HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

I was sitting at a poker table at Canterbury Park on Sunday when Minneapolis native Dustin Byfuglien buried the game winning goal for Chicago, completing the sweep over the Sharks and sending the Blackhawks back to the Stanley Cup Finals for the first time since 1991. I remember thinking, "Someplace in Minnesota sits a proud papa."

I later learned that the proud papa in question was Roseau's own Dale Smedsmo. The 6'1" Smedsmo played left wing at Bemidji State in 1971, scoring 16 goals with 5 assists through 24 games to go along with his honorably earned 52 penalty minutes. A promising player with seemingly large potential, it was no surprise when he was snapped up in the 4th round of 1971 NHL draft by the Toronto Maple Leafs. For whatever reason, Smedsmo didn't stay in the NHL long, playing just 4 games before toiling away in lesser leagues for the next 8 years and finally fading off into the sunset for good in 1979.

Upon learning this, it re-sparked my curiosity in the DNA factor. It's often said that hockey players beget hockey players. Indeed, much of the hype surrounding elite youth players is centered on the offspring of current and former NHL players. Many people incorrectly believe (despite much evidence to the contrary) that DNA is the single strongest ingredient that an aspiring athlete can have going for him.

Research has, however, proven otherwise. More important than DNA is opportunity and environment. The 10,000 hour rule, the early start and an individuals passion for their sport are all more powerful than DNA. Even intangibles elements, such as families financial situation, home stability and even birth date, can have more dramatic effects on the eventual development of an athlete than the DNA which runs through their blood. These breakthrough discoveries have given rise to the realization that athletes are made and not born.

The DNA trail on Smedsmo and Byfuglien didn't go very far. As it turns out, Smedsmo didn't contribute the DNA which created Byfuglien. He is his stepfather and didn't become involved in the life of Byfuglien until he was 13 years old. However, what Smedsmo did contribute might have ultimately been just as important. In an interview with ESPNChicago, Smedsmo recalls;

"When I first met him, he was so lazy I wanted to give him a kick in the butt. I had to get him out of bed. I threw away his cell phone. I was hard on him, but I have nothing but admiration for him."

Anyways, back to the DNA ... I decided to take a statistical approach and look at all the men who played in the NHL and their offspring. (The data is below). My findings were interesting, although not conclusive.

There have been over 15,000 men that have played in the NHL since 1917. Of those 15,000 men just 98 produced offspring that also played in the NHL. Eight of those 15,000+ men have some pretty strong DNA, as 7 produced multiple children who played in the NHL and Bobby Hull was able to produce a player every bit as dominant as he himself was.

98 of 15,000 doesnt seem like a big number. In fact, it's about 2/3rds of a single percentage point. A pretty tiny number indeed, yet a much bigger number than the general population. Of course, the general population doesn't aspire to play in the NHL to the same degree the offspring of an NHL player might ... nor does the general population have the same opportunity to pursue an NHL dream as the offspring of an NHL player. In other words, there are certain advantages afforded the offspring of an NHL player that aren't confined to DNA. Resources, connections and a father who, through direct experience, knows what it takes are chief among them.

Further, there certainly is a correlation between environment and success even within the DNA samples. For example, the offspring of players who come from a Northern climate (environment/culture) who's primary sport is hockey (Canada, Sweden) are better than 3 times more likely to follow in fathers footsteps than those born in a country who's sport is not predominantly hockey (USA).

I thought the data was interesting. I'm not sure how conclusive it might be, as players from countries like Russia, for example, haven't been in the NHL long enough to produce offspring. Additionally, it's difficult to say if some of the children of NHL players, especially from the early years, were actually NHL caliber, or if they recieved spots on the team because of who their fathers were (i.e James Norris). Certainly, the data does seem to reinforce the notion that DNA is less important in the making of an NHL hockey player than other critical factors, environment, opportunity and dedication.

I'd be interested in hearing some different viewpoints. Here's the data ...

Over 15,000 men have played in the NHL since 1917. A breakdown of these men by country of birth is as followed;

9683 Canada
3079 USA
537 Russia
501 Sweden
427 Czechs
355 Finland
156 Slovakia

Key numbers;

98 - number of men who played in the NHL and then produced sons who played in the NHL

83 - number of Canadian born men who played in the NHL and then produced sons who played in the NHL (0.86%)
8 - number of American born men who played in the NHL and then produced sons who played in the NHL (0.26%)
4 - number of Swedish born men who played in the NHL and then produced sons who played in the NHL (0.79%)
1 - number of Czechoslovakian born men who played in the NHL and then produced sons who played in the NHL
1 - number of Finish born men who played in the NHL and then produced sons who played in the NHL
1 - number of Slovakian born men who played in the NHL and then produced sons who played in the NHL

7 - number of men who produced multiple sons who played in the NHL

1 - number of Elite NHL Players (MVP's) who produced an Elite Caliber (MVP's) son who played in the NHL (Bobby & Brett Hull)

Breakdown of NHL fathers and sons:

Syl Apps (Canada) father of Syl Jr.
Chuck Arnason (Canada) father of Tyler (USA)
Ron Attwell (Canada) father of Bob (USA)
Hank Bassen (Canada) father of Bob : Both played for the Chicago Blackhawks.
Harvey Bennett Sr. (Canada) father of Curt, Harvey Jr., Bill (USA) : Harvey Sr. and Bill both played for the Boston Bruins.
Rene Boileau (Canada) father of Mark
Emile "Butch" Bouchard (Canada) father of Pierre : Both won the Stanley Cup with the Montreal Canadiens.
Paulin Bordeleau (Canada) father of Sebastien
Ray Bourque (Canada) father of Chris (USA)
Scotty Bowman (Canada) father of Stan
Adam Brown (Canada) father of Andy : Both played for the Detroit Red Wings. Andy was the last NHL goaltender to play without a mask.
Jiri Bubla (Czech) father of Jiri Slegr : They both played for the Vancouver Canucks. They both won the IIHF World Hockey Championship Gold Medals. Jiri the son uses the surname Slegr.
Bucky Buchanan (Canada) father of Ron
Colin Campbell (Canada) father of Gregory
Red Carr (Canada) father of Gene
Mark Chorney (Canada) father of Taylor (USA)
Guy Chouinard (Canada) father of Eric
King Clancy (Canada) father of Terry : Both played for the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Charlie Conacher (Canada) father of Pete : Both played for the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Lionel Conacher (Canada) father of Brian
Alain Cote (Canada) father of Jean-Philippe
Dave Creighton (Canada) father of Adam : Both played for the Chicago Blackhawks.
Mike Crombeen (Canada) father of B. J. (USA) : Both played for the St. Louis Blues
Barry Cullen (Canada) father of John : Both played for the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Ab DeMarco Sr. (Canada) father of Ab, Jr. : Both played for the Boston Bruins and New York Rangers.
Bill Dineen (Canada) father of Gord, Peter, Kevin : Bill was Kevin's coach with the Philadelphia Flyers
Norm Dube (Canada) father of Christian
Mike Eaves (USA) father of Patrick
Norm Ferguson (Canada) father of Craig
John Ferguson Sr. (Canada) father of John Jr.
Lee Fogolin Sr. (Canada) father of Lee Jr. (USA)
Mike Foligno (Canada) father of Nick (USA)
Emile Francis (Canada) father of Bob
Dave Gagner (Canada) father of Sam
Bob Gainey (Canada) father of Steve : Steve was drafted by his father
Cal Gardner (Canada) father of Dave, Paul : Cal and Paul both played for the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Bernie Geoffrion (Canada) father of Dan : Both played for the Montreal Canadiens.
Hank Goldup (Canada) father of Glenn
Ron & Charlotte Grahame (Canada) father of John (USA) : Charlotte and John are the only mother-son combination to have their names engraved on the Stanley Cup. Ron and John are the only father-son goalie combination to play for the same team (Boston Bruins). Charlotte and John are the only mother-son combination to have their names engraved on the Stanley Cup. Ron and John are the only father-son goalie combination to play for the same team (Boston Bruins). On February 4 2006 John faced Brent Johnson - the first time two-second generation goaltenders faced each other in an NHL game.
Bill Hajt (Canada) father of Chris (USA)
Matti Hagman (Finland) father of Niklas
Ted Hampson (Canada) father of Gord
Gord Haworth (Canada) father of Alan
Bryan Hextall (Canada) father of Bryan, Jr., Dennis : All three played for the New York Rangers, but not at the same time.
Bryan Hextall Jr. (Canada) father of Ron
Wayne Hicks (USA) father of Alex (Canada) : Both played for the Pittsburgh Penguins.
Ken Hodge (Canada) father of Ken, Jr. : Both played for the Boston Bruins; became first father-son duo to score a hat trick for the same team.
Louis Holmes (Canada) father of Chuck
Gordie Howe (Canada) father of Mark, Marty (USA) : All three played together during the 1979–80 NHL season with the Hartford Whalers, the only such time in NHL history.
Bobby Hull (Canada) father of Brett (USA) : Both played for the Winnipeg Jets/Phoenix Coyotes franchise; Brett wore his father’s retired number 9 when he joined the Coyotes. Only father-son combination to win the Hart Trophy for league MVP. Both Bobby and Brett are members of the Hockey Hall of Fame.
Earl Ingarfield Sr. (Canada) father of Earl, Jr. (USA)
Dick Irvin (Canada) father of Dick, Jr.
Bill Johansen (Canada) father of Trevor : Both played for the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Bob Johnson (USA) father of Brent : Both played for the St. Louis Blues and Pittsburgh Penguins. On February 4, 2006, Brent faced John Grahame, the first time two-second generation goaltenders faced each other in an NHL game.
Bobby Kromm (Canada) father of Richard
Pierre Lacroix (Canada) father of Eric
Roger Lafreniere (Canada) father of Jason
Jacques Laperriere (Canada) father of Daniel
Claude Larose (Canada) father of Guy
Reggie Leach (Canada) father of Jamie
Bert Lindsay (Canada) father of Ted
Sam LoPresti (USA) father of Pete
Bernie Lukowich (Canada) father of Brad
Jack MacKell (Canada) father of Fleming : Jack won the Stanley Cup with the Ottawa Senators twice in 1920 and 1921, and his son Fleming won the Stanley Cup twice with the Toronto Maple Leafs in 1948 and 1951.
Greg Malone (Canada) father of Ryan (USA) : Both played for the Pittsburgh Penguins; became only the second father-son duo to score a hat trick for the same team.
Bill McCreary Sr. (Canada) father of Bill Jr. (USA)
Mike McMahon Sr. (Canada) father of Mike, Jr.
Max McNab (Canada) father of Peter, David (USA)
Gilles Meloche (Canada) father of Eric
Jim Morrison (Canada) father of Dave
Kent Nilsson (Sweden) father of Robert : Robert plays for the Edmonton Oilers, the same club that his father played for.
James Norris (USA) father of Bruce, James D., Marguerite
Bob Nystrom (Sweden) father of Eric (USA)
Peanuts O'Flaherty (Canada) father of Gerry (USA)
Aldo Palazzari (USA) father of Doug
J. P. Parise (Canada) father of Zach (USA)
Jimmy Peters Sr. (Canada) father of Jimmy, Jr. : Both played for the Detroit Red Wings.
Cam Plante (Canada) father of Alex
Babe Pratt (Canada) father of Tracy : Both played for the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Nelson Pyatt (Canada) father of Taylor, Tom
Clare "Rags" Raglan (Canada) father of Herb
Leo Reise (Canada) father of Leo Jr. : First father-son combination to play in the NHL; both played for the New York Rangers.
Steve Richmond (USA) father of Danny
Dennis Riggin (Canada) father of Pat
Doug Roberts (USA) father of David
Doug Robinson (Canada) father of Rob
Bob Sauve (Canada) father of Philippe (USA)
Frank Selke (Canada) father of Frank, Jr.
Des Smith (Canada) father of Brian, Gary
Stuart Smith (Canada) father of Brian
Stan Smrke (Canada) father of John
Frank Spring (Canada) father of Corey
Pat Stapleton (Canada) father of Mike : Both played for the Chicago Blackhawks.
Peter Stastny (Slovakia) father of Paul, Yan (USA) : Paul plays for the Colorado Avalanche, the same franchise his father played for (Quebec Nordiques), and wears the same number (#26).
Thomas Steen (Sweden) father of Alexander (Canada)
Brent Sutter (Canada) father of Brandon
Darryl Sutter (Canada) father of Brett : Brett made his debut with the Calgary Flames while his father was serving as the team's general manager.
Steve Tambellini (Canada) father of Jeff : Jeff plays for the New York Islanders, the same club that his father played for.


There are 5 other men who both played in the NHL and fathered sons who played in the NHL, however, the sum total NHL games played by the sons of those 5 men equal 6 games. An accomplishment in it's own right, but for the purpose of this research, not of the same standard as the father/sons above. They are;


Sid Abel, (Canada), father of Gerry, (USA) : Gerry played only one game in the NHL.
Tom Colley, (Canada), father of Kevin, (USA) : Tom played only one game in the NHL.
Joe Crozier, (Canada), father of Greg : Greg played only one game in the NHL.
Billy "The Kid" Taylor, (Canada), father of Billy Jr. : Both played two games for the New York Rangers; those were the only two of Billy Jr.’s NHL career.
Rogie Vachon, (Canada), father of Nick : Nick played only one game in the NHL.

I think DNA is extremely important...but the DNA link doesn't have to be the fact that the kids dad played hockey. I think a father and mother who were both athletically-gifted have offspring, there is a good chance that their son/daughter will also possess that natural ability. I don't buy the argument of "nature vs nurture", I think it's more "nature AND nurture".

Most young hockey players can be developed to a certain point with quality instruction and the desire inside the kid to improve.....but there is a DNA-factor in there that allows some kids to take it to the next level. As far as your example of Dustin Byfuglien goes, while his step-dad didn't contribute his DNA, my bet is that if you look at Dustin's family tree, there will probably be someone very close to him that was also a gifted athlete....maybe not at any professional ranks, but did achieve success at some level in some sport.

You simply can't "build" an Alexander Ovechkin or Sidney Crosby from scratch. There needs to be some natural ability inherent to that player and you combine that with quality instruction and motivation on behalf of the player to want to get better.

Great post!

"nature AND nurture" sounds about right. You can't deny DNA anymore than you can deny dedication to ones sport. Both are over-rated by themselves and do more to disqualify a candidate from success than they do to have a candidate achieve success.

For example;

On dedication: You put in 10,000 hours. You wake up every morning before dawn to stretch and stickhandle. You attend every clinic at every rink at every waking hour from the time you are 6 to the time you are 18. Indeed, no one has equalled your work load. You have done more than anyone ever in the history of hockey development. Unfortunately, your 4'3" father and his stubby 4'1" wife have given you little to work with. You yourself are a mere 4'5" on your tippy toes. Good for you for putting in the hours, but your phone is not ringing. Recruiters are not beating down your door.

On DNA: You are a strapping 6'4" lad with a magic metabolism. You gain muscle mass with little to no effort and physically things comes easy to you. You have been spoon fed in your ivory tower and haven't had to work for anything a day in your life. Life is easy. You have no worries and you are a gifted genetic freak physically. Unfortunately, this soft life has trained you to expect things. Your father, also a genetic and physically gifted freak played sports at a high level once and is respected in the community. On his say so alone, you have always found yourself on the communities top teams and on those teams you have been on top lines. Now you are in high school and on the high school team, but something begins to change. Things aren't coming as easy. You are getting a jersey tug when you think it's your turn to hit the ice. That kid who used to pass the water bottle is now passing you in the pecking order. He has out-worked you. His time and dedication is paying off while your soft years are catching up to you. You haven't put in the work and your neglect has now cost you - and likely excluded you from any further advancement in this sport.

What is the right mix of DNA, opportunity, environment, passion? It's probably different for everyone. Which one is the most important might be a futile debate as the absence of any one of those elements is as critical as the next.

muckandgrind wrote:You simply can't "build" an Alexander Ovechkin or Sidney Crosby from scratch. There needs to be some natural ability inherent to that player and you combine that with quality instruction and motivation on behalf of the player to want to get better.

You might be right about this. I dunno ... tough to make that conclusion concretely but easy to grasp the theory. But every time someone says "can't", it turns out that you can. You just have to rise to the challenge.

Indeed, industries are built on the premise of selective breeding. The cattle industry and the horse racing industry to name a couple. Surely, there is plenty of scientific data combined with these genetic genetically enginered industries to suggest that physical gifts like size, strength and metabolism are passed easily through DNA.

But all an elite bull has to is eat and all an elite horse has to do is run. Those are both things that cows and horses do naturally.

Elite human athletes are much more complex. To excell in a human sport requires a mastery of learned skills and mental toughness. Neither of which comes from DNA.

It may be true that if you take an elite human athlete and an average human athlete and expose them to exactly the same training that the elite human athlete should out-perform the average human athlete.

However, it is also true that an average human athlete with an extraordinary dedication to his sport and ample opportunity to advance will out-perform an elite athlete with ordinary dedication and/or restricted opportunities.

Again, none of the ingredients is more important than the other if any of the ingredients are missing.

WhosPuckIsItAnyways? wrote:"nature AND nurture" sounds about right. You can't deny DNA anymore than you can deny dedication to ones sport. Both are over-rated by themselves and do more to disqualify a candidate from success than they do to have a candidate achieve success.

For example;

On dedication: You put in 10,000 hours. You wake up every morning before dawn to stretch and stickhandle. You attend every clinic at every rink at every waking hour from the time you are 6 to the time you are 18. Indeed, no one has equalled your work load. You have done more than anyone ever in the history of hockey development. Unfortunately, your 4'3" father and his stubby 4'1" wife have given you little to work with. You yourself are a mere 4'5" on your tippy toes. Good for you for putting in the hours, but your phone is not ringing. Recruiters are not beating down your door.

On DNA: You are a strapping 6'4" lad with a magic metabolism. You gain muscle mass with little to no effort and physically things comes easy to you. You have been spoon fed in your ivory tower and haven't had to work for anything a day in your life. Life is easy. You have no worries and you are a gifted genetic freak physically. Unfortunately, this soft life has trained you to expect things. Your father, also a genetic and physically gifted freak played sports at a high level once and is respected in the community. On his say so alone, you have always found yourself on the communities top teams and on those teams you have been on top lines. Now you are in high school and on the high school team, but something begins to change. Things aren't coming as easy. You are getting a jersey tug when you think it's your turn to hit the ice. That kid who used to pass the water bottle is now passing you in the pecking order. He has out-worked you. His time and dedication is paying off while your soft years are catching up to you. You haven't put in the work and your neglect has now cost you - and likely excluded you from any further advancement in this sport.

What is the right mix of DNA, opportunity, environment, passion? It's probably different for everyone. Which one is the most important might be a futile debate as the absence of any one of those elements is as critical as the next.

Your last sentence was the most profound. You can have all the DNA in the world, you can have all the work ethic in the world but if you do not have the opportunity and/or environment to showcase the two you still get no where. And opportunity can be as much about luck as creation. You really do need the perfect mix of all to get to the ultimate level, especially in hockey. Some sports not as much but hockey is defeinitely one that requires all.

Developing great performers is not something that can be expressed easily in an equation or rule, though many will try in order to sell a book or a service.
I never contended that DNA is the only thing, but natural athletic ability is a major factor in that equation. Ovechkin’s parents did not play hockey, though his Mom was an Olympic Basketball player.
Developing skills follows an asymptotic curve, not a straight line. If one were to spend 600 hours next winter at the skinner academy, there will be more growth in the first 100 hours than the last 100 hours.
Some people contend that Myelin is supposed to hold the answer-the more you have, the better you are at your chosen skill.
However, who is to say that everyone develops Myelin at the same rate? People with MS have very little Myelin, yet people who have great control over their movement have a lot.
Could someone argue that their DNA is different, so they develop Myelin at different rates? That may explain what we call a natural athlete. What about all the great tennis players coming out of that Siberian Tennis Academy, or the great women golfers coming out of South Korea? They are products of many hours of great instruction (10,000+), however, there is still a defined hierarchy.
Some are clearly better than others, though they all had the same coaching and put in about the same hours. DNA also includes size, with being 6’2” is better than being 5’5” in hockey, though the reverse is true in men’s Gymnastics.
Even BM stated in the LPH article that he chose the best natural athletes to form his Minnesota 88s, not necessarily the best players at that time.



M&G has it right-it is Nature and Nurture. It is a very complex equation that no one really knows, though some will try to explain it in simple terms. There is also an element of luck. Great performers are made, but they also need the right DNA to achieve greatness.

TMTS - good stuff. I like the fact you brought Myelin into the conversation.

People usually talk about natural athletic ability as some sort of undefineable gift from god, but breaking research is questioning that.

The study of Myelin is a great example of that. You pose some great questions ... is Myelin what we are refering to when we speak of natural athletic ability. If it is, is it then possible to increase ones natural athletic ability by increasing ones Myelin?

We don't know that yet, but consider the possibilities.

We do know that heart training in the "Red Zone" (95-100%) engages the fast twitch muscles where the Myelin sheaths exists. Elite athletes do this under supervision to increase their speed.

What if we found easier and safer ways to engage and enhance our Myelin. If we could do this and it was effective (which it is in theory) then we actually could "build" a Sydney Crosby or an Alexander Ovechkin, or more accurate - bring out our inner Sydney and Alex.

There is no such thing as "can't' - just stuff we haven't solved yet. Truly Hockey Players can be Made through learned skills, opportunity and soon to come, they may even be able to increase through training - their natural athletic ability.

Just building a Sid or AO is not that easy even assuming that the secret sauce is Myelin.
The assumption would be that everyone has the same level of Myelin naturally occuring in their body and they would develop new Myelin at the same rate.
I would contend, though I have no proof, that it is reasonable to assume that everyone has a different natural level and everyone develops at a different rate.
Just like people have different skin pigments, eye color, some tan easier, some go bald, someone gets exposed to certain chemicals and develops cancer, while the next person is not impacted.
Everyone has a different set a chromosones, so how they react to different stimuli most likely will be somewhat different-not necessarily in the reaction, just the rate of the reaction which would explain the differences in ability.

'nuff said.
 

It's never 'nuff said ...if it were, forums like this wouldn't exist.

Based on the premise that we actually found an efficient way to increase Meylin, the next phase would be finding a way to increase it at will and to do so safely.

Body builders, in an extreme example, can put on as much weight as they are willing to subject themselves to. They can do this through a combination of diet, excersize and steroids.

I am not advocating the use of steroids in any way, merely illustrating that they did find a way to overcome their genetic shortcomings and increase muscle mass, albeit unnaturally and with unwanted side effects.

Despite these unwanted side effects, elite mainstream athletes continue to use steroids today to increase their "natural" athletic abilities.

The point is - through research they found a way to scientifically increase muscle mass to the preference of the user and deliver results where natural genetics could not. In theory then, if we found a way to increase Myelin in the same manner - be it natural or artificial - the amount of Myelin could be at the whim of the athlete.

The trick is to do it safely and without risk. Increasing Myelin through heart rate target training may be just the tip of the ice berg.

These super wide threads really......... bug me.

I was thinking exactly the same thing ....

TMTS, you need to go in and edit your posts. Put them back into notepad and put on a word wrap. Then re-paste. That should give us our regular look and feel again and eliminate this annoying sideways scroll ...

For anyone wanting to better understand talent -- several smart magazine and newspaper pieces have zeroed in on new, critical data related to Myelin.

Here is a solid piece in the NYTimes Sports Magazine that nicely combines Anders Ericsson's work on "deliberate practice" with some very recent findings about myelin, the fatty insulation around nerve fibers that makes electrical nerve signals more efficient.

It's appropriately titled ...

How to Grow a Super-Athlete
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/sport ... wanted=all

Here's a more clinical look at Myelin
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1654 ... stractPlus

I believe Bernie (MM) would disagree with this thread with genetics not being important. I have heard on numerous occassions over the past several years from some MM parents where they were told there son was too small etc, not lacking skill. I've also heard from some ex MM coaches that they consider the size of the parents when making personnel decisions. Size does matter! Can anyone else validate this.

2 things ...

1.) No one on this thread has said or implied that genetics are not important.

2.) What Bernie, Jaques Demers, Don Lucia or any other coach believes or does not believes does not alter the scientific truth.

If it is proven that players can be made, then it is so, regardless of who believes it and who does not.

That's a bit like saying the guys at National Geographic believe the earth is flat. That would be a meaningless statement though, as regardless of your field of expertise, the Earth is proven to be round.

WPIIA,

So, are ya moving to Blaine? Are ya ditching the Made?

so i wonder does/can "talent" (biological advantage) change over time?

we see youth stars fizzle over time, kids who blossom late, and some studs just remain studs

there are old sayings like hard work + determination = success...and while that can maximize ones individual success it cannot compare larger samples without the biological advantages

so something like talent (biological advantage) + motivation (hard work + determination) = success

Talented or gifted are obviously broad labels but must apply to all funtions at some level...whether a musician, athlete, or business the very best have some level of natural biological advantage over all other.

The Myelin article gives these two formulas

Intense Parents + Young Kids + Rigorous Technique + Toughness = Talent

and;

Deliberate Practice + Time = Myelin = Talent

very good article
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/sport ... wanted=all

It also helps if your kid is born in the first half of the year (Jan-Jun) There was a study done on the birthdays of NHL draft picks, it showed some where around 80% of the top players were jan-jun.

I couldnt find it but there is also a book written on it.

Youngblood, you are correct about the Jan-Jun thing. That subject has been worked over fairly well on this board.

However, I have a more pressing question. What's the deal with this string and having to scroll to the right to read everything? Talk about annoying. Is this just a problem with my computer or are all of you having to do the same thing? I 've never had this problem with any other string before.

OGEE OGELTHORPE wrote:These super wide threads really bug me.

Not just your computer it's everyones.
A guy would think Super Karl would fix it.

The scrolling page culprit is the posts of Toomuchtoosoon .

He (or a moderator) neds to go back in and edit his post. He must have cut and pasted his text from a working notepad and did not have the word wrap turned on. This leads his paragraphs to be one looooooooooooooooong sentence without a return.

karl? a little help here ...

youngblood08 wrote:It also helps if your kid is born in the first half of the year (Jan-Jun)

Right.

But that speaks to opportunity .

In the athletic equation, genetics + practice + opportunity = success

The birthday pheonomina falls into the opportunity ingredient.

We are now learning that the genetic portion, or "natural talent" does not have to be genetic at all ... that anyone can increase overcome genetic deficiencies through Myelination, which, not suprisingly, is linked to quality repetitions in practice.

This is something that had been stumbled on through trial and error by the 10,000 hour and 10 year disciples. Modern science and medicine is now correlating the physical reasons, further clearing up the matter and making genetics even less important than they were already becoming.

The main ingredient now is desire of the individual athlete, as no one can be forced into doing quality repetitions for 10,000 hours or more. They either want to do it or they don't. Those that have the desire can far surpass those born with a lower genetic threshold to Myelin (natural talent).

In rare cases an individual possess abundant Meylin, a low threshold to it's access and an overwhelming passion for his sport. Tiger Woods is a good example of an individual who possess all three and is also a good example of how extremely rare these individuals are.

WhosPuckIsItAnyways? wrote:The scrolling page culprit is the posts of Toomuchtoosoon .

He (or a moderator) neds to go back in and edit his post. He must have cut and pasted his text from a working notepad and did not have the word wrap turned on. This leads his paragraphs to be one looooooooooooooooong sentence without a return.

karl? a little help here ...

I edited his posts (and also Ogee's, since his endless elipsis also dragged the thread out). Seems to have fixed it for me; hope it has for you, too.

karl(east) wrote:

WhosPuckIsItAnyways? wrote:The scrolling page culprit is the posts of Toomuchtoosoon .

He (or a moderator) neds to go back in and edit his post. He must have cut and pasted his text from a working notepad and did not have the word wrap turned on. This leads his paragraphs to be one looooooooooooooooong sentence without a return.

karl? a little help here ...

I edited his posts (and also Ogee's, since his endless elipsis also dragged the thread out). Seems to have fixed it for me; hope it has for you, too.

Yes, much better. Makes me wonder though?

Deliberate Practice + Time = Myelin = Talent =

Best Damn Mouse Scroller in the country.