams
b) less workload for AD's when filling out schedules
c) more mismatches = more points for Mr. Hockey candidates

MNHockeyFan wrote:

EHSHack wrote:They should just abolish the conferences. What good do conferences really do?

a) more banners to hang for winning teams
b) less workload for AD's when filling out schedules
c) more mismatches = more points for Mr. Hockey candidates

There is a delicious cynicism in your response. And I agree with all of it.

Lee

pekyman wrote:

Froggy Richards wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote: I won't argue with anything you or karl has said. You both got the thread back on topic and are giving good first hand info. I also will say that while some specific games could easily be taken off their schedule, they really don't have an easy schedule and you don't know anything about the relationships they have with the coaches/ADs of those schools.

Additionally, I know all too well about being in a conference and being personally disliked by other schools. Those are games that you don't want to play.

All that being said, I still have a hard time not looking at this from a simple view of both $ and talent. Why would you schedule a random 1AA, 3AA, or 4AA school for a home/away trip who you will only end up playing at state pending multiple upsets and random luck when you could instead schedule a team less than 10 miles away where you would attract thousands of fans from many parts of MN?

From any perspective, travel, competitiveness, revenue, kids out on a school night, etc, etc, it's hard to argue against these games.

Even though Cretin absolutely crushed St Thomas the last couple times they played football, they had 8,000 fans in attendance at STA one year, UST was packed the following year and we haven't played since. Football scheduling is different than hockey, but not playing the game is silly. Same is true here.

Great Summary HS. Any Educated person who reads this 4 page thread will probably come to the same conclusion that there are no logical, hockey reasons for not playing these games. NONE. That is why we have to speculate as to why they're not being played. Karl and Hounds posts, while very well written and offering some good insight to the thoughts of East fans, do nothing to dispel the speculation. East doesn't care about who the best team in the area is? They don't care about the LSC??? Yet, they choose to play two local A teams that offer them no competition, have exact opposite demographics, (hence, nobody would ever choose the program over theirs,) because they support their re-entry into the LSC???? I'm not sure that passes the smell test. They only care about winning State? How does getting your kids home at midnight on a school night after driving 5 hours to play Centennial or STMA further that cause any more than playing two teams that are arguably just as good right in your backyard, while promoting the heck out of High School Hockey in the area at the same time? The Section 7AA finals should be played at Amsoil every year because it's a great venue and it's great for Duluth and the fans??? Well, these games would be even better for the fans than watching Elk River, Andover or Forest Lake. These are three great programs within a few miles of each other. Where else in the State does this exist and the teams don't play? These would be great games for Duluth and the fans of hockey in the area. We all want to see them played, yet they aren't. I realize I might be beating a dead horse here guys, but this is a subject that I care a lot about as a Hockey fan in the area. These three games would arguably be the biggest regular season High School Hockey events in the history of Duluth because of where these three programs are currently at. Again, no logical reason not to play them.

Froggy & HSHW actually nail it.

I think most people are kidding themselves if they think a game like this is going to be this huge awakening to the local hockey scene? The attendance at High School Hockey games are not what they used to be, and they are certainly no where near the days of Duluth Cathedral. Amsoil arena didn't even make the upper bowl available for either section final? Why do we think that an insignificant game in December or January is going to draw any more than that?

In a few years we'll get to see Hermantown and East play when Hermantown is playing AA hockey. It is just going to be inevitable that they move up. Might not be until Bruce retires but that isn't that far off. Side note: I believe Hermantown has a pretty good stream of kids from Duluth Heights and Piedmont Heights coming in, and now I hear they are getting a couple of kids from Hibbing as well. Looks like they might be getting more then 55811 kids.

As far as Marshall. I think you will see that program start to be at the bottom of the LSC again here pretty soon. Randolph has done a pretty good job of getting the top hockey players right out of squirts and so there is less and less kids heading up the hill. The Denfeld program is dying a slow and painful death right now too, so the kids that are going to Marshall in 4th-8th grade don't appear to be hockey players. At least if you go by the A/AA teams at PW & Bantams in Duluth. In addition, now that Hermantown is in section 7 and Marshall will have a hard time beating them the next few years to get to state. With out that carrot to dangle kids are going to ask what local school is going to give me the best chance at getting to St. Paul. Anyone who doesn't think that factors in are living with their head in the sand. There may be some people that don't factor hockey into choosing a school but I promise you there are plenty that do. Not to mention, there doesn't seem to be the parent group there actively trying to persuade players at the youth levels to play at Marshall. The run they have been on since early 00's can be attributed to that and I think that is gone. Finally, Marshall's tuition is projected to be 20K a year in the next couple years. According to this board only people in Hermantown will be able to afford that and we all know no one leaves H-town.

If the choice were mine I wouldn't play Marshall or Hermantown either. I wouldn't play them for the original reasons that were listed on the first post. I would be more open to play Hermantown then Marshall simply because I wouldn't have to directly compete with them for players. To say that an East loss to Marshall wouldn't be used to recruit (for lack of a better word) kids up the hill is ludicrous. I remember hearing East people say to Marshall people after their 3rd straight final loss, "I guess if you are ok with 2nd Marshall is a good option, but if you want to be a champion you'll come to East." haha. Yes, I actually heard that. My point is, this is not an unrealistic reason.

With all this being said, Karl nailed it in his post. He spoke the truth and like it or not he was 100% correct.

wannagototherink wrote:

pekyman wrote:

Froggy Richards wrote: Great Summary HS. Any Educated person who reads this 4 page thread will probably come to the same conclusion that there are no logical, hockey reasons for not playing these games. NONE. That is why we have to speculate as to why they're not being played. Karl and Hounds posts, while very well written and offering some good insight to the thoughts of East fans, do nothing to dispel the speculation. East doesn't care about who the best team in the area is? They don't care about the LSC??? Yet, they choose to play two local A teams that offer them no competition, have exact opposite demographics, (hence, nobody would ever choose the program over theirs,) because they support their re-entry into the LSC???? I'm not sure that passes the smell test. They only care about winning State? How does getting your kids home at midnight on a school night after driving 5 hours to play Centennial or STMA further that cause any more than playing two teams that are arguably just as good right in your backyard, while promoting the heck out of High School Hockey in the area at the same time? The Section 7AA finals should be played at Amsoil every year because it's a great venue and it's great for Duluth and the fans??? Well, these games would be even better for the fans than watching Elk River, Andover or Forest Lake. These are three great programs within a few miles of each other. Where else in the State does this exist and the teams don't play? These would be great games for Duluth and the fans of hockey in the area. We all want to see them played, yet they aren't. I realize I might be beating a dead horse here guys, but this is a subject that I care a lot about as a Hockey fan in the area. These three games would arguably be the biggest regular season High School Hockey events in the history of Duluth because of where these three programs are currently at. Again, no logical reason not to play them.

Froggy & HSHW actually nail it.

I think most people are kidding themselves if they think a game like this is going to be this huge awakening to the local hockey scene? The attendance at High School Hockey games are not what they used to be, and they are certainly no where near the days of Duluth Cathedral. Amsoil arena didn't even make the upper bowl available for either section final? Why do we think that an insignificant game in December or January is going to draw any more than that?

In a few years we'll get to see Hermantown and East play when Hermantown is playing AA hockey. It is just going to be inevitable that they move up. Might not be until Bruce retires but that isn't that far off. Side note: I believe Hermantown has a pretty good stream of kids from Duluth Heights and Piedmont Heights coming in, and now I hear they are getting a couple of kids from Hibbing as well. Looks like they might be getting more then 55811 kids.

As far as Marshall. I think you will see that program start to be at the bottom of the LSC again here pretty soon. Randolph has done a pretty good job of getting the top hockey players right out of squirts and so there is less and less kids heading up the hill. The Denfeld program is dying a slow and painful death right now too, so the kids that are going to Marshall in 4th-8th grade don't appear to be hockey players. At least if you go by the A/AA teams at PW & Bantams in Duluth. In addition, now that Hermantown is in section 7 and Marshall will have a hard time beating them the next few years to get to state. With out that carrot to dangle kids are going to ask what local school is going to give me the best chance at getting to St. Paul. Anyone who doesn't think that factors in are living with their head in the sand. There may be some people that don't factor hockey into choosing a school but I promise you there are plenty that do. Not to mention, there doesn't seem to be the parent group there actively trying to persuade players at the youth levels to play at Marshall. The run they have been on since early 00's can be attributed to that and I think that is gone. Finally, Marshall's tuition is projected to be 20K a year in the next couple years. According to this board only people in Hermantown will be able to afford that and we all know no one leaves H-town.

If the choice were mine I wouldn't play Marshall or Hermantown either. I wouldn't play them for the original reasons that were listed on the first post. I would be more open to play Hermantown then Marshall simply because I wouldn't have to directly compete with them for players. To say that an East loss to Marshall wouldn't be used to recruit (for lack of a better word) kids up the hill is ludicrous. I remember hearing East people say to Marshall people after their 3rd straight final loss, "I guess if you are ok with 2nd Marshall is a good option, but if you want to be a champion you'll come to East." haha. Yes, I actually heard that. My point is, this is not an unrealistic reason.

With all this being said, Karl nailed it in his post. He spoke the truth and like it or not he was 100% correct.

Hermantown has had kids come in from other school districts/associations at the lower levels for a few years now, so this isn't a new thing. They just hadn't reached High School yet when Bruce made the comment. Also, 55811 includes parts of Hermantown, Proctor and Duluth School Districts. I'm curious to know why you think it's inevitable that they will opt up? They care about winning Championships. Much easier to do when you're class A. I think they are perfectly content beating smaller schools and going for State Championships. If not, they would have moved up already. How many other Associations in the State field AA teams at Peewee and Bantam and play Class A in High School? Are there any?

To answer the question about BSM being "forced" into a hockey conference. BSM applied to the MSHSL to be placed into a conference after the North Suburban broke up. They were not forced to join three conferences, were denied by each, and the MSHSL placed them there in the Metro West. Assuming they play a Metro West hockey schedule, that will mean two games each against Jefferson, Chanhassen, Chaska, Kennedy, St. Louis Park, Richfield and Cooper.

Froggy Richards wrote:

wannagototherink wrote:

pekyman wrote: Froggy & HSHW actually nail it.

I think most people are kidding themselves if they think a game like this is going to be this huge awakening to the local hockey scene? The attendance at High School Hockey games are not what they used to be, and they are certainly no where near the days of Duluth Cathedral. Amsoil arena didn't even make the upper bowl available for either section final? Why do we think that an insignificant game in December or January is going to draw any more than that?

In a few years we'll get to see Hermantown and East play when Hermantown is playing AA hockey. It is just going to be inevitable that they move up. Might not be until Bruce retires but that isn't that far off. Side note: I believe Hermantown has a pretty good stream of kids from Duluth Heights and Piedmont Heights coming in, and now I hear they are getting a couple of kids from Hibbing as well. Looks like they might be getting more then 55811 kids.

As far as Marshall. I think you will see that program start to be at the bottom of the LSC again here pretty soon. Randolph has done a pretty good job of getting the top hockey players right out of squirts and so there is less and less kids heading up the hill. The Denfeld program is dying a slow and painful death right now too, so the kids that are going to Marshall in 4th-8th grade don't appear to be hockey players. At least if you go by the A/AA teams at PW & Bantams in Duluth. In addition, now that Hermantown is in section 7 and Marshall will have a hard time beating them the next few years to get to state. With out that carrot to dangle kids are going to ask what local school is going to give me the best chance at getting to St. Paul. Anyone who doesn't think that factors in are living with their head in the sand. There may be some people that don't factor hockey into choosing a school but I promise you there are plenty that do. Not to mention, there doesn't seem to be the parent group there actively trying to persuade players at the youth levels to play at Marshall. The run they have been on since early 00's can be attributed to that and I think that is gone. Finally, Marshall's tuition is projected to be 20K a year in the next couple years. According to this board only people in Hermantown will be able to afford that and we all know no one leaves H-town.

If the choice were mine I wouldn't play Marshall or Hermantown either. I wouldn't play them for the original reasons that were listed on the first post. I would be more open to play Hermantown then Marshall simply because I wouldn't have to directly compete with them for players. To say that an East loss to Marshall wouldn't be used to recruit (for lack of a better word) kids up the hill is ludicrous. I remember hearing East people say to Marshall people after their 3rd straight final loss, "I guess if you are ok with 2nd Marshall is a good option, but if you want to be a champion you'll come to East." haha. Yes, I actually heard that. My point is, this is not an unrealistic reason.

With all this being said, Karl nailed it in his post. He spoke the truth and like it or not he was 100% correct.

Hermantown has had kids come in from other school districts/associations at the lower levels for a few years now, so this isn't a new thing. They just hadn't reached High School yet when Bruce made the comment. Also, 55811 includes parts of Hermantown, Proctor and Duluth School Districts. I'm curious to know why you think it's inevitable that they will opt up? They care about winning Championships. Much easier to do when you're class A. I think they are perfectly content beating smaller schools and going for State Championships. If not, they would have moved up already. How many other Associations in the State field AA teams at Peewee and Bantam and play Class A in High School? Are there any?

Just to clarify, Hermantown is about half the size of the largest school in Class A.
Most of the teams Hermantown plays, even in Class A, are bigger than they are.
Hermantown got beat up by a even smaller school in the State Championship game.

2014 Class A State Tourney Team school enrollment
NP – 1,123
Chisago Lakes – 1,034
Orono – 909
TG – 769 (private)
Herm – 615
EGF – 490
Luv – 470
SCC – 417 (private)

I think that the Hermantown program will have to go AA just to keep the forward progress that they have now. Somebody in an earlier post said that nobody leaves Hermantown and that is just not true. They have lost kids to other schools (Denfeld for sure, and I think at least one to Marshal that I know of) and to Jrs. As they keep on importing kids from Hibbing, Proctor, Duluth, Virginia, etc those kids who are the "high bubble kids" in the system now who are being pushed out at the Bantam and High school levels are going to start to leave to find places to play. Bruce says that all of his kids come from the 55811 area code and it is a neat sound byte but not really the whole truth of the matter. I do not think that many of them will go to Marshall if the 20K price tag is accurate but I do see Denfeld getting more of them. Right now Denfeld loses some of their top end talent to Marshall but as Marshall slides and is almost guaranteed not to go back to state anytime soon the draw to go there will drop off. As that talent stays home in Denfeld and they become better they will start to attract those kids who are more than willing to make the drive down the hill from Hermantown and Proctor. The other team that I think will benefit from the Hermantown recruiting moves combined with the Marshall slide and tuition hike (20K really????? wow) is going to be Cloquet. They are a pretty close drive from Duluth/Hermantown/Proctor areas and are a good school and a good hockey program. Look for Hermantown to go AA with or without Bruce at the helm, East to not be willing to play any more of the northern teams than he has to, Cloquet and Denfeld to get better and for Marshall to try to find away into the section 5A group.

Winter is Coming wrote:I think that the Hermantown program will have to go AA just to keep the forward progress that they have now. Somebody in an earlier post said that nobody leaves Hermantown and that is just not true. They have lost kids to other schools (Denfeld for sure, and I think at least one to Marshal that I know of) and to Jrs. As they keep on importing kids from Hibbing, Proctor, Duluth, Virginia, etc those kids who are the "high bubble kids" in the system now who are being pushed out at the Bantam and High school levels are going to start to leave to find places to play. Bruce says that all of his kids come from the 55811 area code and it is a neat sound byte but not really the whole truth of the matter. I do not think that many of them will go to Marshall if the 20K price tag is accurate but I do see Denfeld getting more of them. Right now Denfeld loses some of their top end talent to Marshall but as Marshall slides and is almost guaranteed not to go back to state anytime soon the draw to go there will drop off. As that talent stays home in Denfeld and they become better they will start to attract those kids who are more than willing to make the drive down the hill from Hermantown and Proctor. The other team that I think will benefit from the Hermantown recruiting moves combined with the Marshall slide and tuition hike (20K really????? wow) is going to be Cloquet. They are a pretty close drive from Duluth/Hermantown/Proctor areas and are a good school and a good hockey program. Look for Hermantown to go AA with or without Bruce at the helm, East to not be willing to play any more of the northern teams than he has to, Cloquet and Denfeld to get better and for Marshall to try to find away into the section 5A group.

Interesting perspective and nice read.

kniven wrote:

Winter is Coming wrote:I think that the Hermantown program will have to go AA just to keep the forward progress that they have now. Somebody in an earlier post said that nobody leaves Hermantown and that is just not true. They have lost kids to other schools (Denfeld for sure, and I think at least one to Marshal that I know of) and to Jrs. As they keep on importing kids from Hibbing, Proctor, Duluth, Virginia, etc those kids who are the "high bubble kids" in the system now who are being pushed out at the Bantam and High school levels are going to start to leave to find places to play. Bruce says that all of his kids come from the 55811 area code and it is a neat sound byte but not really the whole truth of the matter. I do not think that many of them will go to Marshall if the 20K price tag is accurate but I do see Denfeld getting more of them. Right now Denfeld loses some of their top end talent to Marshall but as Marshall slides and is almost guaranteed not to go back to state anytime soon the draw to go there will drop off. As that talent stays home in Denfeld and they become better they will start to attract those kids who are more than willing to make the drive down the hill from Hermantown and Proctor. The other team that I think will benefit from the Hermantown recruiting moves combined with the Marshall slide and tuition hike (20K really????? wow) is going to be Cloquet. They are a pretty close drive from Duluth/Hermantown/Proctor areas and are a good school and a good hockey program. Look for Hermantown to go AA with or without Bruce at the helm, East to not be willing to play any more of the northern teams than he has to, Cloquet and Denfeld to get better and for Marshall to try to find away into the section 5A group.

Interesting perspective and nice read.

I agree, great perspective and interesting read. The only thing I disagree with is that Denfeld will attract any players. That's just not going to happen with the change in demographics in West Duluth over the last five years. And I believe that Proctor will start to keep their players too. There is a young group of talented players there that are committed to Proctor Hockey and want to stay and build up the program. Only time will tell if I'm right or not.

Froggy Richards wrote:How many other Associations in the State field AA teams at Peewee and Bantam and play Class A in High School? Are there any?

Hibbing might be the only one left. They had AA Peewee and Bantam teams last year, but their Peewee's dropped to A this year. So they are partially there. My guess is their Bantams drop to A next year too though.

PuckRanger wrote:

Froggy Richards wrote:How many other Associations in the State field AA teams at Peewee and Bantam and play Class A in High School? Are there any?

Hibbing might be the only one left. They had AA Peewee and Bantam teams last year, but their Peewee's dropped to A this year. So they are partially there. My guess is their Bantams drop to A next year too though.

And their is absolutely nothing wrong with single A youth hockey! But it is just silly that a town would play AA youth and single A high school.

Froggy Richards wrote:

kniven wrote:

Winter is Coming wrote:I think that the Hermantown program will have to go AA just to keep the forward progress that they have now. Somebody in an earlier post said that nobody leaves Hermantown and that is just not true. They have lost kids to other schools (Denfeld for sure, and I think at least one to Marshal that I know of) and to Jrs. As they keep on importing kids from Hibbing, Proctor, Duluth, Virginia, etc those kids who are the "high bubble kids" in the system now who are being pushed out at the Bantam and High school levels are going to start to leave to find places to play. Bruce says that all of his kids come from the 55811 area code and it is a neat sound byte but not really the whole truth of the matter. I do not think that many of them will go to Marshall if the 20K price tag is accurate but I do see Denfeld getting more of them. Right now Denfeld loses some of their top end talent to Marshall but as Marshall slides and is almost guaranteed not to go back to state anytime soon the draw to go there will drop off. As that talent stays home in Denfeld and they become better they will start to attract those kids who are more than willing to make the drive down the hill from Hermantown and Proctor. The other team that I think will benefit from the Hermantown recruiting moves combined with the Marshall slide and tuition hike (20K really????? wow) is going to be Cloquet. They are a pretty close drive from Duluth/Hermantown/Proctor areas and are a good school and a good hockey program. Look for Hermantown to go AA with or without Bruce at the helm, East to not be willing to play any more of the northern teams than he has to, Cloquet and Denfeld to get better and for Marshall to try to find away into the section 5A group.

Interesting perspective and nice read.

I agree, great perspective and interesting read. The only thing I disagree with is that Denfeld will attract any players. That's just not going to happen with the change in demographics in West Duluth over the last five years. And I believe that Proctor will start to keep their players too. There is a young group of talented players there that are committed to Proctor Hockey and want to stay and build up the program. Only time will tell if I'm right or not.

The only reason that I am not 100% in agreement with you is based on the school situation. I think that after that remodel and if Duluth gets it's poop in a group from the school stand point that they would be more attactice that Proctor for a kid wanting to transfer. With that said I don't think that it matters if it is Denfeld or Proctor the rest of it pretty well stays on course.

Cloquet folks laugh at the idiocy that runs East. They could have the greatest rivalry weekend in the state and have a sell out at the big rink downtown, but East is afraid to lose to A programs. I know because I talked with the AD. Twice.

pepperpot wrote:Cloquet folks laugh at the idiocy that runs East. They could have the greatest rivalry weekend in the state and have a sell out at the big rink downtown, but East is afraid to lose to A programs. I know because I talked with the AD. Twice.

Assuming that the post Slammer put up in another thread on the forum here means what it seems to mean that might be changing too.

pepperpot wrote:Cloquet folks laugh at the idiocy that runs East. They could have the greatest rivalry weekend in the state and have a sell out at the big rink downtown, but East is afraid to lose to A programs. I know because I talked with the AD. Twice.

Uh-huh. This is the part where we just believe you, right?

Lee