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HockeyBum wrote:How stupid does that sound? Just because a team has quality parents and coaching staff and has the ability to show success at their level doesnt mean an organization should move up.

The mentality of this thread shows why your teams struggle. Get rid of the best and we will have more to be proud of, instead of figuring out how to improve and emmulate the better teams.

I will tell you all this much. Hermantown, Warroad, Roseau, etc... (small communities with good hockey programs) have one thing in common. They all have a lot of parents and coaches at the youth program that are accomplished hockey players and come from a ong line of successful hockey programs. They get it and know how to compete and they instill that same mentality in their kids.

Its not about numbers at all. Its about quality parents, quality coaches, quality youth hockey leadership (board of directors). It is also a commitment to ongoing skills development and training year round (sacrafice). Once a program shows some success others want to be a part of that. These teams dont have to recruit, EGF, Roseau, Warroad, Hermantown, etc... are the benifactor of a successful program and people move into town to be a part of that.

This conversation comes up every year and all you are doing is having a pitty party because it is hard to develop a quality organization and community.

Maybe you look at changing the rules to completely prevent players moving to new programs. All of these outstates teams loss players and their organization goes down hill because 1-2 players leave for greener pastures.

Okay, I'll take the bait. I agree completely that it is quality coaches, parents, organizations, and an overall culture of hockey that make a program really flourish. However, your assertion "It's not about numbers at all." would be a heavy, heavy favorite to win the Preposterous Statement Tournament. If your statement were true, then Roseau would win the state title every year, as they have the best overall hockey culture in the state-easily.

Take the Iron Range schools for example. Hibbing, Greenway, Eveleth, I-Falls, and Grand Rapids all have loads of history and success, which to this day sustains excellent hockey cultures in these towns. The only difference between these teams during their heyday and now is the reduced numbers. The coaches and parents are still former D1 and star HS players, but there are just less of them now due to the economics of the region.

Another good example is Duluth East. When East finally hit the HS hockey map in the 90's, they spent the next decade putting out some of the best HS teams ever. And while they still put out excellent teams today, they are not to the level of those mid-late 90's teams because the numbers have fallen. Not only has enrollment gone down across the board in Duluth (they closed one of the high schools, for God's sake!), but top players in the area began to choose Duluth Marshall and Hermantown. If East had the same deathgrip on local talent now that they had back in the 90's, they would still be putting out all-time teams on a regular basis. Numbers matter.

I think of a team's hockey culture as being a multiplier on the numbers of kids. (i.e. quality of hockey culture x size of talent pool = rate of hockey success). That's how STA, a school that had zero hockey culture, could find success so quickly: they were drawing from an enormous talent pool that made the culture multiplier insignificant. And its how Roseau, with a relatively tiny talent pool, can stay relevant: through the incredible magnifying effect of its unmatched hockey culture.

Hermantown has built a fantastic hockey culture and it has greatly magnified their enrollment number as they are a great success. They deserve plenty of praise for what they have done. But you can't ignore the fact that they are smack dab in the middle of a 131,000 person metro area. Yes, they only take kids who live in Hermantown, but it is extremely easy for a well-to-do hockey family in the Duluth metro area to move to Hermantown and not have it significantly disrupt their job, proximity to extended family, etc. This is a distinct advantage for the Hawks and it effectively increases the talent pool they draw from without increasing the school's enrollment. Plante and the community have built a great program, but to pretend that they don't benefit from being connected to Duluth ignores reality.

I agree with what Greenway1969 said about a lack of prior success influencing how teams can look at opting up. Cloquet, Grand Rapids, Roseau, Hibbing, Greenway, and Bemidji have had success on the big stage. These teams know what it is like to either be the best in the state or else be in contention to be the best in the state. This is what keeps Cloquet, Rapids, Roseau, and Bemidji in AA, and its what keeps Hibbing and Greenway fans hoping that they can get back to AA. They don't want to just be the best in A. They want to be the best in the state. They've been there or been close, and anything less is dissatisfying. I'd love it if Hibbing won the A tournament, but in my mind and in other Hibbing fans' minds we'd still know it wasn't as sweet as it could be. Hermantown has won an A title, but no one speaks of them as the best in the state.

This is why I am dumbfounded that Hermantown does not opt up. I don't think it is a push factor for Hermantown; they're not taking advantage of Class A the way STA was and Breck still is. I see it as a pull factor. The chance to be the best in the state. The Hawks once again have a great team. Sure, they aren't as good as LN and Edina, but if they met those teams in the AA tourney, they would have a puncher' chance to win. Hawk fans may not know it yet, but to lose in the semifinals of the big tourney is light years more gratifying than losing the A title game. I promise. I've experienced both as a Hibbing fan.

I would kill for Hibbing to have that puncher's chance against an Edina or LN down at the X. The whole state would be pulling for my team, the crowd would be pulling for them, and if they won it would be remembered for a long time by HS hockey fans. And it blows my mind that Hermantown could have this right now, yet they don't go for it. The only reason I can conceive of that makes this so is that they don't know what they're missing.

I know what they're missing. Greenway, Cloquet, Roseau, and Rapids fans know what they're missing. That's why I want Hibbing to opt up for the next two years. I think their chances of getting to state out of 7AA next year would be close to zero, but the year after that I think they'd have that puncher's chance to get to state, and a puncher's chance once they were there. If they didn't make it to state or went two and out at state, I sure wouldn't be wishing they had played for the A title instead.

The Hawks aren't being punished for their success, they're being invited to compete for a chance to be the best in the state. Take it now when you have the chance! As Hibbing, Greenway, Bloomington Jefferson, Holy Angels, etc. will tell you, it's an opportunity that doesn't last forever.

Ok so what I am getting from this thread and a lot of others are two things:

1) Private Schools are the thing that goes bump in the night to high school freshman.

2) Most parents, alum, fans of their respective teams are have the same mentality as most on food stamps.

I'm going to get torn apart for being ignorant and a non-sympathizer but honestly others have said it and it doesn't seem to be sinking in and i don't know how! These are high school aged kids who are competing in a sport they love. So what if the school they choose to go to is private or has a large youth program. Everyone on this board seems to think it is always the parents choice anyway. Have we all really lost touch that this is a game we all love and these are KIDS trying to do something most of the people on this board never did. Play in the state tournament.

Life is unfair and you can either spend your time complaining about it or trying to change your own path. Suffice it to say too many people choose to complain.

pekyman wrote:

HockeyBum wrote:How stupid does that sound? Just because a team has quality parents and coaching staff and has the ability to show success at their level doesnt mean an organization should move up.

The mentality of this thread shows why your teams struggle. Get rid of the best and we will have more to be proud of, instead of figuring out how to improve and emmulate the better teams.

I will tell you all this much. Hermantown, Warroad, Roseau, etc... (small communities with good hockey programs) have one thing in common. They all have a lot of parents and coaches at the youth program that are accomplished hockey players and come from a ong line of successful hockey programs. They get it and know how to compete and they instill that same mentality in their kids.

Its not about numbers at all. Its about quality parents, quality coaches, quality youth hockey leadership (board of directors). It is also a commitment to ongoing skills development and training year round (sacrafice). Once a program shows some success others want to be a part of that. These teams dont have to recruit, EGF, Roseau, Warroad, Hermantown, etc... are the benifactor of a successful program and people move into town to be a part of that.

This conversation comes up every year and all you are doing is having a pitty party because it is hard to develop a quality organization and community.

Maybe you look at changing the rules to completely prevent players moving to new programs. All of these outstates teams loss players and their organization goes down hill because 1-2 players leave for greener pastures.

Wow some common sense on this thread!

Are you being sarcastic or.....because I totally believe in what he is saying. Most communities are a reflection of the attitudes/tradition of the area. Numbers help but it's easy to point out teams in the metro that'd get pummeled by an average A team.

You know what the key is to a successful youth program don't ya?

Full ice games for Mites.

Rainer, you have done a great job in explaining why Hermantown should take the challenge of moving up to AA. The atmosphere at the X is world aparts in A vs AA sessions. Why anyone would not take a chance on being part of the greatest high school event in the country puzzles me. That opportunity will not be available to Greenway, the numbers just will never be the same as they once were. Anyone who doesn't think that enrollment is not one of the biggest factors in success is woefully ignorant. Does high enrollment guarantee success? No. But please explain why its the huge suburban schools and privates that are dominating the tournament. The small Northen schools have great youth programs but have had little success at the tournament or even against AA schools in regular season games. Only Roseau and Rapids have had some success in the last 10 years. After the next realignment, Roseau wil have great difficulty in getting to the X. I haven't seen their youth programs with any great success, although they sure do know how to develop the players for high school. In this day you need both large enrollment and a good youth program. If you don't have both, your chances of making a good showing at State or even getting to State are not that great. Hermantown has the ability to be an exception to this and why you wouldn't want to even try is something I just can't comprehend. Apparently Hermantown is satisfied with being a big fish in a little pond. One trip to the AA tournament with some type of trophy will be much more memorable than five straight runner-up finishes in the A tournament. I admire Duluth Marshall for opting up for the next four years. Striving to be among the best is what any program should aspire to be. I never root for a private school, but this year I would like to see Marshall beat Hermantown and get to state.

Sotaboy wrote:

pekyman wrote:

HockeyBum wrote:How stupid does that sound? Just because a team has quality parents and coaching staff and has the ability to show success at their level doesnt mean an organization should move up.

The mentality of this thread shows why your teams struggle. Get rid of the best and we will have more to be proud of, instead of figuring out how to improve and emmulate the better teams.

I will tell you all this much. Hermantown, Warroad, Roseau, etc... (small communities with good hockey programs) have one thing in common. They all have a lot of parents and coaches at the youth program that are accomplished hockey players and come from a ong line of successful hockey programs. They get it and know how to compete and they instill that same mentality in their kids.

Its not about numbers at all. Its about quality parents, quality coaches, quality youth hockey leadership (board of directors). It is also a commitment to ongoing skills development and training year round (sacrafice). Once a program shows some success others want to be a part of that. These teams dont have to recruit, EGF, Roseau, Warroad, Hermantown, etc... are the benifactor of a successful program and people move into town to be a part of that.

This conversation comes up every year and all you are doing is having a pitty party because it is hard to develop a quality organization and community.

Maybe you look at changing the rules to completely prevent players moving to new programs. All of these outstates teams loss players and their organization goes down hill because 1-2 players leave for greener pastures.

Wow some common sense on this thread!

Are you being sarcastic or.....because I totally believe in what he is saying. Most communities are a reflection of the attitudes/tradition of the area. Numbers help but it's easy to point out teams in the metro that'd get pummeled by an average A team.

What metro teams with decent numbers of players would get "pummeled by an average A team" because I can't think of an "easy" one that stick out.

I posted this earlier in the thread with no reply for or against either way. I still think it has merit.

The winner of the A tourney moves to AA the very next year. No two year deal just move right up for a year. If they get back to state, they stay AA until they miss, then, if they wish, they can opt back down.

Hermantown would most likely have won a championship in the last 3 years and be playing AA. STA would have left A sooner. Some other northern team would have taken the Hermantown spot. Another team gets to take the STA spot, etc.

Just Checking wrote:I posted this earlier in the thread with no reply for or against either way. I still think it has merit.

The winner of the A tourney moves to AA the very next year. No two year deal just move right up for a year. If they get back to state, they stay AA until they miss, then, if they wish, they can opt back down.

Hermantown would most likely have won a championship in the last 3 years and be playing AA. STA would have left A sooner. Some other northern team would have taken the Hermantown spot. Another team gets to take the STA spot, etc.

Reread the thread.

Promotion/relegation systems don't work well in youth athletics for a myriad of reasons.

thestickler07 wrote:

Just Checking wrote:I posted this earlier in the thread with no reply for or against either way. I still think it has merit.

The winner of the A tourney moves to AA the very next year. No two year deal just move right up for a year. If they get back to state, they stay AA until they miss, then, if they wish, they can opt back down.

Hermantown would most likely have won a championship in the last 3 years and be playing AA. STA would have left A sooner. Some other northern team would have taken the Hermantown spot. Another team gets to take the STA spot, etc.

Reread the thread.

Promotion/relegation systems don't work well in youth athletics for a myriad of reasons.

I read it the first time, just skimmed the majority again. I did not see the the reasons why this does not work. I apologize, if you could take the time to list few. Thanks.

Not looking for relegation here, just offering a way to make the A tourney more accessible to teams stuck behind "dynasties" if you will. Short term, temporary, move up, opens the door for others and gives the move up a taste of the big dance, potentially.

greenway1969 wrote:Rainer, you have done a great job in explaining why Hermantown should take the challenge of moving up to AA. The atmosphere at the X is world aparts in A vs AA sessions. Why anyone would not take a chance on being part of the greatest high school event in the country puzzles me. That opportunity will not be available to Greenway, the numbers just will never be the same as they once were. Anyone who doesn't think that enrollment is not one of the biggest factors in success is woefully ignorant. Does high enrollment guarantee success? No. But please explain why its the huge suburban schools and privates that are dominating the tournament. The small Northen schools have great youth programs but have had little success at the tournament or even against AA schools in regular season games. Only Roseau and Rapids have had some success in the last 10 years. After the next realignment, Roseau wil have great difficulty in getting to the X. I haven't seen their youth programs with any great success, although they sure do know how to develop the players for high school. In this day you need both large enrollment and a good youth program. If you don't have both, your chances of making a good showing at State or even getting to State are not that great. Hermantown has the ability to be an exception to this and why you wouldn't want to even try is something I just can't comprehend. Apparently Hermantown is satisfied with being a big fish in a little pond. One trip to the AA tournament with some type of trophy will be much more memorable than five straight runner-up finishes in the A tournament. I admire Duluth Marshall for opting up for the next four years. Striving to be among the best is what any program should aspire to be. I never root for a private school, but this year I would like to see Marshall beat Hermantown and get to state.

Wow, looks like Hermantown has pulled off the near impossible. They have everyone cheering for a Private!

Just Checking wrote:

thestickler07 wrote:

Just Checking wrote:I posted this earlier in the thread with no reply for or against either way. I still think it has merit.

The winner of the A tourney moves to AA the very next year. No two year deal just move right up for a year. If they get back to state, they stay AA until they miss, then, if they wish, they can opt back down.

Hermantown would most likely have won a championship in the last 3 years and be playing AA. STA would have left A sooner. Some other northern team would have taken the Hermantown spot. Another team gets to take the STA spot, etc.

Reread the thread.

Promotion/relegation systems don't work well in youth athletics for a myriad of reasons.

I read it the first time, just skimmed the majority again. I did not see the the reasons why this does not work. I apologize, if you could take the time to list few. Thanks.

Not looking for relegation here, just offering a way to make the A tourney more accessible to teams stuck behind "dynasties" if you will. Short term, temporary, move up, opens the door for others and gives the move up a taste of the big dance, potentially.

Ultimately, what needs to be answered is "what is the point of the extra class?" but rarely is. It's easy to point fingers, but unless that's answered, the finger pointing really doesn't do anything.
The idea that the class you play in makes you a less quality program/team is not an opinion shared by all, but it is a pretty prominent one.

I can think of D3 programs in many different sports who have been dominant for years, sometimes decades. No one says, "they're amazing, so they should move up to D2 or D1." It would be silly.

Isn't the whole point to chase trophies?

Get rid of the A / AA and put 16 teams in St. Paul in late March.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

Just Checking wrote:

thestickler07 wrote: Reread the thread.

Promotion/relegation systems don't work well in youth athletics for a myriad of reasons.

I read it the first time, just skimmed the majority again. I did not see the the reasons why this does not work. I apologize, if you could take the time to list few. Thanks.

Not looking for relegation here, just offering a way to make the A tourney more accessible to teams stuck behind "dynasties" if you will. Short term, temporary, move up, opens the door for others and gives the move up a taste of the big dance, potentially.

Ultimately, what needs to be answered is "what is the point of the extra class?" but rarely is. It's easy to point fingers, but unless that's answered, the finger pointing really doesn't do anything.
The idea that the class you play in makes you a less quality program/team is not an opinion shared by all, but it is a pretty prominent one.

I can think of D3 programs in many different sports who have been dominant for years, sometimes decades. No one says, "they're amazing, so they should move up to D2 or D1." It would be silly.

Isn't the whole point to chase trophies?

Actually, there are college teams that face pressure to move up to a higher division. NDSU was a great Div II football program, they moved up to I-AA (FCS) because they wanted a bigger challenge, and now that they have won 4 straight FCS titles, there are many fans who are calling for them to move to full-on FBS. Also, I believe BSU, SCSU, and Mankato St. were all lower division hockey programs that moved up to D-I. It does happen at the college level.

But comparing college to high school isn't just apples-to-oranges, it's watermelons to blueberries. NDSU's athletic director has responded to the to call to move up by explaining that they would have to add something like 18 scholarships to go FBS, and that their athletic budget just couldn't handle what it would take. In fact, I think the only reason their athletic department finishes in the black is due to the 3 extra home games they get each year from their dominant football program.

Nothing like this is a consideration for a HS team considering an A to AA move. Just sign a paper that says: "We'd like to be AA for the next couple years."

And when people use the term "chase trophies", they are using it in the pejorative sense. They use it to mean a consistently great team choosing to play against lesser teams because they know it means their chances of success are greatly increased.

The point of the extra class was so that smaller schools could get a chance at a state tourney. It has worked well for the most part, but the metro private schools really made a mockery of it for a decade or so.

BSU and probably the others had no choice. Not having D 2 hockey they could not participate in D3 because they were. a D2 school,for everything else.
Choice d1 or no hockey.
Of course all Bemidji locals are happy with the D 1 level. Even though it is tough sledding and we were used to competing for a D2 or D3 national title every year.

It's really funny isn't it? A few years ago there were tons of people calling for STA to opt up and people like myself and HSHW and others said that when that happens all that's gonna change is people starting to say the same thing for Hermantown, Warroad, and other small town communities with strong hockey programs. People responded by saying that wouldn't happen because they weren't private and weren't destroying the spirit of class A hockey like some private schools.

And now we are here....

warriors41 wrote:It's really funny isn't it? A few years ago there were tons of people calling for STA to opt up and people like myself and HSHW and others said that when that happens all that's gonna change is people starting to say the same thing for Hermantown, Warroad, and other small town communities with strong hockey programs. People responded by saying that wouldn't happen because they weren't private and weren't destroying the spirit of class A hockey like some private schools.

And now we are here....

For the record, I don't think anyone should be calling for Warroad to move up.

However, is it so bad to have people think that your program is so good that they should compete at the highest level? Isn't that a compliment? Nobody's calling for any teams that would get destroyed at the AA level to move up. Most people seem to be saying "If you can compete at the highest levels of AA, then why the heck wouldn't you?" I pray for the day people start saying that Hibbing should be playing in AA.

Again, I do not think this applies to Warroad.

rainier wrote:

warriors41 wrote:It's really funny isn't it? A few years ago there were tons of people calling for STA to opt up and people like myself and HSHW and others said that when that happens all that's gonna change is people starting to say the same thing for Hermantown, Warroad, and other small town communities with strong hockey programs. People responded by saying that wouldn't happen because they weren't private and weren't destroying the spirit of class A hockey like some private schools.

And now we are here....

For the record, I don't think anyone should be calling for Warroad to move up.

However, is it so bad to have people think that your program is so good that they should compete at the highest level? Isn't that a compliment? Nobody's calling for any teams that would get destroyed at the AA level to move up. Most people seem to be saying "If you can compete at the highest levels of AA, then why the heck wouldn't you?" I pray for the day people start saying that Hibbing should be playing in AA.

Again, I do not think this applies to Warroad.

Roughly ten years ago, people were crying out loudly for Warroad to move up. They were the equivalent then of what Hermantown is now, except for the string of consecutive runner-up trophies. Funny how perspective changes as a team falls/rises.

Lee

rainier wrote:

warriors41 wrote:It's really funny isn't it? A few years ago there were tons of people calling for STA to opt up and people like myself and HSHW and others said that when that happens all that's gonna change is people starting to say the same thing for Hermantown, Warroad, and other small town communities with strong hockey programs. People responded by saying that wouldn't happen because they weren't private and weren't destroying the spirit of class A hockey like some private schools.

And now we are here....

For the record, I don't think anyone should be calling for Warroad to move up.

However, is it so bad to have people think that your program is so good that they should compete at the highest level? Isn't that a compliment? Nobody's calling for any teams that would get destroyed at the AA level to move up. Most people seem to be saying "If you can compete at the highest levels of AA, then why the heck wouldn't you?" I pray for the day people start saying that Hibbing should be playing in AA.

Again, I do not think this applies to Warroad.

I agree people haven't really said that about Warroad the last few gets but that's just because they've been down this year and will probably be down for awhile. However, I do honestly believe that that state champ last year was going to be either Warroad or EGF but EGF ended up winning in sections and went on to win state. Had Warroad won the section 8 championship and went on to win state then there would have been calls to move up.

I agree on your other point too honestly about it being a compliment that people say you could compete in a higher class. But that's not what's really happening here. It isn't usually a simple compliment. It seems as if many people call them cowards for hiding or otherwise act very disrespectfully in reference to these programs.

In summary:
Compliment - wow, you guys are good enough to compete with the best in class AA
Disrespect - you guys are good enough to compete with the best in class AA, and if you don't you are stupid,cowards, trophy chasers, etc...

warriors41 wrote:

rainier wrote:

warriors41 wrote:It's really funny isn't it? A few years ago there were tons of people calling for STA to opt up and people like myself and HSHW and others said that when that happens all that's gonna change is people starting to say the same thing for Hermantown, Warroad, and other small town communities with strong hockey programs. People responded by saying that wouldn't happen because they weren't private and weren't destroying the spirit of class A hockey like some private schools.

And now we are here....

For the record, I don't think anyone should be calling for Warroad to move up.

However, is it so bad to have people think that your program is so good that they should compete at the highest level? Isn't that a compliment? Nobody's calling for any teams that would get destroyed at the AA level to move up. Most people seem to be saying "If you can compete at the highest levels of AA, then why the heck wouldn't you?" I pray for the day people start saying that Hibbing should be playing in AA.

Again, I do not think this applies to Warroad.

I agree people haven't really said that about Warroad the last few gets but that's just because they've been down this year and will probably be down for awhile. However, I do honestly believe that that state champ last year was going to be either Warroad or EGF but EGF ended up winning in sections and went on to win state. Had Warroad won the section 8 championship and went on to win state then there would have been calls to move up.

I agree on your other point too honestly about it being a compliment that people say you could compete in a higher class. But that's not what's really happening here. It isn't usually a simple compliment. It seems as if many people call them cowards for hiding or otherwise act very disrespectfully in reference to these programs.

In summary:
Compliment - wow, you guys are good enough to compete with the best in class AA
Disrespect - you guys are good enough to compete with the best in class AA, and if you don't you are stupid,cowards, trophy chasers, etc...

I get what you're saying. I think the metro private schools deserved all the heat they got, as after they got their programs up and running in the metro, there was really no reason to stay in A. I think it became a moral issue in that instance.

I don't see it as a moral issue for Hermantown now or Warroad from ten years ago. I just see it as a missed chance for them to compete at the highest level and give yourself the chance to do something legendary at state. The A titles are nice, yes, but how much sweeter would a AA title be? Once you've got an A title in your pocket, why not go for the big fish the next time you have a great class come through?

In a perfect world, A teams would opt up more often when they had a great class come through. If a team has never made a significant run in A, then they should go for it in A and use that as a springboard to build steam around their program and grow. Once that is accomplished, then I think teams should opt up for the years that they have a legitimate chance of getting to state in AA.

Take EGF, for example. They won their first A title last year and have a solid shot to do it again this year, or at least make a deep run. (Provided the Warriors don't knock them off!) In my perfect world, if EGF has another group come through like this one, then they would say to themselves "Hey, we already have proven ourselves at the small show, now let's go for the big prize."

Hibbing hasn't even won an A title and I wish they'd go AA for the next couple years. I think they'd be a top 3 seed in 7AA in 2017, which is good enough for me to want them to opt-up. (Although, one could argue with Hermantown in 7A, Hibbing may be taking the easy road by moving to 7AA. )

elliott70 wrote:BSU and probably the others had no choice. Not having D 2 hockey they could not participate in D3 because they were. a D2 school,for everything else.
Choice d1 or no hockey.
Of course all Bemidji locals are happy with the D 1 level. Even though it is tough sledding and we were used to competing for a D2 or D3 national title every year.

This is a great example. How did the Beavers Frozen Four run compare to the D2 title runs?

I'm guessing it was like the hockey fan enjoyment equivalent of upgrading from a Yugo to a Rolls Royce.

Maybe a Lexus....

rainier wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:

Just Checking wrote: I read it the first time, just skimmed the majority again. I did not see the the reasons why this does not work. I apologize, if you could take the time to list few. Thanks.

Not looking for relegation here, just offering a way to make the A tourney more accessible to teams stuck behind "dynasties" if you will. Short term, temporary, move up, opens the door for others and gives the move up a taste of the big dance, potentially.

Ultimately, what needs to be answered is "what is the point of the extra class?" but rarely is. It's easy to point fingers, but unless that's answered, the finger pointing really doesn't do anything.
The idea that the class you play in makes you a less quality program/team is not an opinion shared by all, but it is a pretty prominent one.

I can think of D3 programs in many different sports who have been dominant for years, sometimes decades. No one says, "they're amazing, so they should move up to D2 or D1." It would be silly.

Isn't the whole point to chase trophies?

Actually, there are college teams that face pressure to move up to a higher division. NDSU was a great Div II football program, they moved up to I-AA (FCS) because they wanted a bigger challenge, and now that they have won 4 straight FCS titles, there are many fans who are calling for them to move to full-on FBS. Also, I believe BSU, SCSU, and Mankato St. were all lower division hockey programs that moved up to D-I. It does happen at the college level.

But comparing college to high school isn't just apples-to-oranges, it's watermelons to blueberries. NDSU's athletic director has responded to the to call to move up by explaining that they would have to add something like 18 scholarships to go FBS, and that their athletic budget just couldn't handle what it would take. In fact, I think the only reason their athletic department finishes in the black is due to the 3 extra home games they get each year from their dominant football program.

Nothing like this is a consideration for a HS team considering an A to AA move. Just sign a paper that says: "We'd like to be AA for the next couple years."

And when people use the term "chase trophies", they are using it in the pejorative sense. They use it to mean a consistently great team choosing to play against lesser teams because they know it means their chances of success are greatly increased.

The point of the extra class was so that smaller schools could get a chance at a state tourney. It has worked well for the most part, but the metro private schools really made a mockery of it for a decade or so.

The point wasn't that it can't happen, but that for many it shouldn't.
For the schools that change classes, a commitment of resources is definitely involved.

"...so that smaller schools could get a chance at a state tourney"
I assume you mean winning, not attending?

rainier wrote:In a perfect world, A teams would opt up more often when they had a great class come through. If a team has never made a significant run in A, then they should go for it in A and use that as a springboard to build steam around their program and grow. Once that is accomplished, then I think teams should opt up for the years that they have a legitimate chance of getting to state in AA.

Take EGF, for example. They won their first A title last year and have a solid shot to do it again this year, or at least make a deep run. (Provided the Warriors don't knock them off!) In my perfect world, if EGF has another group come through like this one, then they would say to themselves "Hey, we already have proven ourselves at the small show, now let's go for the big prize."

Hibbing hasn't even won an A title and I wish they'd go AA for the next couple years. I think they'd be a top 3 seed in 7AA in 2017, which is good enough for me to want them to opt-up. (Although, one could argue with Hermantown in 7A, Hibbing may be taking the easy road by moving to 7AA. )

Why does a community's past success have ties to current players and what their aspirations should be?

east hockey wrote:

rainier wrote:

warriors41 wrote:It's really funny isn't it? A few years ago there were tons of people calling for STA to opt up and people like myself and HSHW and others said that when that happens all that's gonna change is people starting to say the same thing for Hermantown, Warroad, and other small town communities with strong hockey programs. People responded by saying that wouldn't happen because they weren't private and weren't destroying the spirit of class A hockey like some private schools.

And now we are here....

For the record, I don't think anyone should be calling for Warroad to move up.

However, is it so bad to have people think that your program is so good that they should compete at the highest level? Isn't that a compliment? Nobody's calling for any teams that would get destroyed at the AA level to move up. Most people seem to be saying "If you can compete at the highest levels of AA, then why the heck wouldn't you?" I pray for the day people start saying that Hibbing should be playing in AA.

Again, I do not think this applies to Warroad.

Roughly ten years ago, people were crying out loudly for Warroad to move up. They were the equivalent then of what Hermantown is now, except for the string of consecutive runner-up trophies. Funny how perspective changes as a team falls/rises.

Lee

I disagree, Hermantown loves the poor us routine, we just play where we're supposed to play. Then they go out and schedule Wayzata and a host of other AA schools. Obviously they think they can play at that level in the regular season. Also they, and I'll throw East Grand Forks into the mix as well, aren't exactly coming from small town Minnesota....they're coming from large population centers with major univerisities and all the amenities that come with it.

F/R lunch rate in 7A:
Hermantown 12%
Denfeld 52%
Hibbing 32%
Ely 39%
Virginia 35%
Int. Falls 28%
Greenway 39%
North Shore 40%
Eveleth 30%

Hermantown fits into the profile of a class A private school more than it does most of the public class A hockey teams.

Warroad never fit that profile and the call for them to move up was more out of "us" wanting an underdog to cheer for.

Just for stat geek sake here are the highest and lowest F/R lunch rates in traditional schools in Minnesota:
St. Paul Humbolt - 93%
Minneapolis Edison - 91%
Red Lake - 82%
Columbia Heights - 78%

Chanhassen - 7%
Lakeville North 7%
Minnetonka 7%

(Edina doesn't make the top 5)

HShockeywatcher wrote:

rainier wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote: Ultimately, what needs to be answered is "what is the point of the extra class?" but rarely is. It's easy to point fingers, but unless that's answered, the finger pointing really doesn't do anything.
The idea that the class you play in makes you a less quality program/team is not an opinion shared by all, but it is a pretty prominent one.

I can think of D3 programs in many different sports who have been dominant for years, sometimes decades. No one says, "they're amazing, so they should move up to D2 or D1." It would be silly.

Isn't the whole point to chase trophies?

Actually, there are college teams that face pressure to move up to a higher division. NDSU was a great Div II football program, they moved up to I-AA (FCS) because they wanted a bigger challenge, and now that they have won 4 straight FCS titles, there are many fans who are calling for them to move to full-on FBS. Also, I believe BSU, SCSU, and Mankato St. were all lower division hockey programs that moved up to D-I. It does happen at the college level.

But comparing college to high school isn't just apples-to-oranges, it's watermelons to blueberries. NDSU's athletic director has responded to the to call to move up by explaining that they would have to add something like 18 scholarships to go FBS, and that their athletic budget just couldn't handle what it would take. In fact, I think the only reason their athletic department finishes in the black is due to the 3 extra home games they get each year from their dominant football program.

Nothing like this is a consideration for a HS team considering an A to AA move. Just sign a paper that says: "We'd like to be AA for the next couple years."

And when people use the term "chase trophies", they are using it in the pejorative sense. They use it to mean a consistently great team choosing to play against lesser teams because they know it means their chances of success are greatly increased.

The point of the extra class was so that smaller schools could get a chance at a state tourney. It has worked well for the most part, but the metro private schools really made a mockery of it for a decade or so.

The point wasn't that it can't happen, but that for many it shouldn't.
For the schools that change classes, a commitment of resources is definitely involved.

"...so that smaller schools could get a chance at a state tourney"
I assume you mean winning, not attending?

Your quote:
"I can think of D3 programs in many different sports who have been dominant for years, sometimes decades. No one says, "they're amazing, so they should move up to D2 or D1." It would be silly. "

seemed to me to suggest that it doesn't happen. I was just pointing out that it does. Shouldn't happen? You don't think NDSU fans shouldn't want their team to play at the highest level possible? Or any team for that matter?

And how does a change to AA require a commitment of resources that A doesn't?

Winning, attending, either way. I think Class A was created to give smaller schools a chance at making state and having a chance to win it all.