HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

There were two games in central Minnesota last Thursday where a player received five penalties in a game.

In St. Cloud Cathedral's game vs. Sartell, SCC's TJ Poganski was assessed five penalties. On the fifth penalty, he was ejected from the game and forced to sit out Cathedral's next game.

The scoresheet is available here...http://www.rinkwriter.com/sartell/sartell_07_11_29.pdf

That same night, in Apollo's game against Becker. Apollo's Brent Butkowski was given five penalties. He was not ejected from the game and there was no mention of having to sit out for the next game.

The scoresheet is available here...http://www.rinkwriter.com/mac/apollo_07_11_29.pdf

I talked to referee Brian Deyak, who has a good grasp of the rules as he has been an official in the state tourney for a couple years now. He was one of the referees for the Cathedral/Sartell game. He said, as already mentioned, because a player got five penalties in one game, he is ejected from that game and the next game.

Can anyone find the ruling on this? Either Butkowski should have to sit out or Poganski should not.

Rule 404
(d) Any player (Midget age classification and below, including
High School and Senior Women) who incurs five penalties in
the same game shall be assessed a game misconduct penalty.
From the USA hockey rule book.


Mr.Butkowski should not be playing, and should have been giving the Misconduct.

Thanks, CNT.

Another thought from a coaching perspective....if someone's taking 5 penalties in a game what the heck are they doing on the ice anyway??
To me your hurting the team more when you're there, then while serving the suspension

CNT, check out those scoresheets. Looks to me like the whistles were permanently attached to their mouth.

I know Brent Butkowski's interference penalty was bogus. He was getting run by a kid and was just defending himself. In doing so, he put the kid on his backside.

Can't Never Tried wrote:Rule 404
(d) Any player (Midget age classification and below, including
High School and Senior Women) who incurs five penalties in
the same game shall be assessed a game misconduct penalty.
From the USA hockey rule book.


Mr.Butkowski should not be playing, and should have been giving the Misconduct.

High school does not use the USA Hockey rule book.

But the National Federation rule is exactly the same.
They do not use the 15 penalty rule for the coach.

Enough of you amateurs trying to tell us, let's let BIAFP interpret the correct rule/infraction for the board. Bader, what's the buzz?

AY

elliott70 wrote:

Can't Never Tried wrote:Rule 404
(d) Any player (Midget age classification and below, including
High School and Senior Women) who incurs five penalties in
the same game shall be assessed a game misconduct penalty.
From the USA hockey rule book.


Mr.Butkowski should not be playing, and should have been giving the Misconduct.

High school does not use the USA Hockey rule book.

But the National Federation rule is exactly the same.
They do not use the 15 penalty rule for the coach.

No I don't think they do either, but I do think the same rule applies to the MSHSL. What I think may have happened is when the player received his fifth penalty, it was just simply overlooked. Maybe the scorekeeper, three referees, and all coaches (from both teams) all failed to notice. Worse yet, maybe the offending player's coach did notice, but failed to mention it to the ref (who would mention it, i suppose...). Either way... this kid got away with one!

Can't Never Tried wrote:Another thought from a coaching perspective....if someone's taking 5 penalties in a game what the heck are they doing on the ice anyway??
To me your hurting the team more when you're there, then while serving the suspension

If the player has 4 penalties, the coach should not put him on the ice;
unless 1)winning the game is extremely important, 2)the next game is not, or 3)the kid is expendable.

Only time I can think of in the 3 cases would be 1) playoffs, 2) & 3) the coach wants the kid to pick up the 5th so he sits and learns a lesson.

George Blanda wrote:CNT, check out those scoresheets. Looks to me like the whistles were permanently attached to their mouth.

I know Brent Butkowski's interference penalty was bogus. He was getting run by a kid and was just defending himself. In doing so, he put the kid on his backside.

Geez !!! especially the SCC game, you boy's that rough up there in ST. Cloud or what??
I mean 23 seconds in and ya got 3 penalties already
Can hardly wait until the GCC tourney this year, I hope them refs got their jollies out by then or it's gonna be all special teams hockey

AngusYoung wrote:Enough of you amateurs trying to tell us, let's let BIAFP interpret the correct rule/infraction for the board. Bader, what's the buzz?

AY

They don't use that rule in the WCHA.

Stateofhockey07 wrote:

elliott70 wrote:

Can't Never Tried wrote:Rule 404
(d) Any player (Midget age classification and below, including
High School and Senior Women) who incurs five penalties in
the same game shall be assessed a game misconduct penalty.
From the USA hockey rule book.


Mr.Butkowski should not be playing, and should have been giving the Misconduct.

High school does not use the USA Hockey rule book.

But the National Federation rule is exactly the same.
They do not use the 15 penalty rule for the coach.

No I don't think they do either, but I do think the same rule applies to the MSHSL. What I think may have happened is when the player received his fifth penalty, it was just simply overlooked. Maybe the scorekeeper, three referees, and all coaches (from both teams) all failed to notice. Worse yet, maybe the offending player's coach did notice, but failed to mention it to the ref (who would mention it, i suppose...). Either way... this kid got away with one!

I don't know that he "got away with one" - if he steps on the ice in the next game and the opposing coach reports it, the game may very well be forfeited for the use of an ineligible player.

elliott70 wrote:

AngusYoung wrote:Enough of you amateurs trying to tell us, let's let BIAFP interpret the correct rule/infraction for the board. Bader, what's the buzz?

AY

They don't use that rule in the WCHA.

I guess I never saw him patrolling the ice during the State HS Tourney.

AY

AngusYoung wrote:

elliott70 wrote:

AngusYoung wrote:Enough of you amateurs trying to tell us, let's let BIAFP interpret the correct rule/infraction for the board. Bader, what's the buzz?

AY

They don't use that rule in the WCHA.

I guess I never saw him patrolling the ice during the State HS Tourney.

AY

Yeah, that was Tom or maybe Scott.

suntzu wrote:

Stateofhockey07 wrote:

elliott70 wrote: High school does not use the USA Hockey rule book.

But the National Federation rule is exactly the same.
They do not use the 15 penalty rule for the coach.

No I don't think they do either, but I do think the same rule applies to the MSHSL. What I think may have happened is when the player received his fifth penalty, it was just simply overlooked. Maybe the scorekeeper, three referees, and all coaches (from both teams) all failed to notice. Worse yet, maybe the offending player's coach did notice, but failed to mention it to the ref (who would mention it, i suppose...). Either way... this kid got away with one!

I don't know that he "got away with one" - if he steps on the ice in the next game and the opposing coach reports it, the game may very well be forfeited for the use of an ineligible player.

Again I'm not an official but I believe that the official has to make eye contact and explain to the player that he is being given the game mis conduct. I believe if that does not happen and it is not noted on the score sheet it can't be used after the fact...unless it gets overruled and the player and coach are informed...in otherwords no suprises.

See page 35
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/offjudge/200 ... Manual.pdf

Can't Never Tried wrote:

George Blanda wrote:CNT, check out those scoresheets. Looks to me like the whistles were permanently attached to their mouth.

I know Brent Butkowski's interference penalty was bogus. He was getting run by a kid and was just defending himself. In doing so, he put the kid on his backside.

Geez !!! especially the SCC game, you boy's that rough up there in ST. Cloud or what??
I mean 23 seconds in and ya got 3 penalties already
Can hardly wait until the GCC tourney this year, I hope them refs got their jollies out by then or it's gonna be all special teams hockey

one kid got a 2fer on the same play 23 seconds in .....boy somebody had a bad day at the office before going out to referee. Hope the dog was hiding when he got home so it didn't get kicked

The official has to file a report with the MSHSL detailing why the ejection occured - a fax of the score sheet with 5 minors on it is enough in this case. If the official doesn't report it the coach should not use the player but that's not always the case. It looks to me like the officials in the Apollo game screwed up, more likely the official scorekeeper should have told the officials that the player had 5 penalties if he didn't it's hard to expect an official to keep track of how many penalties each kid gets throughout a game.

elliott70 wrote:

AngusYoung wrote:

elliott70 wrote: They don't use that rule in the WCHA.

I guess I never saw him patrolling the ice during the State HS Tourney.

AY

Yeah, that was Tom or maybe Scott.

A fountain of misinformation again - you may wish to check with your buddies the Dow brothers on that assertion or any tournament program from say 1990-2002.

BTW - Goldy313 is correct on his above post.

AY

As Elliott stated above it was clearly a coaching staff error in both games. After the 4th penalty both team were up by 3 goals or more. There is no reason to put that player back on the ice unless you are not paying attention.

AngusYoung wrote:

elliott70 wrote:

AngusYoung wrote: I guess I never saw him patrolling the ice during the State HS Tourney.

AY

Yeah, that was Tom or maybe Scott.

A fountain of misinformation again - you may wish to check with your buddies the Dow brothers on that assertion or any tournament program from say 1990-2002.

BTW - Goldy313 is correct on his above post.

AY

Yes, I know the blonde wonder was there. Just pulling the leg....

2pipesnin wrote:As Elliott stated above it was clearly a coaching staff error in both games. After the 4th penalty both team were up by 3 goals or more. There is no reason to put that player back on the ice unless you are not paying attention.

Not clearly. But partially. How does one kid get five penalties in a single game?? That's just plain stupid play.

In the Apollo; that Brent was a quick worker getting 5 at 14:23 of the SECOND period, not a game!

Coach mistake I would say there being his first year.

Cathedral was with only 5 minutes left in the third.

Kind of looks like the coach did not need him (was Little Falls) and would be better off learning a lesson by sitting.
Will be interesting to watch left column on the RinkWriter sheets for these two thru the year?
HMMM? BOTH ARE SENIORS TOO?

That RinkWritter is sweet! This should be used thru out the state to pull up the information on all games.

Whoever said they wanted to follow Poganski and Butkowski...here is a fun stat for ya...

Butkowski played three total shifts tonight in a game against River Lakes and racked up 2 penalties.

George, how could the kid play if he was to be sitting out for the Five penalties?

So either there is no such rule?
Would this be a forfeit for Apollo for rules violation for the use of an ineligible player?

Stealth wrote:George, how could the kid play if he was to be sitting out for the Five penalties?

So either there is no such rule?
Would this be a forfeit for Apollo for rules violation for the use of an ineligible player?

He was allowed to play because he wasn't actually ejected from the first game and the referees from the game vs. Becker failed to file a report. For some reason, he was allowed to play.