Brackets
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:10 pm
Has anyone made both A and AA brackets of all playoff games?
Usually Eagles does the brackets.PoNd HocKey ChAmP67 wrote:Has anyone made both A and AA brackets of all playoff games?
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Brackets
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Re: Brackets
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:11 pm
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:14 pm
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:21 pm
Sorry, I won't be doing them anymore. I just don't have the time to put them together. I wish someone else could do them as I really liked having them every year.
The brackets (or "Big Board") I made were originally created for office pools. You could print the entire 64-(or however many teams) bracket, fill it out and collect. The brackets on the various web sites are fine for looking at on the web but not convenient for printing.
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:26 pm
Eagles93,Eagles93 wrote:Sorry, I won't be doing them anymore. I just don't have the time to put them together. I wish someone else could do them as I really liked having them every year.
The brackets (or "Big Board") I made were originally created for office pools. You could print the entire 64-(or however many teams) bracket, fill it out and collect. The brackets on the various web sites are fine for looking at on the web but not convenient for printing.
I'll be glad to do them...
Do you have a bracket skeleton for me to work off of?
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:30 pm
puck, send me a pm with your email address and I can email one you can work with.PuckU126 wrote:Eagles93,Eagles93 wrote:Sorry, I won't be doing them anymore. I just don't have the time to put them together. I wish someone else could do them as I really liked having them every year.
The brackets (or "Big Board") I made were originally created for office pools. You could print the entire 64-(or however many teams) bracket, fill it out and collect. The brackets on the various web sites are fine for looking at on the web but not convenient for printing.
I'll be glad to do them...
Do you have a bracket skeleton for me to work off of?
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:32 pm
Done.MNHockeyFan wrote:puck, send me a pm with your email address and I can email one you can work with.PuckU126 wrote:Eagles93,Eagles93 wrote:Sorry, I won't be doing them anymore. I just don't have the time to put them together. I wish someone else could do them as I really liked having them every year.
The brackets (or "Big Board") I made were originally created for office pools. You could print the entire 64-(or however many teams) bracket, fill it out and collect. The brackets on the various web sites are fine for looking at on the web but not convenient for printing.
I'll be glad to do them...
Do you have a bracket skeleton for me to work off of?
Thanks again.
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:18 pm
I'm curious if anyone knows what goes into the seeding process and what (if any) guidelines coaches are given. Or is it kinda "do what you want."
If two teams play each other once, the general rule is the winner is seeded higher.
If two teams play each other twice, and go 1-1, what most people say is that the team winning the most recent contest is seeded higher.
Both last year and this year I am seeing the opposite happening in many sections:
Last year Maht/STA split the season series and Maht won the last game but with both teams having the same record, St Thomas was the top seed. This year Maht/SSP split and Maht won the last meeting with SSP getting the higher seed.
Last year Holy Angels tied Edina, Edina beat Burnsville and Holy Angels was 4th. Again this year, AHA beat Burnsville but is somehow seeded two spots behind them, even behind a team they didn't play.
This year Blake/Breck split with Breck winning the last game (by more than Blake won the first) and Blake was seeded higher.
This year Central/Hibbing played once, Central won and are seeded behind Hibbing.
I could probably throw LOW/TRF this year into this.
I'm not trying to say I'm "right" in seeding or smarter than the coaches, it is just very curious how this happens. These games are played to help with seeding, but it seems the results don't matter. Seems silly to me.
If two teams play each other once, the general rule is the winner is seeded higher.
If two teams play each other twice, and go 1-1, what most people say is that the team winning the most recent contest is seeded higher.
Both last year and this year I am seeing the opposite happening in many sections:
Last year Maht/STA split the season series and Maht won the last game but with both teams having the same record, St Thomas was the top seed. This year Maht/SSP split and Maht won the last meeting with SSP getting the higher seed.
Last year Holy Angels tied Edina, Edina beat Burnsville and Holy Angels was 4th. Again this year, AHA beat Burnsville but is somehow seeded two spots behind them, even behind a team they didn't play.
This year Blake/Breck split with Breck winning the last game (by more than Blake won the first) and Blake was seeded higher.
This year Central/Hibbing played once, Central won and are seeded behind Hibbing.
I could probably throw LOW/TRF this year into this.
I'm not trying to say I'm "right" in seeding or smarter than the coaches, it is just very curious how this happens. These games are played to help with seeding, but it seems the results don't matter. Seems silly to me.
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:42 pm
I think each section has their own way of seeding. I would think when the games are played has NO factor in the process. A split is a split. Some may use a formula using head to head, overall section record, record vs. next best team in the section, total goal differential, etc. Others may just let the coaches vote, after all they have probably seen most of the team play and just know by watching who belongs where. It seems as though the coaches usually come up with the right seedings.
As for your examples I would guess the deciding factors were the overall season each case (STA/Mahto, Mahto/SSP, Breck/Blake). For example Breck didn't have a single quality win all year up until Blake. Sure they played a tough schedule, and had they won just a couple of those games they would have more of a case, but Blake has a much more impressive overall resume.
In some cases, like 8A this year where everyone beats everyone, it is best to not even confuse yourself trying to figure out how they did seedings
As for your examples I would guess the deciding factors were the overall season each case (STA/Mahto, Mahto/SSP, Breck/Blake). For example Breck didn't have a single quality win all year up until Blake. Sure they played a tough schedule, and had they won just a couple of those games they would have more of a case, but Blake has a much more impressive overall resume.
In some cases, like 8A this year where everyone beats everyone, it is best to not even confuse yourself trying to figure out how they did seedings
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:50 pm
I would go further and say each coach has his own way of seeding.
There are some sections where there are basically teams from two conferences, you oftentimes see coaches from those conferences stick with each other. Some coaches will give more credit to teams they've played, others will go strictly by record.
There is no right or wrong way. Some coaches will try to play the system, putting one team higher than another that maybe is stronger, hoping that will help their own team in the seeding process. A lot of times that just bites them in the butt. A lot of coaches look with disfavor on a coach that tries to do that and will remember it in future years.
There are some sections where there are basically teams from two conferences, you oftentimes see coaches from those conferences stick with each other. Some coaches will give more credit to teams they've played, others will go strictly by record.
There is no right or wrong way. Some coaches will try to play the system, putting one team higher than another that maybe is stronger, hoping that will help their own team in the seeding process. A lot of times that just bites them in the butt. A lot of coaches look with disfavor on a coach that tries to do that and will remember it in future years.
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:34 am
Puck, let us know when you get it done. The BIGBOARD is the way to go.PuckU126 wrote:Done.MNHockeyFan wrote:puck, send me a pm with your email address and I can email one you can work with.PuckU126 wrote: Eagles93,
I'll be glad to do them...
Do you have a bracket skeleton for me to work off of?
Thanks again.
Seedings
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:35 am
HSHW:
As you can see, there is no one formula to seeding. In 2AA, the coaches review their teams season and then each coach seeds all other schools (not their own), 1-7. In case of a tie a revote occurs.
Items that had a big influence were:
1) Record in last 10 games
2) Strength of Schedule
3) Conference Record
Example, For 2AA:
Jefferson was 7-2-1 in last ten
Key wins over AV, Tonka, Eagan and tie w/ Burnsville (last 10 games)
Losses to Lakeville South & Burnsville
12-4-2 in SSC
AHA was 6-3-1 in last ten
No key wins in last ten games
Losses to BSM and Chaska
OT win over Chan (second time this happened) and tie to New Prague
12-1-1 in Missota
In reviewing major hockey blogs, Jefferson was rated higher in all three cases:
Minnhock (18 vs. 29), Mitch Hawker (19 vs. 30), and LPH (16 vs. 20)
Even though AHA they beat Burnsville and had a better record than Jefferson, their NC record was a non-impressive mark of 4-7, with 3 of the wins coming in late December at the Schwan’s Cup.
Sometimes it’s not who you beat. It’s when you play them and how you are playing in February…
As you can see, there is no one formula to seeding. In 2AA, the coaches review their teams season and then each coach seeds all other schools (not their own), 1-7. In case of a tie a revote occurs.
Items that had a big influence were:
1) Record in last 10 games
2) Strength of Schedule
3) Conference Record
Example, For 2AA:
Jefferson was 7-2-1 in last ten
Key wins over AV, Tonka, Eagan and tie w/ Burnsville (last 10 games)
Losses to Lakeville South & Burnsville
12-4-2 in SSC
AHA was 6-3-1 in last ten
No key wins in last ten games
Losses to BSM and Chaska
OT win over Chan (second time this happened) and tie to New Prague
12-1-1 in Missota
In reviewing major hockey blogs, Jefferson was rated higher in all three cases:
Minnhock (18 vs. 29), Mitch Hawker (19 vs. 30), and LPH (16 vs. 20)
Even though AHA they beat Burnsville and had a better record than Jefferson, their NC record was a non-impressive mark of 4-7, with 3 of the wins coming in late December at the Schwan’s Cup.
Sometimes it’s not who you beat. It’s when you play them and how you are playing in February…
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:38 am
I don't personally agree 100% with a split being a equal, but I understand the opinion. That being said, you can't seed them equally. So, usually the tie comes down to who won the second meeting, not usually the winner of the first.DubCHAGuy wrote:I think each section has their own way of seeding. I would think when the games are played has NO factor in the process. A split is a split. Some may use a formula using head to head, overall section record, record vs. next best team in the section, total goal differential, etc. Others may just let the coaches vote, after all they have probably seen most of the team play and just know by watching who belongs where. It seems as though the coaches usually come up with the right seedings.
As for your examples I would guess the deciding factors were the overall season each case (STA/Mahto, Mahto/SSP, Breck/Blake). For example Breck didn't have a single quality win all year up until Blake. Sure they played a tough schedule, and had they won just a couple of those games they would have more of a case, but Blake has a much more impressive overall resume.
In some cases, like 8A this year where everyone beats everyone, it is best to not even confuse yourself trying to figure out how they did seedings
Last year in my protests of 2AA seedings, many people were saying "they didn't play two of the teams, so it's hard to compare, play them and then they can compare." This year team A played team B, beat them, team B beat team C once and tied them once and team A is seeded behind teams B and C.
Why even play the games if winning doesn't matter? Yes, at the end of the day, the winner if the team who doesn't lose, but where you are seeded determines how easily that will happen.
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:25 am
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:31 pm
Here is a PDF version someone sent me that you can download. Probably easier for printing, etc.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/i1m8ij
http://www.sendspace.com/file/i1m8ij
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:58 pm
The coaches (most of the time) know more than the rest of us.
Coach of team A may have beat team B, but they know it was a fluke or the opponents first line was missing a forward because of injury or whatever.
They know Team B is better than Team C etc....
It is not a perfect system with perfect formulas....
but it is better than what you do because they watch the games, they know their team, they know Team A, B and C.
All sections vote (seed) all teams but their own. Most (if not all) toss out the high and low seed for each team and then calculate the numbers and you have 1, 2, 3 etc...
It is not that hard to understand.
In District 16 we use this method to seed our squirt and 10U girls for district play-offs because we do not make the younger kids travel allover the place for a home and home series. And we get it 90 to 95% correct.
The guidelines the coaches use are on the MSHSL site OR on the individual section site within the MSHSL site OR the section secretary has them.
But they are guidelines.
Coach of team A may have beat team B, but they know it was a fluke or the opponents first line was missing a forward because of injury or whatever.
They know Team B is better than Team C etc....
It is not a perfect system with perfect formulas....
but it is better than what you do because they watch the games, they know their team, they know Team A, B and C.
All sections vote (seed) all teams but their own. Most (if not all) toss out the high and low seed for each team and then calculate the numbers and you have 1, 2, 3 etc...
It is not that hard to understand.
In District 16 we use this method to seed our squirt and 10U girls for district play-offs because we do not make the younger kids travel allover the place for a home and home series. And we get it 90 to 95% correct.
The guidelines the coaches use are on the MSHSL site OR on the individual section site within the MSHSL site OR the section secretary has them.
But they are guidelines.
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:28 pm
Awesome... whoever did that, thanks!! Exactly what I was hoping - someone took my old template and updated for this year.karl(east) wrote:Here is a PDF version someone sent me that you can download. Probably easier for printing, etc.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/i1m8ij
Now... can we get a class A bracket?
2011 Class A bracket
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:55 pm
Here is a comprehensive bracket of all the 2011 Class A Sections.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/1wlqz8
http://www.sendspace.com/file/1wlqz8
Re: Seedings
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:01 pm
Maybe they should do last 11 games. Do you remember who Bloomington lost to 11 games ago? Hint: They are in section 2AAblueblood wrote: Jefferson was 7-2-1 in last ten
Key wins over AV, Tonka, Eagan and tie w/ Burnsville (last 10 games)
Losses to Lakeville South & Burnsville
12-4-2 in SSC
Re: Seedings
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:21 pm
starmvp wrote:Maybe they should do last 11 games. Do you remember who Bloomington lost to 11 games ago? Hint: They are in section 2AAblueblood wrote: Jefferson was 7-2-1 in last ten
Key wins over AV, Tonka, Eagan and tie w/ Burnsville (last 10 games)
Losses to Lakeville South & Burnsville
12-4-2 in SSC
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:41 pm
Thanks for your years of service Eagles! You always did a great job...Eagles93 wrote:Sorry, I won't be doing them anymore. I just don't have the time to put them together.
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:58 pm
Joe Lunardi should do the seeding.