Wisconsin vs Minnesota

wisminhockeyfan88 · Post by **wisminhockeyfan88** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:28 pm

We all know that minnesota high school produces more college and pro players. They have a larger number of elite hockey players too. So we know that minnesota has more good hockey players. The question that I want to debate is If you made a team with the top high school players from the whole state of minnesota and did the same with wisconsin, Who would win?
So basically what I am asking is who elite is the best?
Also have links to back up your numbers, if you want to prove your point

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:19 pm

Check out hockey hub for last seasons stats. One team from Wisconsin and 5 from Minnesota. That should pretty much answer the question.

hockeyforevr72 · Post by **hockeyforevr72** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:20 pm

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/standings/sh ... ason=44089

This is the recent NIT tourney, as you can see 1st and 2nd were both minnesota teams.

observer · Post by **observer** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:03 pm

Would be a very tight game. Many of the best WI players play Tier 1 AAA and weren't involved in the NIT Tourney. Their top players play a tough style and battle like crazy.

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:29 pm

The list of Minnesotans playing somewhere other than high school is pretty impressive as well, I'll still take the gopher state in this one.

High Flyer · Post by **High Flyer** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:45 am

wisminhockeyfan88 wrote:We all know that minnesota high school produces more college and pro players. They have a larger number of elite hockey players too. So we know that minnesota has more good hockey players. The question that I want to debate is If you made a team with the top high school players from the whole state of minnesota and did the same with wisconsin, Who would win?
So basically what I am asking is who elite is the best?
Also have links to back up your numbers, if you want to prove your point

high school age players or players who played high school hockey this year?

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:59 am

wisminhockeyfan88 wrote:We all know that minnesota high school produces more college and pro players. They have a larger number of elite hockey players too. So we know that minnesota has more good hockey players. The question that I want to debate is If you made a team with the top high school players from the whole state of minnesota and did the same with wisconsin, Who would win?
So basically what I am asking is who elite is the best?
Also have links to back up your numbers, if you want to prove your point

Wisconsin is third world in Hockey when compared to Minnesota. Your post is the only link needed.

TTpuckster · Post by **TTpuckster** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:25 pm

Looking at the poll,
Me tinks that dis bored may be a little biased, eh?

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:54 pm

TTpuckster wrote:Looking at the poll,
Me tinks that dis bored may be a little biased, eh?

If you ask what color the sky is, the poll result is blue and the other choice doesn't get a vote. I wouldn't say that's a biased answer.

Wisconsin turns out some very good players. They just don't have the depth to win this battle. Look at the number of kids playing Division I hockey as one indicator. Or the number selected in the NHL Draft.

wisminhockeyfan88 · Post by **wisminhockeyfan88** » Sun May 01, 2011 6:35 pm

High Flyer wrote:
wisminhockeyfan88 wrote:We all know that minnesota high school produces more college and pro players. They have a larger number of elite hockey players too. So we know that minnesota has more good hockey players. The question that I want to debate is If you made a team with the top high school players from the whole state of minnesota and did the same with wisconsin, Who would win?
So basically what I am asking is who elite is the best?
Also have links to back up your numbers, if you want to prove your point
high school age players or players who played high school hockey this year?

I mean kids who played high school not kids playing elsewhere that are highschool age and from wisconsin or minnnesota

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Mon May 02, 2011 7:34 am

O-townClown wrote:
TTpuckster wrote:Looking at the poll,
Me tinks that dis bored may be a little biased, eh?
If you ask what color the sky is, the poll result is blue and the other choice doesn't get a vote. I wouldn't say that's a biased answer.

Wisconsin turns out some very good players. They just don't have the depth to win this battle. Look at the number of kids playing Division I hockey as one indicator. Or the number selected in the NHL Draft.

I wonder how the poll would turn out were you to poll 50 Minnesotans and 50 cheese heads. The few WI hockey players I have known I doubt would vote for MN in a poll like this. A poll is different from fact.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon May 02, 2011 9:11 am

wisminhockeyfan88 wrote:
High Flyer wrote:
wisminhockeyfan88 wrote:We all know that minnesota high school produces more college and pro players. They have a larger number of elite hockey players too. So we know that minnesota has more good hockey players. The question that I want to debate is If you made a team with the top high school players from the whole state of minnesota and did the same with wisconsin, Who would win?
So basically what I am asking is who elite is the best?
Also have links to back up your numbers, if you want to prove your point
high school age players or players who played high school hockey this year?
I mean kids who played high school not kids playing elsewhere that are highschool age and from wisconsin or minnnesota

A Minnesota roster would have all high level D-1 recruits and multiple future NHL draft picks. Your turn.

MnMade-4-Life · Post by **MnMade-4-Life** » Mon May 02, 2011 10:03 am

MrBoDangles wrote:
wisminhockeyfan88 wrote:
High Flyer wrote: high school age players or players who played high school hockey this year?
I mean kids who played high school not kids playing elsewhere that are highschool age and from wisconsin or minnnesota
A Minnesota roster would have all high level D-1 recruits and multiple future NHL draft picks. Your turn.

That may possibly be the most sound arguement you have ever posted on this forum.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Mon May 02, 2011 10:19 am

HShockeywatcher wrote: A poll is different from fact.

A case needs to be made in order to say something is better than something else. Knowing that Mark Johnson, Joe Pavelski, and Phil Kessel are from Wisconsin is only a start.

Place the poll wherever you want. The biased result is if those in Wisconsin don't choose Minnesota, not Minnesotans that choose Minnesota.

The fact is that a team of elite Minnesota players wins this game. Or maybe not every game, but they do win a series.

What is your case that challenges that fact? You taking Wisconsin?

Who wins a football game? The best high schoolers from Texas, or Arizona. You know the answer. It doesn't indicate bias.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon May 02, 2011 1:09 pm

You guys are not answering his question actually. Everyone know MN has MORE of the elite players. That is not disputable. He is talking about one team. Take the top 15 skaters and top two goalies from both states and play a game or a series.

The MN NIT does not answer this question as way too many top kids (from both states probably) do not play in that tourney, and if it did then apparently WI is right there since it one last years MN NIT event, but it doesn't....

Also, in turn I think because the "model" is alot different in WI it's tough just say "only those who played high school hockey". Well in WI does that mean kids who played high school hockey as freshman or sophmore but now are playing in the USHL or the NDTP or MM AAA.... Or how about those who played MM AAA as freshman and sophmores (or even juniors) but now play H.S. hockey as juniors or seniors.

If you are talking about ONLY kids who played actual H.S. this past season then you obviously have to give it to MN. Though the WI team would not be terrible..... or third worldly. If you are talking about kids who were still in high school but not playing high school hockey (though were eligible) bu playing elsewhere I would say it would be a stalemate. WI would have 2 USNDTP kids, several USHL kids, then paired up with an elite group of H.S. and MM AAA kids, and lets face it if you are good enough to be D1 going against another team of D1 and both teams even have blue chip D1's on there, then to definitively say one would definitely be better than the other is pretty tough. Again not disputing that MN could produe yet another team that would probably be right there on par and WI could not but that isn't the question as I read it. Some people misunderstand and some how think quantity defines this answer but it does not. Just because MN has a 16th or 17th or 18th skater that is jsut as good as their #2 skater does not help this team because you only get 15 and let's say WI does not have a 16th skater that is as good as their #2 skater, it doesn't matter as they only need 15 in this hypothetical example, so as long as they can produce 15 of that caliber it doesn't matter that MN can produce 40 of them. Make sense?

observer · Post by **observer** » Mon May 02, 2011 2:18 pm

I get it and agree. Top 15 high school age players.
This would be a very tight game, or series.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Mon May 02, 2011 2:25 pm

JSR wrote: it doesn't matter as they only need 15 in this hypothetical example, so as long as they can produce 15 of that caliber it doesn't matter that MN can produce 40 of them. Make sense?

Your post does make sense. But yes, I did answer the question. I voted Minnesota and explained why - citing depth and using a measure of drafted players or NCAA scholarships as my rationale.

There is a lot of truth to your post because it explains how small nations like Slovenia can compete in soccer with much larger countries.

Here is why there isn't enough relief for Wisconsin: the question was a HS team, not NHL. It becomes easier for the smaller country (or state in this case) to compete with the big ones if they have a big age window to form the team. For the HS age all-star game you are looking at kids that are 17-18.

When Minnesota wins a game like this, the comments would be that the top Wisconsin players are just as good, but that the state doesn't have quite enough of them. In other words, would you take Manitoba against Ontario?

SPUDNUT · Post by **SPUDNUT** » Mon May 02, 2011 3:32 pm

wisminhockeyfan88 wrote:The question that I want to debate is If you made a team with the top high school players from the whole state of minnesota and did the same with wisconsin, Who would win?

You didn't distinguish whether it would be a single game or a series. A single game could come down to which way the puck bounces, who gets the breaks, who's having a bad day, etc. - same as any game in any sport. A series would be another story !

From the "National High School Hockey Rankings" of this past season:

Teams in the top 100 nationally -

MN 52

MI 17

MA 8

ND 4

NJ 4

RI 4

WI 4

IL 3

PAEA 2

CT 1

OH 1

You do the math.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Mon May 02, 2011 3:45 pm

O-townClown wrote:
JSR wrote: it doesn't matter as they only need 15 in this hypothetical example, so as long as they can produce 15 of that caliber it doesn't matter that MN can produce 40 of them. Make sense?
Your post does make sense. But yes, I did answer the question. I voted Minnesota and explained why - citing depth and using a measure of drafted players or NCAA scholarships as my rationale.

There is a lot of truth to your post because it explains how small nations like Slovenia can compete in soccer with much larger countries.

Here is why there isn't enough relief for Wisconsin: the question was a HS team, not NHL. It becomes easier for the smaller country (or state in this case) to compete with the big ones if they have a big age window to form the team. For the HS age all-star game you are looking at kids that are 17-18.

When Minnesota wins a game like this, the comments would be that the top Wisconsin players are just as good, but that the state doesn't have quite enough of them. In other words, would you take Manitoba against Ontario?

I think the widnow is slightly larger at 16 to 19 year olds, not just 17-18 year olds. And I repeat, if it is JUST kids who actually played high school hockey then I agree WI does not get the relief they need. BUT if we include high school aged kids who are actively in high school but playing elsewhere (ie USNDTP, USHL, mm, MM etc...) then they could field 15 that are on par and could split a series with MN.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:12 pm

JSR: I understand what you are saying. And this obviously has to include the kids playing Junior (or Midget) hockey. Wisconsin has them, and so does Minnesota.

However.

Age 16 to 19? Really? Kids graduate HS at age 18 in almost all cases. So there go almost all the 19-year-olds. Seniors are 18 and Juniors are 17...if you are counting on fielding Sophomores to go against the top Minnesota kids that kind of makes my point on depth.

It seems like the Ryder Cup when it was just U.S. vs. GB & I. Sure, the Brits could get one once in a while, but it wasn't that competitive. Add in Europe and it was even or even tilted the other way. To hang you would need to give Wisconsin a few surrounding states - North Dakota, Colorado, and Illinois.

Boom. Even series.

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue May 03, 2011 10:39 am

O-townClown wrote:JSR: I understand what you are saying. And this obviously has to include the kids playing Junior (or Midget) hockey. Wisconsin has them, and so does Minnesota.

However.

Age 16 to 19? Really? Kids graduate HS at age 18 in almost all cases. So there go almost all the 19-year-olds. Seniors are 18 and Juniors are 17...if you are counting on fielding Sophomores to go against the top Minnesota kids that kind of makes my point on depth.

It seems like the Ryder Cup when it was just U.S. vs. GB & I. Sure, the Brits could get one once in a while, but it wasn't that competitive. Add in Europe and it was even or even tilted the other way. To hang you would need to give Wisconsin a few surrounding states - North Dakota, Colorado, and Illinois.

Boom. Even series.

Yes 19. Many kids do not start kindegarten til they are six anymore, that means 19 when they graduate. I know quite a few 19 year olds graduating this June. Not saying it's a majority but they are out there and would count if they were still in high school. And for 15 or 16 year olds, not the majority by any means but are you honestly saying that Ian McCoshen has not proven in the USHL that he can hang with anyone of high school age/eligibility? Hmmm.... I think he can.

I think you underestimate the top 15 skaters and two goalies in WI or do not realize who they are since they are spreadout all over the place. WI would not need ND, or Colo, or Illinois to fill out a one team roster to hang with MN. The 6 defense would be almost entirely comprised of USHL or USNTDP kids with D1 scholarships, several of them NHL draft picks, and actually defenseman are quite deep in talent in the high school levels for WI born players right now, atleast deep for us that is so there are guys who are at the top of the game with D1 scholarships who would not make the top 6. Starting goalie would be arguably the best goalie in the Elite League. 7 of the 9 forwards would be compromised of 2 kids who play in the OHL, four USHL kids (with D1 schollies), and one kid who actually played for his high school but is likely going right to the Badgers next season, he also was one of the top forwards period in the Elite League and MN NIT this year. So WI only needs 1 more goalie for backup purposes and two forwards to round out this hypothetical squad and we have not even really touched Team Wisconsin U18 or U16 or the AAA MM or mm squads yet. Don't get me wrong, WI cannot put together three of these teams like MN could, and WI just barely gets the 17 kids needed to play at that level but they do get there and they'd hang just fine, even series with no out of state help, though just barely.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue May 03, 2011 1:28 pm

I'm impressed that Wisconsin can field a great team. So does Minnesota. I never implied a 15-year-old can't play in the USHL. What you'll see, however, is that when you go looking for a Junior player to put on the team you get a kid with a lot of potential. Minnesota retrieves a HS senior like Ben Marshall (already drafted) or Andy Welinski (likely drafted in a couple months). You find a kid playing in the OHL and Minnesota brings Seth Ambroz, a top contributor in the USHL.

Here is a rough idea of who could play. Of course, I'm leaving out dozens of quality players - a point you readily concede. Adding one at the expense of someone listed below will not weaken the team.

You get the point.

G

Matt McNeely (93) - NTDP
Collin Olson (94) - NTDP
Alex Lyon (Sr) - Lake of the Woods
Adam Wilcox (92) - Green Bay

D

Max Everson (Sr/93) - Edina/NTDP
Brady Skjei (94) - NTDP
Matt Van Voorhis (93) - NTDP
Eddie Wittchow (Sr) - Burnsville
Andy Welinski (93) - Green Bay
Mike Reilly (Sr) - Shattuck-St. Mary's
Ben Marshall (Sr) - Omaha

F

Travis Boyd (93) - NTDP
Dan Carlson (93) - NTDP
Kyle Osterberg (94) - NTDP
Seth Ambroz (93) - Omaha Lancers
Mario Lucia (Jr/93) - Wayzata/NTDP
Tony Camaranesi (Sr) - Wayzata
Steven Fogarty (Sr) - Edina
Joseph LaBate (Sr) - Holy Angels
Kyle Rau (Sr) - Eden Prairie

JSR · Post by **JSR** » Tue May 03, 2011 4:06 pm

O-townClown wrote:I'm impressed that Wisconsin can field a great team. So does Minnesota. I never implied a 15-year-old can't play in the USHL. What you'll see, however, is that when you go looking for a Junior player to put on the team you get a kid with a lot of potential. Minnesota retrieves a HS senior like Ben Marshall (already drafted) or Andy Welinski (likely drafted in a couple months). You find a kid playing in the OHL and Minnesota brings Seth Ambroz, a top contributor in the USHL.

Here is a rough idea of who could play. Of course, I'm leaving out dozens of quality players - a point you readily concede. Adding one at the expense of someone listed below will not weaken the team.

You get the point.

G

Matt McNeely (93) - NTDP
Collin Olson (94) - NTDP
Alex Lyon (Sr) - Lake of the Woods
Adam Wilcox (92) - Green Bay

D

Max Everson (Sr/93) - Edina/NTDP
Brady Skjei (94) - NTDP
Matt Van Voorhis (93) - NTDP
Eddie Wittchow (Sr) - Burnsville
Andy Welinski (93) - Green Bay
Mike Reilly (Sr) - Shattuck-St. Mary's
Ben Marshall (Sr) - Omaha

F

Travis Boyd (93) - NTDP
Dan Carlson (93) - NTDP
Kyle Osterberg (94) - NTDP
Seth Ambroz (93) - Omaha Lancers
Mario Lucia (Jr/93) - Wayzata/NTDP
Tony Camaranesi (Sr) - Wayzata
Steven Fogarty (Sr) - Edina
Joseph LaBate (Sr) - Holy Angels
Kyle Rau (Sr) - Eden Prairie

An impressive list, never said it wouldn't be, and you could probably add twice that to it as I've already admitted.

To some of your other points. Some would argue the OHL is a higher caliber league than the USHL so that may or may not negate your point about that. And some of these WI guys are top contributors in the USHL as well. As for potential, this WI list contains current NHL draft picks, and a couple more in the up coming draft (Navin as one example). As for the "potential" of the other guys, to be playing in the USHL while still in high school you need to be pretty darn good, so lets just leave that at that and not split hairs.

G
- Saxton Soley (Sr) - Eau Claire / TW
- Nick Schreiter (95) - Madison Capitols AAA
- Eric Smith (92/Sr.) - Middleton H.S. / TW

D
- Joe Fiala (93/Sr.) - USNTDP
- Jake McCabe (93/Jr. though accelerated studies to graduate this year) - USNTDP
- Will Butcher (95/Soph) - AAA Capitals / USNTDP
- Jordan Schmaltz (93/Sr) - Fargo USHL
- Aaron Harstad (92/Sr.) - USHL / starts at CC in the fall
- Tim Davison (94/Jr.) - Notre Dame G.B. / TW (turned down USNTDP & USHL offers to return to HS for one more year)
- Ian McCoshen (95/Soph) - Waterloo USHL
- Cliff Watson (Sr) - Appleton H.S. / TW / tOSU recruit

F
- Peter Maric (92/Sr) - Cedar Rapids USHL
- Brad Navin (92/Sr) - Waupaca HS / TW / 3rd in Elite LEague in scoring/ UW recruit likely to go right to UW next season (he is right on par with Labate or Cameranesi)
- Jakob Batcha (93/Sr) - Fargo USHL
- Nick Szopinski (93/Sr) - Beaver Dam HS / TW / WI Wilderness SIJHL
- Trevor Morbeck (93/Sr) - OHL
- Alex Racino (93/Sr) - OHL
- Brett Skibba (93/Sr) - Middleton HS / TW
- Simon Leahy (92/Sr.) - Univ. School Milw / TW (tied with Rau for 8th in pts in Elite League)
- Kyle Lee (93/Sr) - Wausau West H.S. / (formerly Schattuck STM) / TW
- Lane King (93/Sr) - Chicago Mission AAA
- Kyle Schmidt (94/Jr.) - Milwaukee Jr. Admirals AAA

Please, note I only included 4 AAA MM kids as I honestly don't know them as well as I do the high school, junior and USNTDP kids but I am sure there are a few more out there that could likely improve this roster.

Anyway, I see an advantage in goal for MN, other than that, honestly I would actually take the WI defenseman and I think the forwards are pretty darn close, maybe slight edge to MN but only by the slightest of hairs. Like I said before, would not need the other states to "hang" and this team would do just fine in a 7 game series with the team you listed above. Probably come down to goal tending where I admit MN seems ot have the edge on paper but you never know. I could see MN winning a seven game series 4-3 and it going all seven in tight games.

Now just to make sure, I get that if we put together a second team after this, the MN 2nd team would wax the WI 2nd team from here to the moon, sweep them and probably do it without breaking a sweat, but that first team for WI would be very tough.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed May 04, 2011 12:15 am

Obviously the Minnesota list is going to be about the same every year. Not the names, but the team strength. Like Canada's team for the World Juniors.

Do you feel this group from Wisconsin is a really good group coming through, or is it like this every year?

Yes, the OHL is a peg above the USHL. That said, you are picking guys that are simply on the teams and not setting the world on fire. (Don't take this the wrong way.) Are middle-of-the-pack guys there better than the upper-end of the USHL? No. Ambroz - and others - could play up there too.

Sure you want to list Batcha? One point this year in the USHL.

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Wed May 04, 2011 9:34 am

To some degree I'll have to agree that a game between the top two teams would be very competeitive. As brought up earlier I think you could make a very compelling case that MN could field another team that might compete very well with either the MN or WI team. The hypothetical roster for MN is oustanding and yet there are some tremendous players omitted. The 2nd and 3rd leading scorers from the elite league are not here along with kids like Austyn Young, Fasching, Michealson, Zajac, Skirbich, Johnson, Archibald..the whole first line fron Duluth East. On defense you've got Seeler, Brodzinski, Molenaar, Kolquist and several others and Lindgren in the net...and still I'm sure I've missed many more. Its great fun speculating on who might win but the depth of talent in MN makes me think MN would have the upper hand.

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