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Any thoughts?

http://mnhockeyrankings.com/view_2009_r ... ?a=b&v=166

for good or bad, these rankings are totally based off a mathematical formula, no human "subjectivity" at all.

rudy wrote:Any thoughts?

http://mnhockeyrankings.com/view_2009_r ... ?a=b&v=166

I would have thought the state champion would be number #1 ... so much for credibility

These will not be final until the games at the VFW tournament this weekend are played and input.

Here are the "FINAL" Let's Play Hockey rankings:
http://www.letsplayhockey.com/warriorho ... kings.html

The let's play hockey rankings are voted on buy ANYONE THAT WANTS TO RANK teams. So if 75 voters vote for WB and 74 vote for say Lakeville South then the next highest vote was for MG then it would be #1 WB #2 L/S # 3 MG so it is 100% fan based voting Now if only the coaches at that level (A Bantams) voted Then it would have more Crediablity and mean something.

I thought NHL GM's made this list??

My kid will be crushed

Don't tell him and have your whole town sign up and vote they could be NUMBER 1

silentbutdeadly3139 wrote:

rudy wrote:Any thoughts?

http://mnhockeyrankings.com/view_2009_r ... ?a=b&v=166

I would have thought the state champion would be number #1 ... so much for credibility

In your post you make two statements.

1) I would have thought the state champion would be number 1 - why? In a computer ranking where all games are equal it is probably a surprise when the tournament champion also finishes on top.

2) So much for credibility. Huh? Not sure I follow.

www.mnhockeyrankings.com and www.myhockeyrankings.com are incredible sites. To be able to compare teams to each other, even when they have no shared opponents, is pretty awesome if you ask me.

O-townClown wrote:

silentbutdeadly3139 wrote:

rudy wrote:Any thoughts?

http://mnhockeyrankings.com/view_2009_r ... ?a=b&v=166

I would have thought the state champion would be number #1 ... so much for credibility

In your post you make two statements.

1) I would have thought the state champion would be number 1 - why? In a computer ranking where all games are equal it is probably a surprise when the tournament champion also finishes on top.

2) So much for credibility. Huh? Not sure I follow.

www.mnhockeyrankings.com and www.myhockeyrankings.com are incredible sites. To be able to compare teams to each other, even when they have no shared opponents, is pretty awesome if you ask me.

Why ? because they held a tournament in which all teams had a chance to get to the finals and Woodbury won.

Kinda like ranking the Vikings the best team in the NFL.

If you are trying to figure out who won the tournament it makes more sense to look at tournament results than a computer ranking of all the teams in the state.

O-townClown wrote:If you are trying to figure out who won the tournament it makes more sense to look at tournament results than a computer ranking of all the teams in the state.

And if your trying to find the best team look at the tournament results. Hard to believe they are 3rd best after winning state

After East thumped Wb 8-1 and put the game in running time at the VFW, I don't think there is much more to think about.

After East thumped Wb 8-1 and put the game in running time at the VFW, I don't think there is much more to think about.

I'm not sure it is that simple, East and Woodbury were the two most consistant teams throughout the season. The two teams split thier games with one another. East did beat them rather soundly, but my guess is no one would think they are a 7 goal better team. The arguement could be made that the team that finishes 1st and 2nd in the two state tournaments could be recognized as "the best".

netminder.net wrote:

After East thumped Wb 8-1 and put the game in running time at the VFW, I don't think there is much more to think about.

I'm not sure it is that simple, East and Woodbury were the two most consistant teams throughout the season. The two teams split thier games with one another. East did beat them rather soundly, but my guess is no one would think they are a 7 goal better team. The arguement could be made that the team that finishes 1st and 2nd in the two state tournaments could be recognized as "the best".

I was never saying East was bad just laughed that the computer had Woodbury 3rd after winning state and people defended it. Congrats to East as they are obviously a good team as is Woodbury ... the 3rd ranked team in LPH

silentbutdeadly3139

I was never saying East was bad just laughed that the computer had Woodbury 3rd after winning state and people defended it. Congrats to East as they are obviously a good team as is Woodbury ... the 3rd ranked team in LPH

I was not responding to your post, the one that was qouted was the one I was remarking to

netminder.net wrote:silentbutdeadly3139

I was never saying East was bad just laughed that the computer had Woodbury 3rd after winning state and people defended it. Congrats to East as they are obviously a good team as is Woodbury ... the 3rd ranked team in LPH

I was not responding to your post, the one that was qouted was the one I was remarking to

This argument can go on forever...Obviously it is my opinion that East is WAS the best team in the state this year. If you base your rankings off of the tournament championship then you would probably say Woodbury is. I look at it like this...The best team doesn't always win the championship...it takes being good #1, which I think everyone can agree, both teams were very good this year. But it also takes a little luck. I'm not taking anything away from anyone, but do you think East would have been out of the state tournament if they had the same path as say a OMG or Wayzata? I doubt it. If Grand Rapids beats a Mounds View team that IMO they would beat 99/100 times would East have made it....maybe, but probably. Look at some of the other Regions...EGF went 1-2 in their pool and still made it out of Regions...Point being, there are lots of factors that go into who makes it to that state tournament and those factors aren't all equal. The bottom line, for whatever reason, the State Tournament lacked 3 of the 4 best teams in the state, missing Tonka, Edina and East. However, with that being said, it is also those factors that have to be overcome if a team wants to be a state champion. Woodbury overcame those obsticles and went on to win the State Championship, so yes...Woodbury is the State Champion, but that doesn't mean they were the best team in the state. The other thing, and this is something I believe in pretty firmly, The best team in the state doesn't get run out of town by getting slapped 8-1, you can make any excuse you want about it not being that important to them because of the previous weekend or whatever excuse you want to give. I'm not taking anything away from Woodbury, they were a great team, but IMO (which is clearly biased, I freely admit) They were the 3rd best team this year...With that being said, they are also the state champs and 100 years from now that is what the record book will say and all these discussions won't matter. Congratulations to all the teams on a great bantam season, I hope my younger kids make it to the level so I can follow it again.


Lastly, LPH loses credibility with me in their rankings and putting tonka and East out of the top 8 because they didn't make it to state. If these are truly "RANKINGS" than rank the teams where they are based on the season, level of competition they played against and their record against those teams. If you want to list finishes then that is a different story.

All I will say is rankings are just peoples and machines opinions they don't win you medals or trophies if they did why would we have playoffs? I never by into the best team doesn't always win stuff. Everyone has different paths to get the the championship and if your the "best" you should win no matter who or when you are playing them. I would argue East and Woodbury should be tied for the #1 ranking as both won championships.

This argument can go on forever...Obviously it is my opinion that East is WAS the best team in the state this year.

Lastly, LPH loses credibility with me in their rankings and putting tonka and East out of the top 8 because they didn't make it to state. If these are truly "RANKINGS" than rank the teams where they are based on the season, level of competition they played against and their record against those teams. If you want to list finishes then that is a different story.

This is an interesting debate and one that clearly does not have an answer. Duluth East Fan, I understand your point of view but your logic has holes in it. For example, you talked about the easy road Wayzata and OMG had to the State Tournament. This has merit, but you also failed to mention that OMG was 4-0 against Woodbury, Grand Rapids, and your own Duluth East squad. So by your own logic of incorporating head to head competition into the rankings, I would think OMG would be the best team in the state or does the math not apply when it works against the hounds?

The MN Hockey Bantam A Championship is the only one that includes all the teams in the State. For that reason that is the most important title by a wide margin. It's also contested at several levels.

The VFW Bantam A State title is a historic championship but doesn't carry the same weight. Several bantam A teams choose not to participate in a VFW Bantam A League or the VFW Bantam A Regional tourneys so the field has significantly fewer teams participating.

To me, winning titles is the ultimate measure. Teams that fail down the home stretch can't win a title so can't really be considered #1. Woodbury rattled off a nice little 16 game winning streak to finish the MN Hockey season including the State championship game. East had 2 losses in their last 16 games and 4 in their last 20.

Hey, winning the VFW Bantam A State tourney is no small accomplishment either. Congrats to East! I also see they sit #1 on the www.myhockeyrankings.com site which to me is the best measure.

5 For Fighting wrote:

This argument can go on forever...Obviously it is my opinion that East is WAS the best team in the state this year.

Lastly, LPH loses credibility with me in their rankings and putting tonka and East out of the top 8 because they didn't make it to state. If these are truly "RANKINGS" than rank the teams where they are based on the season, level of competition they played against and their record against those teams. If you want to list finishes then that is a different story.

This is an interesting debate and one that clearly does not have an answer. Duluth East Fan, I understand your point of view but your logic has holes in it. For example, you talked about the easy road Wayzata and OMG had to the State Tournament. This has merit, but you also

failed to mention that OMG was 4-0 against Woodbury, Grand Rapids, and your own Duluth East squad. So by your own logic of incorporating head to head competition into the rankings, I would think OMG would be the best team in the state or does the math not apply when it works against the hounds?

East Grand Forks beat OMG in State so I think they are the Actually the best in the State???

Welcome to the fun world of trying to rank things, boys.

Woodbury was state champions

Duluth East was best in state

- and its over and now we can argue who will be the best for the next season- and the talk should be Roseau and Edina

silentbutdeadly3139 wrote:

O-townClown wrote:If you are trying to figure out who won the tournament it makes more sense to look at tournament results than a computer ranking of all the teams in the state.

And if your trying to find the best team look at the tournament results. Hard to believe they are 3rd best after winning state

Do you know what you are looking at? "Look at tournament results"? What if the state tournament hasn't been played? And yes, the rankings do take all results into account.

Who has the best Bantam team in the nation? Who are the favorites to win Nationals? If you have a different measuring stick to look at go ahead. Most people just look at the myhockey rankings because they are - like all formulaic rankings - a great place to start.

It doesn't seem like you understand rankings very well. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't read their methodology recently, but aren't all games considered equal by myhockey and mnhockey?

O-townClown wrote:

silentbutdeadly3139 wrote:

O-townClown wrote:If you are trying to figure out who won the tournament it makes more sense to look at tournament results than a computer ranking of all the teams in the state.

And if your trying to find the best team look at the tournament results. Hard to believe they are 3rd best after winning state

Do you know what you are looking at? "Look at tournament results"? What if the state tournament hasn't been played? And yes, the rankings do take all results into account.

Who has the best Bantam team in the nation? Who are the favorites to win Nationals? If you have a different measuring stick to look at go ahead. Most people just look at the myhockey rankings because they are - like all formulaic rankings - a great place to start.

It doesn't seem like you understand rankings very well. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't read their methodology recently, but aren't all games considered equal by myhockey and mnhockey?

By equal do you mean that tournament championships aren't weighted higher than a VFW or district league game or a scrimmage game? Than that is correct, all of the games are weighted equally.

mnhockeyrankings is a great tool for scheduling opponents because it is a good place to start, but the fact is that some teams match up better than others. In a Minnesota Bantam game size and speed are so variable, and yes it matters if the refs are calling a tight game or not. Forest Lake's team this year could stay very close with a lot of teams because they were extremely fast but smaller in size and not as physical. Next year they will have more second years and will be much bigger and will play more physical, but Mounds View was a big team, not necessarily a fast team. Mounds View was able to easily handle Forest Lake, particularly in games that are not called closely. Elk River, a fast team, but not necessarily a physical team, did not beat FL. Woodbury, big but not necessarily physical, FL was able to keep it close. Thunder Bay, very physical, FL couldn't get on the board.

Northern teams come down and run into D6 type refs and they can't play their usual game-- which is not a dirty game but more physical than the kids in the cities are allowed to play. City teams go north and find they need a more physical game to compete.

Rankings can only take you so far, there are too many variables at game time, which is "why they play the games". I guess my argument is that it takes two different teams to win these two very different style of tournaments.

5 For Fighting wrote:

This argument can go on forever...Obviously it is my opinion that East is WAS the best team in the state this year.

Lastly, LPH loses credibility with me in their rankings and putting tonka and East out of the top 8 because they didn't make it to state. If these are truly "RANKINGS" than rank the teams where they are based on the season, level of competition they played against and their record against those teams. If you want to list finishes then that is a different story.

This is an interesting debate and one that clearly does not have an answer. Duluth East Fan, I understand your point of view but your logic has holes in it. For example, you talked about the easy road Wayzata and OMG had to the State Tournament. This has merit, but you also failed to mention that OMG was 4-0 against Woodbury, Grand Rapids, and your own Duluth East squad. So by your own logic of incorporating head to head competition into the rankings, I would think OMG would be the best team in the state or does the math not apply when it works against the hounds?

Totally agree, you could make that argument.

OMG #1

Ultimately Woodbury is the state champion and when history looks back on this season of bantam hockey that is what will stand the test of time. But for here and now IMHO, I feel as I do. Which as I previously stated, is openly biased!