HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

I have no opinion on wether or not St. Thomas Academay should be playing in class AA, however the article written in the Star Tribune brought up some interesting facts that suggest the system used to determine who is in class a and class aa is flawed. According to that article, if all teams in Minnesota played where they were put by the MSHSL, Class AA would be vastly Twin Cities area teams with the exception of Moorhead and the big Rochester Schools. No teams from the Iron Range, no teams from Northwestern Minnesota(if you don't consider Moorhead to be there). That is sad. How can we have a true state boys hockey tournement without Iron Range teams or Northern Minnesota for that matter???? The system neads to be fixed before we truly have the Twin Cities championship at the X to go along with the class A state tournement.

How can you fix it?

Teams that want to 'play with the big boys' can opt up and many do.

There are 7 opt-ups. I believe they are:

Duluth East
Cloquet
Grand Rapids
Hill-Murray
Benilde
CDH
Roseau

I'd love to see more northern teams opt up, but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen. When Duluth consolidates into 2 schools they will be forced to have 2 in AA.

Why can't teams opt down? Some of those first round sectionals are humiliating!!!!!

karl(east) wrote:There are 7 opt-ups. I believe they are:

Duluth East
Cloquet
Grand Rapids
Hill-Murray
Benilde
CDH
Roseau

I'd love to see more northern teams opt up, but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen. When Duluth consolidates into 2 schools they will be forced to have 2 in AA.

also holy angels

O-townClown wrote:How can you fix it?

Teams that want to 'play with the big boys' can opt up and many do.

Wouldn't it be sad if no one did opt up though???????
I don't know how you fix it. They came up with seeding the state tournement to fix a problem. Maybe they could have the biggest schools from different "regions" around the state to make up class aa instead of the biggest 64 schools in the whole state.......?????

Edit to earlier post: CDH is not an opt-up, AHA is.

Alexandria is the biggest A school at 1278.
Enrollments of the opt-ups:

Duluth East 1222
Cloquet+Esko+Carlton Coop 1208
Grand Rapids 1049
Hill 861
AHA 862
Benilde 873
Roseau 410

For your amusement:
[url]http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/enrollments07.asp[/url]

Do what the NCAA basketball does (pretty good tourney aye ?)
Take the top 64 teams in the state (how is the question) if you go by minnhock rankings Eagan would have been the last team in this year. Then make up 8 sections of 8. Keep it somewhat regionalized so there is not too much travel. Ahh some really interesting match ups now !
Take the rest of the teams (ranked 65+) and throw them into the tier 2 tourney.....what do you think ?

Dino wrote: Take the rest of the teams (ranked 65+) and throw them into the tier 2 tourney.....what do you think ?

Screw the rest of the teams. This aint mites...

Dino wrote:Do what the NCAA basketball does (pretty good tourney aye ?)
Take the top 64 teams in the state (how is the question) if you go by minnhock rankings Eagan would have been the last team in this year. Then make up 8 sections of 8. Keep it somewhat regionalized so there is not too much travel. Ahh some really interesting match ups now !
Take the rest of the teams (ranked 65+) and throw them into the tier 2 tourney.....what do you think ?

They tried this before and it was a total flop!

They should make a rule for the weaker programs who do play AA and cant compete to move down in class. Then have a claus in it to move them up should they start to improve. I just dont know how you are going to judge that. But there are some teams out there on the AA level that would have a hard time in class A and that isnt fair to them either.

How bout this?
-We allow as many teams as opt up to opt down.
-We allow teams to opt up for a single year.
As much as people are in denial about it, opting up is a huge commitment. Pretty sure you have to do it ahead of time and are committed for a while. Seeing Warroad and TG in AA in 2005 for example, would've been cool.

As much as people are in denial about it, opting up is a huge commitment. Pretty sure you have to do it ahead of time and are committed for a while. Seeing Warroad and TG in AA in 2005 for example, would've been cool.

Neither of those teams could have legitimately competed at the AA level.

how about this they make the teams sign up for A or AA and then the ones that don't make the tourney for like ten years move down if in AA, and after like 3 years the teams are forced up.

you cant fix this to be perfect

the closest way to be perfect would be if you had a 64 team tourney and took the top 64 teams no matter if they would be a or aa

Those teams couldn't have competed at the AA level?! That's a joke, right? Warroad tied Moorhead 1-1 during the season, Moorhead lost a close one (with debatable calls) 4-6 to AHA in the AA finals, and it took two OTs for Warroad to beat TG in the A finals (which means they won by only one goal).

Warroad and Moorhead would've been in the same section, so the final would've been great, then the tourney would've had at least one more good team in it.

pondyplayer93 wrote:you cant fix this to be perfect

the closest way to be perfect would be if you had a 64 team tourney and took the top 64 teams no matter if they would be a or aa

This is how the original two tournament system worked and in reality it didn't work. You pretty much have to have it the way it is now...However, I would like to see the Private Schools be forced to play AA. Why, because they are not drawing their players from a given community. Regardless if it is recognized our not and sometimes it is because a programs success creates this, but Private schools have the ability to recruit players away from community based programs. Now of course Public schools can potentially have the same things going on but it is tougher to get kids to jump ship to another public program because all the kids in a given program grew up playing together and coaches are reluctant to bring in kids from the outside and displace players coming up in their program.....I am by no means suggesting that it doesn't happen, but with Private schools there is no displacement of kids that grew up together. (not sure I explained that clearly, but hopefully you get the jist) In any event, I think it would alieviate many of the jealousies and bitterness that (IMO) a majority of folks have towards private schools.

Put all privates in AA.

Now let the attacks on my idea's being......lol

Idea 1: Put all the priavtes in their own tournament, it will probably equal or better the public schools tournament many years but this is a joke, especially in A.

Idea 2: Put all privates in AA, give them the option to appeal to go down so teams like the Saints aren't at a big disadvantage year after year.

After reading John Millea's column I have lost what little respect for STA I did have. In how many sports do the play at level lower than their competittion just to rack up trophies? Football, Hockey, Swimming, and Basketball at the very least. At some point you'd think they do the right thing like Cretin and play at their level.

goldy313 wrote:Idea 1: Put all the priavtes in their own tournament, it will probably equal or better the public schools tournament many years but this is a joke, especially in A.

Idea 2: Put all privates in AA, give them the option to appeal to go down so teams like the Saints aren't at a big disadvantage year after year.

After reading John Millea's column I have lost what little respect for STA I did have. In how many sports do the play at level lower than their competittion just to rack up trophies? Football, Hockey, Swimming, and Basketball at the very least. At some point you'd think they do the right thing like Cretin and play at their level.

First Goldy let me say I agree with you......the problem with a private school tournament is there is not enough private schools across the state to actually make that legit.

To answer your question of why winning trophies is so important. Lets not forget that Private Schools are a business. Like any business if you don't have a "good" (in the case the "goods" are athletics) If you don't a a good product, no one will buy it. They need to have at least perceived success to attract students to come to their given school.

I undersatnd many of the comments are a product of the times but honestly, some of this stuff makes me want to hurl.

"Lets be fair" "what if they aren't successful" "if they lose , they will feel bad and nobody will come to the school".

Its athletics. It isnt politics.

Stop manipulating and manufacturing success for kids. Its dishonest.

That being said, if we need to have 2 classes in hockey, go back to what the original concept was. Place teams in a Class based on a number of factors,many of which have been discussed.

But dont heap on to the flaws that already exist by , for example, arbitrarily placing all private schools in AA. Thats as bad as the mshsl mindlessly doing it on enrollment only.

Get down some critera and...hold on to your hats now.......make decisons instead of just adding up to 1200 or deciding "your private, so play in AA".

Why all this hate for high school kids? That's what they are. This is simply a high school sport. Settle down.

That being said, packerboy is right. Enrollment shouldn't be how they decide. That being said also, it shouldn't be the top teams and the bottom teams, nor should recent success be a determining factor. We all know "hockey's different" in that size isn't a huge factor; Roseau will never have the best football program in the state (sorry guys) but they will probably have the best hockey team more than a handful of time in the next century.

Look at the tournament as a whole not just wednesday - saturday.

It starts at sections. 81 A schools and 72 AA schools (roughly). Only 4 of the true AA schools made it to State and 12 A sized schools. With 3 of the A sized schools still in it at the AA level. Sounds like smaller schools are the way to go.

That sounds much better then a 64 team tournament.

This whole AA/A, public/private tournament is placing Minnesota high school hockey in jeopardy. If the tournament continues as is, we in Mn. are in danger of loosing high school hockey as we know it. Of course, we are not there yet but, it will happen. The tournament is turnning into a championship that is not attainable for many of our kids because they do not have the opportunity to play for a large power house school or a tuitioned high school for whatever the reason ie: affordability accessability etc.. . Soon kids will start to loose interest because they will beleive that the tournament is only a pipe dream not something that they can actually attain. Forget north/south rivalries etc... How sad. Will Minnesota become like the east coast where if you have any skill or want to play you have to go to a prep school? The high school programs in the east number a handful and they don't even play the prep schools. Put the tuitioned high schools in their own section in AA. Then in the tournament we will have the best of the privates taking on the rest of the state. If a smaller school wants to opt up, they can but, any one who is going to a school for the "superior" education also has to play in the "superior" tier. "The State of Hockey" only pertains to a privileged few-what a joke.

mainefan wrote:This whole AA/A, public/private tournament is placing Minnesota high school hockey in jeopardy. If the tournament continues as is, we in Mn. are in danger of loosing high school hockey as we know it. Of course, we are not there yet but, it will happen. The tournament is turnning into a championship that is not attainable for many of our kids because they do not have the opportunity to play for a large power house school or a tuitioned high school for whatever the reason ie: affordability accessability etc.. . Soon kids will start to loose interest because they will beleive that the tournament is only a pipe dream not something that they can actually attain. Forget north/south rivalries etc... How sad. Will Minnesota become like the east coast where if you have any skill or want to play you have to go to a prep school? The high school programs in the east number a handful and they don't even play the prep schools. Put the tuitioned high schools in their own section in AA. Then in the tournament we will have the best of the privates taking on the rest of the state. If a smaller school wants to opt up, they can but, any one who is going to a school for the "superior" education also has to play in the "superior" tier. "The State of Hockey" only pertains to a privileged few-what a joke.

It's closer then you think. If schools keep having budget issues Which sports do you think they will cut first?? When I played it was $25 and you got equiped with helmet, COOPERALLS, jerseys, gloves and 3 sticks. This year for my son it was $300 for school and $200 more for boosters and warm-up suit. In the near future could you imagine paying $1000-1500 to play HS hockey at a school that lost every game?

Anyone know what the enrollment cut off is for A/AA?

It will be right at the enrollment of Woodbury/East Ridge and Cottage Grove so all 3 will be able to drop down to Class A. hahahaha

Actually they are predicting 5100 total students for district 833 in 2009-2010 school year when the new High School opens. Which would leave each with around 1700 at each school. Give or take the 300 (all hockey players too!) they lose to the private schools.

edit = someone stated earlier that Alexandria is the largest small school at around 1250.