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Anyone else read Shaver's article in Let's Play Hockey?

I didn't know he was such a crybaby.

Look at me, look at all the great things I have done, and now I can't ahve my ice.

He makes us old guys look bad.


On behalf of old guys everywhere, forgive us.
We do not volunteer to get back what we feel is due us.
I am truely sorry.


edit:
11/21/07 page 17
They Stole My Ice! article

I wish he had used his position and influence to call for more rinks instead of bashing. Maybe make the call for Apple Valley to do what St Paul did by building 3 artificially frozen outdoor rinks. He wrote the St Paul article just the week before!

The process of how the ice time was taken away was probably insensitive, but he did state that Apple Valley association had the first claim on the ice. He could have been grateful for the 10+ years he was able to use it as a second position priority holder.

There never is enough ice.

While we are at it don't forget that the supposed bad guys in Wally's story, Apple Valley Hockey Association, are also big crybabies whining about the lack of primetime ice that they get at a neighboring city rink, Burnsville. They get on the news every chance they can to cry about how unfair it is that they can't get 'primetime' ice hours at Burnsville (they get a bunch of ice but it isn't what THEY call primetime). They created a special website to whine about being treated like a 2nd class group and are even trying to sue the city of Burnsville to demand more primetime ice because they have some members that live in Burnsville who have chosen to play youth hockey with Apple Valley.

Now, the AVHA is using their clout with the city of Apple Valley to take away primetime ice from a so-called 2nd position group. I don't blame them at all and, in fact, I think it makes a lot of sense for them to get back the icetime but I hope they see the irony in what they are doing.

I feel sorry for him. I am sure our writer friend was in great pain while writing this. Or perhaps someone was dragging finger nails across the chalk board. Definitely he was uncomfortable...or failed to proof it in the morning.

I hope his math teacher doesn't read this : I think coaching all the way thru Mite, Squirts, Pee Wees and Bantams is more than 5 years. Is it odd that LPH allowed a article that in a sense is negative towards youth hockey, their own target market. Will a response from LPS follow?

I like the part " for those that disagree....whaaaaa" Between the pipes you find out he only lost the 8:00 pm hour. I would expect our hockey board to take any prime hour they are entitled to. I would be upset if I had to drive to coach in Stillwater at 9:45 pm, only to find we could have had the 8:00 in RedWing, and not drive.

Good for the associations that are looking out for their members.

shoot to thrill wrote:While we are at it don't forget that the supposed bad guys in Wally's story, Apple Valley Hockey Association, are also big crybabies whining about the lack of primetime ice that they get at a neighboring city rink, Burnsville. They get on the news every chance they can to cry about how unfair it is that they can't get 'primetime' ice hours at Burnsville (they get a bunch of ice but it isn't what THEY call primetime). They created a special website to whine about being treated like a 2nd class group and are even trying to sue the city of Burnsville to demand more primetime ice because they have some members that live in Burnsville who have chosen to play youth hockey with Apple Valley.

Now, the AVHA is using their clout with the city of Apple Valley to take away primetime ice from a so-called 2nd position group. I don't blame them at all and, in fact, I think it makes a lot of sense for them to get back the icetime but I hope they see the irony in what they are doing.

Do you not understand MH affiliate agreements? You don't choose which association you play in. It is done by what school district you live in.

City subsidized rinks need to represent all citizens of their city. Not just those who live in the boundaries of a similar named school district. I hope that a fair ruling can come out of the mess.

If you want to see 1 side of it.
http://playfairburnsville.org/

There is never enough ice.

I read this article and couldn't help but to think--these dumbasses are effectively alienating their target audience by publishing this kind of thing!

Spin-

I agree that a city should represent ALL of the citizens and not just a few. As a taxpayer in Burnsville, I would applaud the city for making sure they do the best they can to have their rink bring in as much revenue as possible including setting up arrangements with groups who can help generate year round revenue especially during the off-season. Burnsville was fortunate enough to land such a client years ago when it was able to get the south metro figure skating club to set up a year round contract to rent ice in their facility. That was a long time ago before the citizens of Apple Valley decided to build another High School and start another hockey program (Eastview) without building any additional rinks...not very good planning on their part.

More recently, Burnsville set up an arrangment with a curling club to use additional ice that was hard to sell. Both of these clubs do not necessarily have a tremendous amount of residents but both of them do bring in a lot of revenue when other people do not want the ice. The figure skating club has been around for years and done nothing but be a good loyal customer that has helped generate revenue for the city of Burnsville. That year round revenue helps lower the use of taxpayer money to fund the ice rink (something that I think ALL citizens of Burnsville would like).

The AVHA feels that all of that is meaningless and that they should get their ice EVEN if it means that the figure skating club will likely go elsewhere. The AVHA doesn't care about the revenue that would be lost: all they want is to get more prime ice during the busy winter months. Don't forget that they are already getting a lot of ice from Burnsville on a preferential basis over any other city. The few Apple Valley hockey families who want to drive the figure skating club out of Burnsville so they can get more ice are not thinking about ALL of the citizens of Burnsville, they are thinking about a select few; themselves.

FYI - I am quite familiar with MH rules. I also know that District 6 has their own set of rules regarding players being waived into other District 6 associations and that they have been willing in the past to make exceptions if both associations are in agreement. These exceptions have been used numerous times in the past by residents of Burnsville who happen to be in the boundaries of a neighboring school district. This isn't High School hockey, it is youth hockey so the waiver rules aren't quite so strict.

My point here wasn't to argue for or against the merits of their case but only to note the irony of what they are doing in this case mentioned in LPH. Your comments and posting of their website has made me at least mention the other side of the story.

If Wally's faux Candian accent wasn't enough proof, we now know what a phony this guy really is. Hey Wally, take a hike eh?

Each sentence into Wally's article I grew more and more angry. One week he is talking about how MN Hockey and its subsidiaries (associations) can grow the sport and the next week he is whining about this self serving "issue". Doug Johnson should be ashamed he allowed this into hiw paper. I picked up the most recent issue and for the first time I considered leaving it in the arena.
ADVERTISERS take notice. Wally should be fired for using his position to publish such a negative article. It should be known that I have absolutely no ties to B-ville or Apple Valley. I reside in the north metro and rarely cross the river.....
The thing that disappointed me most in the article was the sense of entitlement Wally feels he deserves for coaching youht hockey. Coaching is a priviledge it is not a right. Coaching should not be viewed as a way to sink your claws into an associations or arenas ice schedule or means for any other favors. I also strongly believe that coaching should not be considered a charitable act, in any way. To be a good coach you should be doing it out of passion for the game. No real coach would/should hold an association ransom over coaching duty. If you do, you are a phony.
I am a coach, a senior mens league player, association board member, played every level of hockey since I was 4.
I have been involved in so many meetings regarding our local association I cannot even count them. Why do I do it? FOR THE KIDS.
I love this game so much that I make sacrifices in my life. I expect to have later Men's league games. Do you expect associations to give 9 pm ice to mites? Squirts? One week you are writing about growing the sport and the next you are fighting against that very cause for self serving reasons.
People like Wally are responsible for giving board members bad reputations. As a board member I go out of my way to stay as neutral as possible in attempts to be fair to all sides. His actions were self serving. What else can we assume Wally did when in a board position to favor his personal/childs situation. His integrity is lost from this point forward in my opinion.
If Jeff Dubay can be let go from FSN ( allbeit for a short while) for siding against an official, Wally deserves at least the same. In this case his actions attacked youth hockey. What's next Wally? Gonna go start a fight with a Board member because something did not go your way?

Wally should be ashamed of himself. It IS all about the kids, Wally. Play your senior games on two different nights at 9:45, or during the offseason. I've lost a lot of respect for the man.

The worst part is that Wally's a hack. Never afraid to use a little extra stick, take the occasional cheap shot. Having played against the man a few times, I would hate to think he's coaching that style to his kids.

shoot to thrill wrote:Spin-

I agree that a city should represent ALL of the citizens and not just a few. As a taxpayer in Burnsville, I would applaud the city for making sure they do the best they can to have their rink bring in as much revenue as possible including setting up arrangements with groups who can help generate year round revenue especially during the off-season. Burnsville was fortunate enough to land such a client years ago when it was able to get the south metro figure skating club to set up a year round contract to rent ice in their facility. That was a long time ago before the citizens of Apple Valley decided to build another High School and start another hockey program (Eastview) without building any additional rinks...not very good planning on their part.

More recently, Burnsville set up an arrangment with a curling club to use additional ice that was hard to sell. Both of these clubs do not necessarily have a tremendous amount of residents but both of them do bring in a lot of revenue when other people do not want the ice. The figure skating club has been around for years and done nothing but be a good loyal customer that has helped generate revenue for the city of Burnsville. That year round revenue helps lower the use of taxpayer money to fund the ice rink (something that I think ALL citizens of Burnsville would like).

The AVHA feels that all of that is meaningless and that they should get their ice EVEN if it means that the figure skating club will likely go elsewhere. The AVHA doesn't care about the revenue that would be lost: all they want is to get more prime ice during the busy winter months. Don't forget that they are already getting a lot of ice from Burnsville on a preferential basis over any other city. The few Apple Valley hockey families who want to drive the figure skating club out of Burnsville so they can get more ice are not thinking about ALL of the citizens of Burnsville, they are thinking about a select few; themselves.

FYI - I am quite familiar with MH rules. I also know that District 6 has their own set of rules regarding players being waived into other District 6 associations and that they have been willing in the past to make exceptions if both associations are in agreement. These exceptions have been used numerous times in the past by residents of Burnsville who happen to be in the boundaries of a neighboring school district. This isn't High School hockey, it is youth hockey so the waiver rules aren't quite so strict.

My point here wasn't to argue for or against the merits of their case but only to note the irony of what they are doing in this case mentioned in LPH. Your comments and posting of their website has made me at least mention the other side of the story.

Great post. I am sending you a pm on some of your points.

RE: the choosing of where to play. I don't know D6's, AV's, or B'vlle's waiving policy. However, I do know that my D6 association has a strict 'no waiving out' policy. I also believe that most families are not familiar with the possibility of waiving or do not want to play outside their child's neighborhood / friends. How many exceptions are made by D6? How likely is it to get both associations to agree to a waiver when they are warring? I don't think there is much choice for families.

Wally, Wally, Wally...
Where did we go wrong with you? If you were so instrumental in getting the arenas built you must have been fully aware of the fact that there was this little aggreement inked into the contract that gave AV the right to the time. You must have been fully aware of this condition, I would assume that you actually thought you had pulled off quite the coo by getting the ice time in the first place...Instead of pissing and moaning about how unfairly you were treated, you should be taking the time to say Thank You for all of the years of flexibility that was aforded to you. Instead of giving Thanks you excise your rights of freedom of speech to spew your crap. Now you have a legion of pissed off readers of LPH venting their frustrations and disbelief with you and Doug. The on line damage that you are receiving isn’t as easily dismissed as throwing away a newspaper. This stuff is going to stick and continue to come up over and over. Wally, timing is everything just like the 15 years ago when you were given the Privilege (and most likely acknowledgment) to use the block of ice that you are referring to, there was no internet. Had you written such a pathetic article 15 years ago, the rumors would have floated around for a couple weeks, maybe a season but then it would fade…Not today, this topic will get wide spread exposure and it won’t be long until you have either written a retraction, or will not be writing in LPH.

Bummer Dude…

I think it was one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. I cant believe that LPH would put it in its paper. They should both be ashamed about their actions. I know Wally is upset but taking it public and whinning like little baby. I did this.....I am great.....I built this.....I am sure that Apple Valley appreciates all that you have done. It is too bad that you didnt get your way. It is quite apparent that Apple Valley needs the time for the youth program and I would expect that if your child was still in the youth program you would be right there telling the older gentleman that we have to move you to a later spot. Quit whinning and start winning.

Good Luck

Does any one have an electronic version of the article?

I'd love to read it

Got it thanks!

Is it possible that someone could post the article in this forum?

Wow, I guess he can't have an opinion. He was not reporting on a story, it was an editorial. He can say what he wants. He writes for a free paper (unless you want it delivered to your house). How many of you pay for LPH? I thought the article was kinda funny. Yes a little whinny too. But as Shott to thrill states, AVHA Is doing the same thing. they want only prime time ice from Burnsville.

http://service.govdelivery.com/docs/MNB ... 713_en.doc

They turned away some hours (more than they took back from Wally's league) and are suing for reimbursement, because the Ice Coordinator has to find ice elsewhere. My association has ice at 4 different rinks. All teams have at least one practice before shcool. the older teams sometimes start after 9:00 PM. That's just a fact of life when you are a hockey player.

The big villian in all this is the City of Apple Valley. 8 High School teams, 50 youth teams (18 AVHA , 32 Eastview) is a bit much for two sheets of ice. The reason AVHA is suing the City of Burnsville, is the City Of Apple Valley redid the ice agreements for EHA and AVHA, basing the icetime on residency in AV. Eastview has more AV residents than AVHA does. so the distribution went from 60-40 to 40-60. Orginally they thought that policy was unfair, stating that the city should base the icetime on size of assoc, not residency. AV said "No sir". So the AVHA changed their tune, and went after ice in Burnsville and Lakeville. Citing their new favorite policy of residency first.

In the end, it will all be the way it will be. Go play outside, leave the kids alone, have fun. But I still love the last line of the article. "Go stick your toungue on a metal pole in the middle of January"

Complaining is the right of every American, if you don't think so, read almost every post on this website. Another great thing about America, you don't have to read any of this. Don't read his columns, don't read LPH, Don't read the Star and Tribune, don't read this post (too late if you got this far). I suppose, complaining about the complainers goes against what I just said, but too bad.

outside_observer wrote:Wow, I guess he can't have an opinion. He was not reporting on a story, it was an editorial. He can say what he wants. He writes for a free paper (unless you want it delivered to your house). How many of you pay for LPH? I thought the article was kinda funny. Yes a little whinny too. But as Shott to thrill states, AVHA Is doing the same thing. they want only prime time ice from Burnsville.

http://service.govdelivery.com/docs/MNB ... 713_en.doc

They turned away some hours (more than they took back from Wally's league) and are suing for reimbursement, because the Ice Coordinator has to find ice elsewhere. My association has ice at 4 different rinks. All teams have at least one practice before shcool. the older teams sometimes start after 9:00 PM. That's just a fact of life when you are a hockey player.

The big villian in all this is the City of Apple Valley. 8 High School teams, 50 youth teams (18 AVHA , 32 Eastview) is a bit much for two sheets of ice. The reason AVHA is suing the City of Burnsville, is the City Of Apple Valley redid the ice agreements for EHA and AVHA, basing the icetime on residency in AV. Eastview has more AV residents than AVHA does. so the distribution went from 60-40 to 40-60. Orginally they thought that policy was unfair, stating that the city should base the icetime on size of assoc, not residency. AV said "No sir". So the AVHA changed their tune, and went after ice in Burnsville and Lakeville. Citing their new favorite policy of residency first.

In the end, it will all be the way it will be. Go play outside, leave the kids alone, have fun. But I still love the last line of the article. "Go stick your toungue on a metal pole in the middle of January"

Complaining is the right of every American, if you don't think so, read almost every post on this website. Another great thing about America, you don't have to read any of this. Don't read his columns, don't read LPH, Don't read the Star and Tribune, don't read this post (too late if you got this far). I suppose, complaining about the complainers goes against what I just said, but too bad.

Dang, you should have made that the first line.

LPH's editorial page is where????
I see nothing on the article claiming it to be his opinion.
As a MN Hockey board member at times I have to 'get after' local associations, teams, coaches....
I do not make it public and for 'crimes' more grievous than what Wally is claiming.
But part of my responsibility is to stand by local associations and volunteers doing their job. This is one such time.
There maybe two sides to the argument, but this is NOT how it should be done.

It was kind of long, sorry but "This is MY opinion"
most of the articles in there are editorials. They are opinions.
Blatherwick, writes his opinion. Nobody blasts him. Kurrt, La Prade, Shaver, all write opinions. Yes he is whinning about it. So what.
I don't like his fake accent either. there is an opinion.
I would rather read that article, than read about how Edina Picked their Peewee A team and here they are. Or a 3 page article detailing every shift of a Squirt game.
I agree Wally is a whiner, but it was funny.

outside_observer wrote:It was kind of long, sorry but "This is MY opinion"
most of the articles in there are editorials. They are opinions.
Blatherwick, writes his opinion. Nobody blasts him. Kurrt, La Prade, Shaver, all write opinions. Yes he is whinning about it. So what.
I don't like his fake accent either. there is an opinion.
I would rather read that article, than read about how Edina Picked their Peewee A team and here they are. Or a 3 page article detailing every shift of a Squirt game.
I agree Wally is a whiner, but it was funny.

I have responded to some of Jack's stuff. In writing back to LPH.

But at least you have come to the proper conclusion.

good day sir

while we must be careful not to confuse confusion with fact, a internet message board can provide incorrect information.

http://service.govdelivery.com/docs/MNB ... 713_en.doc

What this does not say is what the offer contained : in laymans terms
-The offer to the district 196 residents of Burnsville was they could have x number of hours this season, but they could not use their RESIDENCY in a quest to gain ice use in future years.... This was a one year deal.-


"They turned away some hours (more than they took back from Wally's league) and are suing for reimbursement" FACT: The lawsuit is for their equal access to public facilities that they paid and pay for. They are part of over 22% of the population before the current members began this they were receive 16 hrs a month.. Sunday morning 1 hr, Tuesday morning 1 hr, and Wednesday evening 2 hrs. In all honesty do you not believe they should receive to choose from 20% of the available hrs offered to all user groups considered priority users? 20% of those hrs, does not always equal just the hrs, others do not want. We know why ice is available on Wednesday nights in some cities. The hours they turned back fact were hrs they could not use. Keep in mind the offer by the city involved them giving up their ability to use residency ever again... would you? If so please don't run for any public office.


"The big villian in all this is the City of Apple Valley."
As residents we all can complain about our city, that is why we have elected officials. However the city of AV is not a growning community, but a aging community. It can get fairly difficult at this point. I wonder about the city of Savage sometimes... not a bad deal. The residents play for the Prior Lake community or Burnsville.. Seems like they should consider providing to the community.

"8 High School teams, 50 youth teams (18 AVHA , 32 Eastview) "
Your numbers are off, you should state the correct number of teams or none at all.

The reason AVHA is suing the City of Burnsville, is the City Of Apple Valley redid the ice agreements for EHA and AVHA, basing the icetime on residency in AV. Eastview has more AV residents than AVHA does. so the distribution went from 60-40 to 40-60. Orginally they thought that policy was unfair, stating that the city should base the icetime on size of assoc, not residency"

Fact : the policy has existed since the inception of Eastview high school. That is a false statement about being rewritten. The policy was enforced that year, but not in previous year.

Your quote about "originally they thought the policy was unfair" is accurate. It struck at the beginning of the hockey season, poof ice availability is down 10%. I have been told that the majority of both boards had no idea it existed. Neither did they know Eastview Assoc, started with money to begin the process of building a rink.
Upon meeting with the city of Apple Valley and Eastview they understood what it meant, and has always been written. Ice is allocated based upon the numbers of city residents that are part of your association.

This should be understood : : City of Burnsville claims that many cities do not have a residency policy on ice time. They have used this in their public statement. I have a problem with this, public money was spent on a 2nd grade survey. And they have mislead the public. The survery was done by e-mail, and results kept on what is equivalent to a napkin. It was sent out by the arena manager to other managers, and was selected.

The cities used these arenas in their findings : Bloomington, Richfield. etc.
What it did not provide was the arenas they used for their claim: Were either private < Breck > or city and school district all in the same <Bloomington>. What it did not provide that in this area alone : Eagan, Lakeville, Apple Valley all use residency upon allocating and identifying user groups.

After ice in "Burnsville and Lakeville. Citing their new favorite policy of residency first" The city must present all information requested by the members suing their city. Their is documentation from the city that members of the community have been trying to get this changed to equallity for over 20 years. You maybe able to do a search on your own.
By the way some of the parties involved were Lakeville school district members residing in Burnsville, another 12%. I have found no record of AVHA going after ice in Lakeville. I am not sure if they use those arenas or not. My information shows the district 196 makes up about 12,000 residents in Lakeville, Farmington School district makes up about 8,000.. with much more growth to follow in the city of Lakeville but residing in school district (192? Farmington) Perhaps both parties should inquire.

Your statements are your opinion and should be stated as fact. I feel this one you may not have meant : "the older teams sometimes start after 9:00 PM. That's just a fact of life when you are a hockey player" The articel was Wally Shaver complaining over losing "HIS" ice. It was not his ice, you said the AVHA complained when the policy was enforced, well Wally was getting ice that was written for youth hockey to use. FACT.
Do you believe that parents and children should just say " oh well" It is not ok for them to skate at 9:30 pm when the city has a written policy that the youth associations get the ice at that hour.

Finally Wally writes that it was taken by AV. I have never seen it written that Eastview stole AV's ice. In fact, it is just the opposite they are working with each other. It is a city policy. The members of AV hockey did discover that the city was not following its own policy, and this 1 hr of ice on Wednesday's was to go into the pool of hrs to be split by the assocations. I am told Eastview obliged to have AV skate on this hr during the year. You found it, you can use it. It is at 8:15 pm during the week, that is about as 'PRIME" as it gets.

AV members do need ice, they are currently getting under 38% of it at AV for youth hockey during the season. I called a member of their association today. They had one team practicing at 4:10 in Wakota, the kids get off the bus around 3:25. Despite the snowstorm, they managed to have only 2 absences and got 45 minutes of practicing in.. I hope they still aren't trying to get home.

It will be interesting to see if other cities residents begin to understand they are paying a hefty tax to their city but are not being able to use those facilities because of the school district they reside in.

America : never let go of your human right

RETIRED-

I have a group of 40 buddies that all live in Burnsville and love to play hockey. We decided we want to play hockey inside because it's gettin' kinda cold outside and it's a bummer having to shovel the ice after it snows.

Anyway, we are 100% Burnsville residents so we should get 1st dibs on all the ice. No one I have heard of involved in the ice debate in Burnsville has a higher percentage of residents than us so they can get in line behind us. We'd like only prime time hours because we don't like to stay up to late and it isn't convenient to start to early after work.

Your logic is absurd. If AV is successful, they will open the door to any other organization to try and claim a higher residency and therefore take a share of the ice. Someone could start there own 'inhouse' league using only Burnsville residents and claim that they should get the ice. There has to be some loyalty to long term customers if you want to try and make a rink pay for itself and keep the taxpayers from having to cover too many expenses. Burnsville is very successful as a rink and uses very little taxpayer money because of how it is run.

AV needs to step up and build a rink and quit whining. Poor city planning should not be spread over to other cities just because you can't convince your own city of the need for another rink.

As far as Wally is concerned, I agree that he is whiney but I'll bet money that years ago AV didn't want that ice because Wednesday night in their minds was NOT prime ice (it's a church night). So they gave it to Wally and now they decided they want it back because they decided now that it's better than going somewhere else to practice. All Wally is saying is that he has been a good loyal customer to the rink and should have been able to keep his icetime. His problem is he obviously wrote the article angry and he embarrassed himself with how he presented his argument.