HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Who wins the race for #2 and why.
1. Hill
2.RV
3.WB
4.MV
5.Tartan
6.SW
7.NSP
8.como

What we are really talking about is seeds 2 thru 8. Even though Tartan plays in a weak conf. (except Hill and ST. Thomas), they will still have a very good win/loss record. I would expect the winner of the Sub. East and Tartan to be the #2 and 3 seed. From there on it is still a crap shoot. WBL needs to win out the season, or at least beat MV, Cretin and Roseville to be any higher than #4 or 5 seed.

Head-to-Head games should come first in this analysis, then results against common opponents, followed by OA record/other quality wins/SOS considerations I would guess...

HM is the obvious #1 as of now

From there, I'd want to see how the other teams played against each other and how they did against common opponents.

Maybe that analysis would be enough to determine things, but I assume it still comes down to a coach vote - and so there is always some human element of how all these data are interpreted.

KRACH says (as of this AM):
http://www.bgoski.com/b/KRACH_SEC.htm

RK TEAM RECORD RATING CL S
1 Hill-Murray 15-2-1 1724.901 AA 4
10 Tartan 15-2-0 246.570 AA 4
24 Mounds View 11-5-2 76.335 AA 4
36 White Bear Lake 8-8-1 47.353 AA 4
46 Roseville 9-7-2 32.537 AA 4
54 Stillwater 7-9-1 25.707 AA 4
65 North St. Paul 8-9-1 14.130 AA 4
122 St. Paul Como Park 8-6-0 1.663 AA 4

that ranking is a joke. I can't seem to find any other ranking that has them in the top 15. There may be one out there I just can't find it.
Why is that? Maybe because of their SOS? That may be why the other rankings have most of the SEC ahead of them.

ghshockeyfan wrote:Head-to-Head games should come first in this analysis, then results against common opponents, followed by OA record/other quality wins/SOS considerations I would guess...

HM is the obvious #1 as of now

From there, I'd want to see how the other teams played against each other and how they did against common opponents.

Maybe that analysis would be enough to determine things, but I assume it still comes down to a coach vote - and so there is always some human element of how all these data are interpreted.

KRACH says (as of this AM):
http://www.bgoski.com/b/KRACH_SEC.htm

RK TEAM RECORD RATING CL S
1 Hill-Murray 15-2-1 1724.901 AA 4
10 Tartan 15-2-0 246.570 AA 4
24 Mounds View 11-5-2 76.335 AA 4
36 White Bear Lake 8-8-1 47.353 AA 4
46 Roseville 9-7-2 32.537 AA 4
54 Stillwater 7-9-1 25.707 AA 4
65 North St. Paul 8-9-1 14.130 AA 4
122 St. Paul Como Park 8-6-0 1.663 AA 4

That looks pretty close, maybe filp flopWhite bear and roseville depending on how the Bears do tonight, and when they play Roseville. If they win both, maybe they get the 3 seed. Tartan will be in the top 3, unless they go in the tank for the rest of the season.

inthetwine wrote:

ghshockeyfan wrote:Head-to-Head games should come first in this analysis, then results against common opponents, followed by OA record/other quality wins/SOS considerations I would guess...

HM is the obvious #1 as of now

From there, I'd want to see how the other teams played against each other and how they did against common opponents.

Maybe that analysis would be enough to determine things, but I assume it still comes down to a coach vote - and so there is always some human element of how all these data are interpreted.

KRACH says (as of this AM):
http://www.bgoski.com/b/KRACH_SEC.htm

RK TEAM RECORD RATING CL S
1 Hill-Murray 15-2-1 1724.901 AA 4
10 Tartan 15-2-0 246.570 AA 4
24 Mounds View 11-5-2 76.335 AA 4
36 White Bear Lake 8-8-1 47.353 AA 4
46 Roseville 9-7-2 32.537 AA 4
54 Stillwater 7-9-1 25.707 AA 4
65 North St. Paul 8-9-1 14.130 AA 4
122 St. Paul Como Park 8-6-0 1.663 AA 4

That looks pretty close, maybe filp flopWhite bear and roseville depending on how the Bears do tonight, and when they play Roseville. If they win both, maybe they get the 3 seed. Tartan will be in the top 3, unless they go in the tank for the rest of the season.

No offense to Tartan, but they play no one all year other than Hill and STA. Then they go and get blown out by both of them. I have trouble giving them a really high seed when they play weak competition and don't impress against better competition.

I don't think anybody takes that ranking serious. Maybe if you can post another ranking that has them in the top 15 It might change my mind. Don't get me wrong I'm not taking anything away from what they have done. It's just the teams they played its hard to put them that high.

Fwdguy wrote:I don't think anybody takes that ranking serious. Maybe if you can post another ranking that has them in the top 15 It might change my mind. Don't get me wrong I'm not taking anything away from what they have done. It's just the teams they played its hard to put them that high.

They play only two 4AA teams all year, and barely beat North St. Paul who isn't very overwhelming themselves. They have a game against Duluth East at the end of the year which might help get a good idea how good they are. Of course beating Hill tonight, or STA down the road would help their cause. I just have trouble ranking them any higher than 4, because of their weak schedule. I wish they played more 4AA teams to get a better idea of how good they are.

WBLHockeyfan04 wrote:

Fwdguy wrote:I don't think anybody takes that ranking serious. Maybe if you can post another ranking that has them in the top 15 It might change my mind. Don't get me wrong I'm not taking anything away from what they have done. It's just the teams they played its hard to put them that high.

They play only two 4AA teams all year, and barely beat North St. Paul who isn't very overwhelming themselves. They have a game against Duluth East at the end of the year which might help get a good idea how good they are. Of course beating Hill tonight, or STA down the road would help their cause. I just have trouble ranking them any higher than 4, because of their weak schedule. I wish they played more 4AA teams to get a better idea of how good they are.

I understand the weak schedlule thing, but when the coaches meet, a 20 and 5 team will get ranked higher than a 12/12 team no matter who each team played.

1) Hill Murray

2) Mounds View

3) White Bear Lake

4) Stillwatwater

5) Roseville

6) Tartan

7) North St Paul

Johnson

9) Como Park

inthetwine wrote:

WBLHockeyfan04 wrote:

Fwdguy wrote:I don't think anybody takes that ranking serious. Maybe if you can post another ranking that has them in the top 15 It might change my mind. Don't get me wrong I'm not taking anything away from what they have done. It's just the teams they played its hard to put them that high.

They play only two 4AA teams all year, and barely beat North St. Paul who isn't very overwhelming themselves. They have a game against Duluth East at the end of the year which might help get a good idea how good they are. Of course beating Hill tonight, or STA down the road would help their cause. I just have trouble ranking them any higher than 4, because of their weak schedule. I wish they played more 4AA teams to get a better idea of how good they are.

I understand the weak schedlule thing, but when the coaches meet, a 20 and 5 team will get ranked higher than a 12/12 team no matter who each team played.

You're probably right, but if the only good teams they play are beating them by 6 or 7 goals that has to mean something, right? I think 2-6 is going to be a crap shoot anyways. I think any of those teams regardless of seed could beat the other. It will just depend on who's probably playing the best hockey going in, and who has the hottest goaltender.

chester1991 wrote:1) Hill Murray

2) Mounds View

3) White Bear Lake

4) Stillwatwater

5) Roseville

6) Tartan

7) North St Paul

Johnson

9) Como Park

Johnson is no longer in 4AA and I think you have MV a little high. Maybe if they start winning again they might move up but till then I don't see it.

1. HM
2. WB
3. MV
4. Tartan
5. Roseville
6. Still
7. NSP
8. Como

MV/WB may end up switching with each other.

I think the section coaches will focus more on the following than just record alone when dealing with section seeding:

Head-to-Head games should come first in this analysis, then results against common opponents, followed by OA record/other quality wins/SOS considerations I would guess...

I don't know enough about the Head-to-Head games and results against common opponents for everyone outside of HM.

My guess is that if - for example - others beat NSP by a wider margin than Tartan, then they may get the bump above Tartan. But, I also keep in mind that Tartan/NSP is their rivalry game and usually all bets are off when you start talking rivalries in any sport...

I'm guessing many other section teams outside of Tartan & HM play each other primarily being in the same Conf. So that should help differentiate the pack and then it's just a matter of how Tartan fits in based on Common Opponents I'd guess - even if very few and one being a rivalry game for them.

1. HM
2. WB
3. MV
4. Tartan
5. Roseville
6. Still
7. NSP
8. Como
I have to agree with PPG on this one. Recent history of Tartan ranked above 4 in this section has not created any optimism to get a trip to the Fair Grounds. At least they don't have to face Moose in the first game this year.

1 HM
2 MV
3 SW
4 Tartan
5 RV
6 WB
7 NSP
8 COmo

hockeymannorth wrote:1 HM
2 MV
3 SW
4 Tartan
5 RV
6 WB
7 NSP
8 COmo

Is this a joke? How is WB 6th!?

WBLHockeyfan04 wrote:

Fwdguy wrote:I don't think anybody takes that ranking serious. Maybe if you can post another ranking that has them in the top 15 It might change my mind. Don't get me wrong I'm not taking anything away from what they have done. It's just the teams they played its hard to put them that high.

They play only two 4AA teams all year, and barely beat North St. Paul who isn't very overwhelming themselves. They have a game against Duluth East at the end of the year which might help get a good idea how good they are. Of course beating Hill tonight, or STA down the road would help their cause. I just have trouble ranking them any higher than 4, because of their weak schedule. I wish they played more 4AA teams to get a better idea of how good they are.

So why don't Roseville, WBL, Moundsview and Stillwater schedule them? Instead of complaining that they'll get seeded high without playing teams, why don't the games happen?

I don't know anything, but I highly doubt Tartan would turn down all 4 match ups and I highly doubt none of the 4 could use the game on their schedules.

Hill Murray has no reason for the games, but it makes a lot of sense for both Tartan and the other 4. Anyone know why the games don't happen?

HShockeywatcher wrote:

WBLHockeyfan04 wrote:

Fwdguy wrote:I don't think anybody takes that ranking serious. Maybe if you can post another ranking that has them in the top 15 It might change my mind. Don't get me wrong I'm not taking anything away from what they have done. It's just the teams they played its hard to put them that high.

They play only two 4AA teams all year, and barely beat North St. Paul who isn't very overwhelming themselves. They have a game against Duluth East at the end of the year which might help get a good idea how good they are. Of course beating Hill tonight, or STA down the road would help their cause. I just have trouble ranking them any higher than 4, because of their weak schedule. I wish they played more 4AA teams to get a better idea of how good they are.

So why don't Roseville, WBL, Moundsview and Stillwater schedule them? Instead of complaining that they'll get seeded high without playing teams, why don't the games happen?

I don't know anything, but I highly doubt Tartan would turn down all 4 match ups and I highly doubt none of the 4 could use the game on their schedules.

Hill Murray has no reason for the games, but it makes a lot of sense for both Tartan and the other 4. Anyone know why the games don't happen?

Well, no disrespect to Tartan, but they haven't been a consistent contender in 4AA in recent years.

MV's schedule: 18 conference games, 3 for a holiday tourney, Benilde (their one and only chance to test themselves against an elite team), a 2-for-1 road trip to play 2 Duluth schools, and 4AA North St. Paul, who has been better than Tartan the past few years.

Stilly: 18 conference games, 3 for a holiday tourney, 3 big-time non-conference opponents in BSM, Tonka, and Wayzata, and a good Cloquet team that I think they've been playing regularly for years.

WBL: 18 conference games, 2 for a holiday tourney, 3 longstanding series with elite teams (Hill, Edina, DE), plus another longstanding series with Cloquet, and then Lakeville South.

Not too hard to see why they haven't found room for Tartan.

karl(east) wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote: Well, no disrespect to Tartan, but they haven't been a consistent contender in 4AA in recent years.

MV's schedule: 18 conference games, 3 for a holiday tourney, Benilde (their one and only chance to test themselves against an elite team), a 2-for-1 road trip to play 2 Duluth schools, and 4AA North St. Paul, who has been better than Tartan the past few years.

Stilly: 18 conference games, 3 for a holiday tourney, 3 big-time non-conference opponents in BSM, Tonka, and Wayzata, and a good Cloquet team that I think they've been playing regularly for years.

WBL: 18 conference games, 2 for a holiday tourney, 3 longstanding series with elite teams (Hill, Edina, DE), plus another longstanding series with Cloquet, and then Lakeville South.

Not too hard to see why they haven't found room for Tartan.

You could say the same thing about Roseville, and I don't disagree with your assessment of their section history. The being said, with section seeding being so important for everyone in a section with Hill, it would seem to make sense to schedule the other team in the section.

Of course Tartan could try to get in the Schwan's Cup and would likely play one or two 4AA teams...

If they beat Lourdes, I have a tough time seeing a team whose only losses on the season are to St Thomas, Hill and [presumably] East being ranked low. Plus, if you don't think they're that good, then having them get a high seed would only be good for the team they get paired against...

Well said, loses to only Hill and St. Thomas, and wins agianst othe teams no matter how strong, bode well in seedings.

It's pretty clear that there isn't a good yard stick to measure Tartan against the other 4AA teams. That said, at least this year I don't think it makes a huge difference. There are five teams that don't have a lot of daylight between them. So it's an interesting debate and some game results the next few weeks may clear things up, but in the end I don't think it matters a great deal. Whether you draw Hill in the semis or in the final doesn't much matter.

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:It's pretty clear that there isn't a good yard stick to measure Tartan against the other 4AA teams. That said, at least this year I don't think it makes a huge difference. There are five teams that don't have a lot of daylight between them. So it's an interesting debate and some game results the next few weeks may clear things up, but in the end I don't think it matters a great deal. Whether you draw Hill in the semis or in the final doesn't much matter.

It matters to WBL, other than 1 year when NSP upset Hill, they are the only team that has a history of doing it!

inthetwine wrote:

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:It's pretty clear that there isn't a good yard stick to measure Tartan against the other 4AA teams. That said, at least this year I don't think it makes a huge difference. There are five teams that don't have a lot of daylight between them. So it's an interesting debate and some game results the next few weeks may clear things up, but in the end I don't think it matters a great deal. Whether you draw Hill in the semis or in the final doesn't much matter.

It matters to WBL, other than 1 year when NSP upset Hill, they are the only team that has a history of doing it!

Your forgetting Park. And though it wasn't an upset, Centennial. Park and North St. Paul (twice) and White Bear (not sure how many times) beat Hill in the semis. So getting the #2 seed isn't everything. I stand by my point.

White Bear will end up #2.