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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:22 am
by zamboniexhaustinhaler
Green and White Fan wrote:Any changes that would ever be made, have to be made on the basis of what is best for the kids. We have to remember these are school sponsored extra-curricular activities for the kids and not necessarily there to appease our wants and what hockey used to be. Take Roseau for example, the time is coming where we will need to take a good look at what is best for our kids, A or AA? Everybody loves the Roseau/Edina matchup, but is that what is best for Roseau hockey as hockey has evolved? Is a shot at state once every 10-15 years now good enough? What about the players playing the other 9-14 years? Or do we make a move to class A, save a lot of travel, renew rivalries with our neighbors and give our kids a chance to go to state more than once a decade? We still wouldn't go to state every year as EGF, TRF and Warroad for sure will be obstacles every year. We haven't had a youth team at the state tournament since we started playing AA youth hockey. Losing is becoming more common place and even excepted. Is this what is best for the kids? The hockey landscape has changed, out state declining enrollment is effecting numbers and each program plus the high school league will need to make decisions on what is best for the kids.
Any changes made will be made on the same thing as ever; what will generate the most money.
Period.
If there's any changes, the usual "This is best for (kids, hockey, whatever)" smoke screen will be announced.
But it's about money.
It always is.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:19 am
by MrBoDangles
alcloseshaver wrote:Of note the MSHSL general assembly did vote today to change the way they count coops. 100% of the largest school and 50% of the others.
This would send MAML and many others back where they belong.. But why make these rules when they don't follow their old rules? Will the high school league actually follow these rules?
Book smarts.. With no common sense..
](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall")
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:30 am
by HShockeywatcher
Has anyone with any pull in any MN sport ever suggested a playoff system that you had to qualify for? The idea that every team 'makes the playoffs' is a foreign concept in some states. It seems to me that would solve a lot of issues in a lot of sports...
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:45 am
by alcloseshaver
MrBoDangles wrote:alcloseshaver wrote:Of note the MSHSL general assembly did vote today to change the way they count coops. 100% of the largest school and 50% of the others.
This would send MAML and many others back where they belong.. But why make these rules when they don't follow their old rules? Will the high school league actually follow these rules?
Book smarts.. With no common sense. No, it actually brings them closer to being able to go A. Only have to use 50% of the coops.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:13 am
by SCBlueLiner
I like the 2 Class system, but would be open to going back to one class. 3 classes? No way.
I realize there has been a lot of discussion regarding the disparity in quality between regions but I will say that, since I follow the youth hockey scene, that there are some class A youth programs in the south that are building and improving. Give them some more time. Getting to the X recently has been a shot in the arm for some of these programs and who knows what they or their rivals will deliver in the next decade.
Teams and programs come and go, trying to constantly "fix" the system to what is currently happening is a recipe for future disaster. As it stands now there is a pathway for every school in the state to get to State. It is up to the local communities, the local youth hockey associations and the high school, whether they want to seize upon that opportunity and improve themselves into a contender on the State level in their class. Or maybe they are happy being a football school or basketball school.
Ain't broke, don't fix it.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:23 am
by zooomx
So, if I got this right, we have about 160 teams in the state? With 2 classes, 1 out of 10 teams goes to state. In a 3 class tournament, 1 of 6 or 7 would go to state. I think 1 out of 10 is as easy as it should get.
Seems to me, the state tournament should be hard to achieve. Our section tournaments are well attended and dynamic on their own. In fact, I would argue that most of our section tournaments rival many other state tournaments in terms of attendance and excitement.
I get the angst about privates and the Hermantowns, but overall, I do not think the system is broken. Look at 6A. Yes, we have St. Cloud Cathedral which is private and benefits from drawing talent from other programs. But they force the rest of us to "up our game" at the youth level. We need to grow our youth programs and feed more quality athletes to the high school team. Sartell and Alexandria have stepped it up. Little Falls and Fergus Falls seem to be as well.
I don't begrudge the Lakevilles and Edinas of the world for their success. It didn't happen by accident. Strong programs and hockey cultures are built and they reap the rewards of that hard work. Yes, some of us have harder roads to travel to find that success, but going to state should not be easy.
And Recruiting... it seems to me that the "recruiting" issue is really a parent issue. We are always going to have certain parents that feel that their player is too "special" to play on his/her hometown team. The parents are out looking for greener grass. If their player is not "special" enough for juniors or the USNDT, they look to private schools or open enrolling to a legacy public school. I would bet that most "recruiting" conversations are instigated by the parents and not the coach. "Special" players who stay with their high school team, most likely have parents who honor and cherish their hometown hockey culture or team, or are grounded enough to think family first. "Special" players who go private are often the result of parents who feel their kid is too good to be surrounded by "mediocre" local talent. Of course, there are others who possible move on because academics or such, but I think mostly, it is a parent problem, not a recruiting problem.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:31 am
by zooomx
SCBlueLiner wrote:I like the 2 Class system, but would be open to going back to one class. 3 classes? No way.
I realize there has been a lot of discussion regarding the disparity in quality between regions but I will say that, since I follow the youth hockey scene, that there are some class A youth programs in the south that are building and improving. Give them some more time. Getting to the X recently has been a shot in the arm for some of these programs and who knows what they or their rivals will deliver in the next decade.
Teams and programs come and go, trying to constantly "fix" the system to what is currently happening is a recipe for future disaster. As it stands now there is a pathway for every school in the state to get to State. It is up to the local communities, the local youth hockey associations and the high school, whether they want to seize upon that opportunity and improve themselves into a contender on the State level in their class. Or maybe they are happy being a football school or basketball school.
Ain't broke, don't fix it.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:51 pm
by Green and White Fan
You are probably right that the high school league will decide based on money, until they totally wreck things. Individual schools need to make decisions on what is best for their kids and district. If it comes down to money for schools, then ones like Roseau definitely should play A hockey.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:12 pm
by MrBoDangles
alcloseshaver wrote:MrBoDangles wrote:alcloseshaver wrote:Of note the MSHSL general assembly did vote today to change the way they count coops. 100% of the largest school and 50% of the others.
This would send MAML and many others back where they belong.. But why make these rules when they don't follow their old rules? Will the high school league actually follow these rules?
Book smarts.. With no common sense. No, it actually brings them closer to being able to go A. Only have to use 50% of the coops. So, close, (1,450) does get the cigar?? Or do the numbers not matter again? Yes?
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:33 pm
by kniven
Hermit wrote:It seems to me like the problem could be fixed if Class AA schools would quit scheduling so many games with the top Class A schools. What do Class AA schools get out of these games?
Therefore if a Class A school wants to challenge themselves, they need to opt up to do so as opposed to just testing the AA waters in the regular season knowing they can always fall back on getting to experience the State Tournament if things don't work out for them at AA
I totally agree 100%!!!
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:59 pm
by zamboniexhaustinhaler
Green and White Fan wrote:You are probably right that the high school league will decide based on money, until they totally wreck things. Individual schools need to make decisions on what is best for their kids and district. If it comes down to money for schools, then ones like Roseau definitely should play A hockey.
*Every* decision anywhere is based on money, from town to federal govt and everything in between.
Social programs, wars, local school decisions.
Everything has money at the root of the decision, no matter any feel good pr propaganda put out about subject x.
I wish Roseau's program all the best in the future, as I have nothing but respect for it.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:32 pm
by goldy313
zamboniexhaustinhaler wrote:
Any changes made will be made on the same thing as ever; what will generate the most money.
Period.
If there's any changes, the usual "This is best for (kids, hockey, whatever)" smoke screen will be announced.
But it's about money.
It always is.
You don't have s very good knowledge of high school sports if you truly believe that.
Since going to two classes tv revenue is down, reimbursement to schools involved has at least doubled. If it was about money the MSHSL would have abandoned St. Paul from the very beginning of A tournament for St. Cloud or Mariucci. The AA tournament would be at the Target Center. That's just hockey, and I will leave the greedy Wild out of it.
Basketball used to fill Williams Arena for every session, now they don't even open the upper deck until Saturday evening. Wrestling would nearly fill the Civic Center for the championship session, now maybe 60% full. More classes has never been about money.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:52 pm
by zamboniexhaustinhaler
goldy313 wrote:zamboniexhaustinhaler wrote:
Any changes made will be made on the same thing as ever; what will generate the most money.
Period.
If there's any changes, the usual "This is best for (kids, hockey, whatever)" smoke screen will be announced.
But it's about money.
It always is.
You don't have s very good knowledge of high school sports if you truly believe that.
Since going to two classes tv revenue is down, reimbursement to schools involved has at least doubled. If it was about money the MSHSL would have abandoned St. Paul from the very beginning of A tournament for St. Cloud or Mariucci. The AA tournament would be at the Target Center. That's just hockey, and I will leave the greedy Wild out of it.
Basketball used to fill Williams Arena for every session, now they don't even open the upper deck until Saturday evening. Wrestling would nearly fill the Civic Center for the championship session, now maybe 60% full. More classes has never been about money.
Whatever you say ace.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:45 pm
by goldy313
You can look it up, it's public information. Just google 2014 MSHSL annual report.....or whatever year you want.
Reimbursement no longer exists, they don't have the money.
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:15 am
by zamboniexhaustinhaler
goldy313 wrote:You can look it up, it's public information. Just google 2014 MSHSL annual report.....or whatever year you want.
Reimbursement no longer exists, they don't have the money.
Never said your info. was or wasn't correct