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Does anyone know about the Jr Chill program? I understand they are playing with ineligible players in summer tournaments and the people who I have talked to say that people have been aware of this for years. I cannot believe parents are in on it. Are there any Jr Chill families out there that are aware of this?

What do you mean ineligible? As in players that are too old for the division that they are in? If it is happening in the Jr Chill organization I can't imagine that your are going to hear from any Jr Chill parents.

I believe they have 99's on their U12 team and 01's on their U10 team. A tournament they played in this spring at the U12 level said only 2000's and 2001's - yet they played in it. And I believe the U10 level did not allow 01's yet they played in that too. And yes, they have been doing it for years. They use illegal kids then they put the banners (1st, 2nd, 3rd) up in their arena to "advertise" how successful their program is. Anything to a make buck, I guess?

I did hear privately from one of their parents who openly admits that this is and has been going on for years They don't seem to have a problem with it. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone, "my kids team cheats to win but we love the program and it's not about winning, we don't care about that". Are you kidding me?? if winning isn't important then why would you cheat to get it done??? so let me get this right, you think its ok for your OLDER girls to play down and beat younger girls, stealing their opportunities and experiences? Wow! check the water in Orono because things are not right. If my kid so much as played on a team that cheated to win I would hang my head in shame, not celebrate it with a banner in my rink. They're lucky the rest of us aren't doing it. They wouldn't want to play my older girls, I'm guessing it wouldn't be such a "fun" experience for them when my older girls ran them out of the rink. Good luck to them in the future, but understand people are either going to start calling you out for it or playing illegal players against you either way you're going to end up embarrassed

That should never happen. Cheating isn't ok and the team organizers and parents should be totally ashamed. Not sure the players feel real good about it either. Tournament directors beware. Probably a numbers thang but still not ok. Develop away but just don't play in tourneys. Or, challenge the girls and play up a level which is very common among good girls teams.

I am pretty sure that the parents are not totally aware of what they are taking part in. There is confusion about summer girls hockey. People think that because it's called U10, U12, etc that it follows association eligibility - IT DOESN'T! Summer AAA hockey follows USA hockey as it is not sanctioned by MN hockey. USA hockey rules for U10, U12, go by birth year. This year U10's are 2003's and 2002's. U12's are 2000's and 2001's. There is no interpretation here. I have to believe that the Chill program relies on the confusion surrounding AAA eligibility with girls to continue to pull this off. The tournaments are to blame as well. Why aren't they checking birth certificates? The Chill couldn't get away with this if the tournaments were doing their job. I noticed that the Chill seem to stay away from the tournaments that do check BC's (Meltdown, International Cup, etc.) By the way, if it's not about the wins can you please take down the banners? Just the ones you cheated to get, oh yeah, that would be all of them

They do talk out of both sides of their mouth - its not about winning (see their web-site) but we will cheat and hang banners from the rafters. Ironically, they did play in the Independent Tournament this year and on the web-site for the tournament it stresses, you won't get away with cheating, yet Birth Certificates are not checked and so teams like the Chill come away with hardware (2nd place). So Tournament Directors are somewhat to blame.

But get the business model for the AAA program - we will claim we are about development and that winning is not important, then cheat so we finish high in tournaments and get more recognition. We will go so far that we will "flaunt" our success with banners from the ceiling. That way more kids sign up for our program and we can make more money. Parents will look the other way (or claim ignorance) because we are winning. That is a great message to our kids, isn't it? Sounds like Major League Baseball

I'm new to all of this so if posting my reply to a private message is wrong, please let me know. This topic is obviously driving me crazy. Here is my response to a private message sent to me by a Chill parent:

I don't have anything against you personally and I'm sure your daughter enjoys the program, but my issue is SIMPLE the Jr Chill program CHEATS! They are cheating in youth hockey, there is no excuse for it. These people are responsible to mold and influence young children and they have decided cheating is ok. The quality of their practice is not relevant to me. They cheat and then they use the results of their cheating to promote their program to make more money. You don't see the problem with that? No moral dilemma there? Again, at some point you will have to explain to your daughter that her team is cheating when she is pulled out of a tournament she was not eligible to play in. Seems like a tough position to put an unsuspecting kid in. I realize most of you parents are just along for the ride but don't think that because you choose to look the other way that you are not part of the problem.

Here's the link to their website.

http://www.oronoicearena.com/page/show/ ... aaa-hockey

They've done a nice job of rounding up a lot of players for the AAA season and that's a good thing.

The rule for girls summer AAA hockey is to play at the level they'll play at in the fall. 10s that finished winter 10U move to 12U for the summer. It does mean splitting them up every year. A number of girls AAA teams have moved to single birthyear to keep teams together and eliminate the need to shuffle teams every season. Easier to change 1 or 2 players each year than it is to find 6 new players. With more than one team at most levels they may have enough to go single birthyear right now. Start by laying the single birthyear teams out on paper to see where you're at. Where the club has holes.

The Chill should shuffle their teams right now. Or, start to play up so the older girls are playing at the level they should be instead of embarrassing them by cheating. They went with a path that was easier for them when they should had complied with the rules. They should have used the rules as the guidline to form the teams. Cheating is a no-no. Pretty embarrassing for the parents and players which is confusing to me. Let the shuffle happen as it ends up benefitting the players to break up teams between winter and summer. Suzie can't play with Katie all the time. Get over it. The coaches and club director made a big mistake thinking this is ok. Why on earth would you cheat with your kid?

The rule for girls summer AAA hockey is to play at the level they'll play at in the fall. 10s that finished winter 10U move to 12U for the summer.

That's not the case, but part of the confusion. HH has it right.

A couple things:

I heard the Chill had talked to the tourney director about the older kids and had it OK'd. If so, it's not really cheating (maybe still not OK, but not cheating) - their tourny, their rules.

If the other programs aren't about winning, then they got the bonus of being able to play against a couple kids that may have been playing at a slightly higher level than some of the other girls. Otherwise, I'm kind of reading, "these girls were trophy hunting with older girls, denying our girls of the trophy they were hunting."

I get the letter of the law - 99's should be playing U14, not U12, however, I don't think this is any more a violation of the spirit of the law than a team that calls themselves 01's, but has a bunch of 2000's on the team; it's a misrepresentation of the program, even though it meets tourney criterea.

If 2000's are playing on an 01 team in a tournament where 2000's are of the correct age that's fine. If 2000's are playing on an 01 team in an 01 tournament that is called cheating. I don't understand how there can be any confusion or gray area here? are you saying the Chill are ok to cheat to get wins because other programs are trying to win too? That logic seems a little flawed. If they did have tourney permission to do it then it should have been advertised for everyone to see. The tourney rules clearly stated which birth years were eligible to play at which levels. If its true, then yes, the tournament is to blame as well but it doesn't absolve a program that does this constantly. The real problem with cheating is where does it end? Should we just hope the Chill have the good judgment to not cheat too much? What if they start playing 2000's at the U10 (2002/2003) level because they somehow justify that as well? I guess we should be ok with it because they're keeping their cheating somewhat under control? Their U10 head coaches kid is a 2001 - think about that. they actually went into a season with no intention of playing kids at the right level from the start. Again forget about wins and losses, they are put in charge of teaching little kids about hockey and hopefully some life lessons along the way. This seems pretty hard to justify under any circumstances.

I guess I'm missing why this is such an enormous deal that a new ID had to be created to vent feelings. Would we all feel better if it was a kid from, say Willmar, trying to improve in the offseason, already driving more than an hour each way to get to practice, but they don't have a 14U team, so a guy asks a tourney director, 'hey, we've got a kid that practices with us, she's OK, but certainly no superstar (I've seen them play a few times, there are no superstars on that team), would it be OK if she played with her new buddies?' Would any circumstances such as this make you able to sleep at night? Would saying, "the 00 black team is awesome and deserves a trophy" make anyone feel better???

Fact of the matter is does it really do the girls any good to play down? I can tell you this, If we play the Chill at the 12U level again this summer I will be bringing in a few 98's and 99's for the game since it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to them and atleast I am letting them know now before we play them instead of trying to hide the fact that I am going to use illegal/older players. Would this be acceptable on the boy's side lets say the Brick tournament? Then why should it be acceptable on the girl's side?

InigoMontoya wrote:I guess I'm missing why this is such an enormous deal that a new ID had to be created to vent feelings. Would we all feel better if it was a kid from, say Willmar, trying to improve in the offseason, already driving more than an hour each way to get to practice, but they don't have a 14U team, so a guy asks a tourney director, 'hey, we've got a kid that practices with us, she's OK, but certainly no superstar (I've seen them play a few times, there are no superstars on that team), would it be OK if she played with her new buddies?' Would any circumstances such as this make you able to sleep at night? Would saying, "the 00 black team is awesome and deserves a trophy" make anyone feel better???

This topic does have merit so I will respond. Rules are mandated to allow for fair boundaries and fair competition for all age levels. What are most of us trying to teach our children? Fair play and play by the rules. Simple. I personally don't know anyone that would think that there is any justification to allow an older kid to play down.

From what I understand, their u10 team has played in three tournaments this spring, winning one and placing second in the other two. This was with at least one 01 kid, who was the most skilled player on the ice in each tournament. Word did spread amongst coaches in one of these tournaments that the jr chill did have at least one ineligible skater on their team. It must feel great for the teams who have beaten this program this spring and are playing by the rules. I'd like to know how the chill coaching staff feels when they win or lose.

This subject does need to be addressed and I would like to hear the chills take on this as well.

On another subject, I have an 2000 son who is looking for a top level 2002 aaa team to play on next season.

Have fun, compete hard and play by the rules.

To be fair, according to IM it would only be ok for your 2000 to play on a 2002 team if

1. the rink was close to home
2. he had friends on the team.

their U10 team has much more than one '01 on it by the way

I don't see where I said it was OK.

For someone who has no kids at this level, and no dog in this hunt, this is a pretty entertaining thread.

Here is an excerpt from the Independent Tournament Rulebook - it is posted on the tournament web-site:

Girls Age Levels For 2013 Independent Classic

8U Level - 2004 Or Younger
10U Level - 2003 & 2002
12U Level - 2001 & 2000
14U Level - 1999 & 1998
16U Level - 1997 & 1996
19U Level - 1995, 1994 & 1993

"16. ILLEGAL PLAYERS: Players not on the 1st game score sheet roster will be removed from the tourney if there is a protest. If found during a game, the said team will play shorthanded with a 5 minute penalty, team plays shorthanded for the full 5 minutes even if the opponent scores. Another player must serve the penalty. If discovered between games this penalty will apply to the team’s next game at the start of that games 1st period. If there is an ineligible player discovered in the incorrect age bracket that team will lose all games in which they played by a score of 1-0 and the players are removed from the tournament. DON’T CHEAT YOU WILL REGREAT IT!"

Not sure who mentioned it - do you think the tournament director, with this statement in their rulebook said "sure, no problem that you have 99's playing at the U12 level (all those girls played A level hockey in winter and will be U14s next season) and that you have 01's playing at the U10 level".

There is no way a tournament director would allow that to happen - I don't care if the girl isn't a superstar. Ironically the Jr. Chill have 2 teams at the U12 and U10 level - you don't see them entering their 2nd team in any tournaments. Why do you think that is? I will give you a hint - it has to do with winning.

These guys are the Barry Bonds of AAA hockey or is it Bernie Madoff? They are laughing all the way to the bank!

So here's the real problem; there are good girls on these teams, good people who have no idea they're taking part in this cheating. I'm sure they tries out for a hockey team, were selected, show to practice and games etc and so it goes. The coaches and leadership of this program are not just cheating they are putting these girls in a horrible position. I know a few of them and I think it's sad, the girls are totally clueless about it - thank goodness for that I guess, but shame on the coaches and leadership of that organization. You aren't just sacrificing your own integrity, you're putting all of your players in a horrible position as well. Let's be honest, the girls aren't cheating YOU are. I have been going back and forth with one of their parents who I am assuming is a hockey mom. She asked them straight out about all of this and they denied doing anything wrong and of course followed it up by trying to discredit me. She actually believes I'm making up the rules. Ask yourself this; with allegations like this out there why haven't they responded? There is no defense. They are cheating to win which adds credibility to their program which brings more dollars to the door. I'll say to all of the Chill parents what I said to her - if playing 01's at the U10 level and 99's at the U12 level were legal why aren't other programs doing it? Is it because we don't like winning, we don't know any '01's and 99's, or is it because we play by the rules? - I'll appeal to your common sense. If a hockey coach was swearing and acting like an idiot in front of his young players many of us would say "how can he be allowed to coach youth, what kind of example is that?" here you have a program built foundation up on cheating - they cheat in EVERY game they play to win, what kind of example is that? Chill leadership - I know you're reading this, let's hear a response

HuskiesHockey - just a thought, send the Chill parent you know the rules from the Independent tournament. They are still on-line. And on the home page it clearly states that 99's are not allowed in U12 and 01's are not allowed in U10. Then ask the "hockey mom" to check with other parents what the birth year is of the kids on the team. No doubt she will find some older girls. Then see what the Chill organizers have to say. Of course they will deny it - Alex Rodriquez still denies taking steroids - Clinton never inhaled...the list goes on and on. But the facts are the facts and cheaters are cheaters.

I actually remember them being in a tournament, must be 2-3 years ago now, when they just were getting started. They actually had a girl on their roster named Suzy Chill. We thought maybe her dad started up the Chill and named them after the family name. Boy, were we naive. That was so they could bring in non-rostered players. Suzy is no where to be found anymore. But as we all know, the lying and cheating had to start somewhere.

We're being pretty hard on the Chill here. It'd be a little embarassing if the whistleblowers here have some skeletons in their own closets. Are we sure this is being/hasn't been done elsewhere? Are we sure there weren't any 2000 born players on any U10 teams last year?

Please say your not going to justify this by saying other programs are doing the same thing. Cheating is cheating! If other programs are doing this, shame on them as well.

I have a daughter that played 10A hockey this past winter and is an 02', she is able to play AAA hockey at the 10U level. The question for me is, do I want her playing against players that are for the most part going to be playing 10U again next winter? No way! I would like to see her play against tougher competition so she can get better.

It's pretty simple, play up, not down! If your daughter is going to be playing 12U hockey next winter and your only playing in 10U tournaments, I would ask the guy you have running things why you can't play any 12u tournaments. See what they say. I know our programs plays up and we compete rather well.

InigoMontoya wrote:We're being pretty hard on the Chill here. It'd be a little embarassing if the whistleblowers here have some skeletons in their own closets. Are we sure this is being/hasn't been done elsewhere? Are we sure there weren't any 2000 born players on any U10 teams last year?

Really??? Did you just really say that????? I GUARANTEE that no team my child has ever played on has cheated or has skeletons in the closet, because if that is the case they would not be playing on the team PERIOD!

My daughters u10 team has played the Jr. Chill team this year and I had no idea about the 01's. I guess if we meet up again this year I will demand to see birth certificates. But then again who is to stop them from submitting phony birth certificates.

IM, while I totally disagree with your take, I respect the fact that you’re willing to debate this topic as the Jr Cheaters are apparently not about to. I have been around boys AAA hockey for several years but only got involved with girls AAA a couple of years ago. I remember when I first got into it my wife asked me if anyone ever uses ineligible (over age) players. I told her “no way! No one would ever try something like that! If they ever got caught their reputation would be ruined, their program’s credibility would be ruined, it would never be worth it, everyone knows it and that’s why nobody would ever try it. Birth certificates are just a formality, mostly for the thrown together teams to keep everybody honest”. I was very wrong. There are only two reasons why other programs aren’t cheating; integrity and/or fear of getting caught. The Chill apparently don’t have any of either. I do not have any skeletons but the Chill do. I would quit being involved with youth sports and pull my kids out entirely before I was ever involved with cheating. I would never allow my kid to play for someone who cheated and never be involved with a program that had a history of cheating. Why are you defending them? Is there an acceptable level of cheating to you? It seems to me that their philosophy is to just cheat enough to win thereby not drawing too much attention to themselves while still accomplishing the goal – winning. Unfortunately, the sad fact is that winning brings credibility to a program’s development. When a program wins everyone assumes that they have the best development. This is why the cheating is so necessary for them. If they only played legal players they would be a low end AAA program at best and many of their better players would leave for other options. Everyone who has coached knows that bringing in 1-4 “next level” players completely changes the complexion of your team. I know a guy from the south end of town who is doing it the right way with a bunch of low to mid ability players in his community. He takes these players and sprinkles in 3-5 top end kids (correct age) and they go win. The lower end kids work their butts off to keep up, the team wins, everyone feels good about it, and the lower kids improve at a high rate. It’s very effective and I love how he’s doing it. The Chill follow the same model they just take the easy way out – they cheat with older players. I know there are plenty of orange haters out there but at least I know when I play them they aren’t bringing illegal players to the game. IM, who else do you think is cheating? The Blades? Not likely. Most of the U10 teams I know of outside of the Blades and the ‘02 machine are made up primarily of younger players (03’s). If you know of someone else cheating let’s hear it. The fact is that outside of the Chill you only hear a sporadic rumor here or there about a “big girl”, the Chill program is known to have multiple overaged players on multiple teams; not for a game, not for a tournament, but rostered that way for the entire summer. You can’t write this off as an innocent oversight. By the way if the only defense to this is that you’re sure someone else must being doing it, I don’t think you’re in a good place.
Sorry for the long winded response, I’m almost done. The answer to this (other than the Chill changing) is twofold; first, the format needs to change to birth year only for girls to take away any confusion that may exist. People will say the numbers don’t support it but, let’s be honest a U10 team this summer is really an 2002 team with high level 2003’s playing (unless you’re the Chill), a U12 team is a 2000 team with better 01’s, etc. If you go to a birth year format these “first year” players will have more opportunities. Second and most important, the tournaments NEED to be held accountable for their product. Make rules clear, check birth certificates at check in, hold teams accountable, don’t make deals, etc. They are the gatekeepers here and we as a hockey community need to hold them accountable.
Chill parents and leadership, I know you’re reading this. You really don’t have any comment? If there’s nothing to hide I would like to hear from you. SOME of you are eligible to play the level you’re playing, does what’s going on bother you or is the winning worth it? Can’t wait to see the new bunch of banners go up! They should say “U12 Jr Chill 1st Place at the U10 level for the Independent Classic” just to be accurate right?