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I have not been able to find the enrollment rules regarding Class A and AA. Does anyone know what enrollment requires schools to move up to Class AA?

Traxler wrote:I have not been able to find the enrollment rules regarding Class A and AA. Does anyone know what enrollment requires schools to move up to Class AA?

This covers all sports:

http://mshsl.org/mshsl/classBreakdown13.asp

Lee

Thanks a lot!

Traxler wrote:I have not been able to find the enrollment rules regarding Class A and AA. Does anyone know what enrollment requires schools to move up to Class AA?

There is not a set enrollment for each class. Every two years when they reset the sections, they are redone and the numbers come from the size of the schools picked.
For example, in hockey it is the top 64 schools in AA (plus opt ups) then the rest in A. So, the 1247-2979 range means the 64th biggest school has an enrollment of 1247 and the biggest is 2979. This will change every two years.

That info would be a lot more helpful imo, but I have never seen it anywhere, although it is probably listed somewhere.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

Traxler wrote:I have not been able to find the enrollment rules regarding Class A and AA. Does anyone know what enrollment requires schools to move up to Class AA?

There is not a set enrollment for each class. Every two years when they reset the sections, they are redone and the numbers come from the size of the schools picked.
For example, in hockey it is the top 64 schools in AA (plus opt ups) then the rest in A. So, the 1247-2979 range means the 64th biggest school has an enrollment of 1247 and the biggest is 2979. This will change every two years.

That info would be a lot more helpful imo, but I have never seen it anywhere, although it is probably listed somewhere.

Thanks for that explanation of how it works. Your explanation of the 64 biggest schools helps to make sense of the numbers.

Is there a list anywhere of the teams that have opted to play up? I can come up with some of them, but probably not all (Roseau, Grand Rapids, St. Thomas Academy, Benilde St. Margaret's, Rogers, and probably many more).

Add Hill-Murray, Cloquet, Bemidji, Holy Angels, Holy Family, and Rochester Century.

Basically, any private school other than CDH; any northern school other than East, Moorhead, and Brainerd; plus Century and Rogers.

karl(east) wrote:Add Hill-Murray, Cloquet, Bemidji, Holy Angels, Holy Family, and Rochester Century.

Basically, any private school other than CDH; any northern school other than East, Moorhead, and Brainerd; plus Century and Rogers.

Maybe I'm not understanding the question, but there are plenty of A private schools that have NOT opted to move up to AA...

Question is which of the AA schools could be A by enrollment.

MNHockeyFan wrote:

karl(east) wrote:Add Hill-Murray, Cloquet, Bemidji, Holy Angels, Holy Family, and Rochester Century.

Basically, any private school other than CDH; any northern school other than East, Moorhead, and Brainerd; plus Century and Rogers.

Maybe I'm not understanding the question, but there are plenty of A private schools that have NOT opted to move up to AA...

There is one private school in MN that is one of the top 64 largest schools in MN; Cretin-Derham Hall. All other private schools in AA have opted up.

Classification is not purely by enrolled students. The number of free and reduced lunches can lower the student numbers for purposes of sports classification. And it is not a one for one reduction. I think it is 40%.

I am pretty sure it is based only on enrollment.

Bulldog3489 wrote:Classification is not purely by enrolled students. The number of free and reduced lunches can lower the student numbers for purposes of sports classification. And it is not a one for one reduction. I think it is 40%.

You are correct. A student who qualifies for free/reduced lunch counts as 3/5 a student toward the school's enrollment count.

It sure would be nice if all this info were in one easy to find place on the mshsl site

Rogers is not opting up, they are AA based on enrollment.

The free and reduced lunch impact does lower some schools below the "top 64" cut-off in many sports. Minneapolis and St Paul public schools typically move down a level in most sports. These schools have the ability to opt down for each sport (not an all or none decision) and the decision can be separate for boys and girls sports.

Not sure how "enrollment for coop schools is calculated.

HShockeywatcher wrote:There is one private school in MN that is one of the top 64 largest schools in MN; Cretin-Derham Hall. All other private schools in AA have opted up.

Got it - all other private schools that are in AA.

Marty wrote:The free and reduced lunch impact does lower some schools below the "top 64" cut-off in many sports. Minneapolis and St Paul public schools typically move down a level in most sports. These schools have the ability to opt down for each sport (not an all or none decision) and the decision can be separate for boys and girls sports.

Not sure how "enrollment for coop schools is calculated.

Coops are forced to count all students.
Schools like Becker/ Big Lake, MAML, River Lakes have to play AA because
They piece together teams from two-five small towns.
These teams are competitive against A teams, and get clubbed by AA teams.
Breck and Totino pull kids from 5-10 large suburbs and play A.

Makes perfect sense.

blindref wrote:

Marty wrote:The free and reduced lunch impact does lower some schools below the "top 64" cut-off in many sports. Minneapolis and St Paul public schools typically move down a level in most sports. These schools have the ability to opt down for each sport (not an all or none decision) and the decision can be separate for boys and girls sports.

Not sure how "enrollment for coop schools is calculated.

Coops are forced to count all students.
Schools like Becker/ Big Lake, MAML, River Lakes have to play AA because
They piece together teams from two-five small towns.
These teams are competitive against A teams, and get clubbed by AA teams.
Breck and Totino pull kids from 5-10 large suburbs and play A.

Makes perfect sense.

While I disagree with the analogy (and don't want to argue it here), you are right that it makes no sense.
Coops are not the result of powerhouse small schools coming together and saying, "hey guys, if we coop we could win state," they are the result of either a) schools who don't have the numbers to field teams individually coming together to form teams or b) a school with players but not enough to field a team sending their players to an established team.

I've been saying for years that coops where none of the individual schools have enough kids to form a team should be placed in Class A regardless of size of their schools.
Brainerd, Elk River, Osseo and Tech are really the only reason for adding that caveat. In my opinion, all other coops should be placed in Class A. There's no reason a program like Minneapolis should be in AA.

Marty wrote:The free and reduced lunch impact does lower some schools below the "top 64" cut-off in many sports. Minneapolis and St Paul public schools typically move down a level in most sports. These schools have the ability to opt down for each sport (not an all or none decision) and the decision can be separate for boys and girls sports.

Not sure how "enrollment for coop schools is calculated.

Kind of splitting hairs I guess, but they wouldn't be opting down. Their official enrollment number for MSHSL calculations is the number after the free/reduced multiplier. If they want to opt up, they are welcome to. Mpls schools have been in AA and AAA football in recent years because that is where they are placed, for example.

Splitting indeed. Ok then, they can accept the lower level placement based on the recalculated number or play a level higher.

In a sport like hockey, counting 60% of the free and reduced students for enrollment doesn't make any sense. Formula should be changed to meet reality.

Bulldog3489 wrote:In a sport like hockey, counting 60% of the free and reduced students for enrollment doesn't make any sense. Formula should be changed to meet reality.

The only programs really affected by the f/r rate are the 3 St Paul programs and I don't think you can make a good argument the other way as their f/r rates are over 50%. I believe Minneapolis petitioned down this cycle and are not in A due to their f/r rate. After that you're really just splitting hairs on the top A schools and bottom AA schools as no one can make a good argument to put Rochester Century (#65) in AA or Rogers (#64) in A based on f/r rates or lack there of. Cretin(#63) is the next AA school and they'd opt up while the next two up are co-ops. With only 2 classes the f/r rates impact is extremely limited.

Bulldog3489 wrote:In a sport like hockey, counting 60% of the free and reduced students for enrollment doesn't make any sense. Formula should be changed to meet reality.

Do you think the percent should be less?

I'd be curious to know participation rates of those on f/r lunch and what the actual difference is by sport.

i believe the free & reduced impacts Duluth Denfeld? Correct or no? I always thought they were AA enrollment wise but with that F&R formula they can stay in A?

Maybe i'm wrong...

HShockeywatcher wrote:

Bulldog3489 wrote:Classification is not purely by enrolled students. The number of free and reduced lunches can lower the student numbers for purposes of sports classification. And it is not a one for one reduction. I think it is 40%.

You are correct. A student who qualifies for free/reduced lunch counts as 3/5 a student toward the school's enrollment count.

It sure would be nice if all this info were in one easy to find place on the mshsl site

3/5?

Given the unfortunate historical and constitutional links to counting something (or someone) as three-fifths of a whole, I would have gone with a different percentage.

And given just how much it costs a family to put a child out there on the ice, I would have pegged it far closer to a one for one reduction.

almostashappy wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:

Bulldog3489 wrote:Classification is not purely by enrolled students. The number of free and reduced lunches can lower the student numbers for purposes of sports classification. And it is not a one for one reduction. I think it is 40%.

You are correct. A student who qualifies for free/reduced lunch counts as 3/5 a student toward the school's enrollment count.

It sure would be nice if all this info were in one easy to find place on the mshsl site

3/5?

Given the unfortunate historical and constitutional links to counting something (or someone) as three-fifths of a whole, I would have gone with a different percentage.

And given just how much it costs a family to put a child out there on the ice, I would have pegged it far closer to a one for one reduction.

Yeah, something like 2/3 or 4/7 is close enough, can't argue there.

The number is used for the school's enrollment for classification in all boy's and girl's sports, not just hockey. It is not sport specific.
It would be interesting to come up with some stats over a couple years of involvement in sports and see how likely f/r students are to play sports and what sports are played.

Rocketwrister wrote:i believe the free & reduced impacts Duluth Denfeld? Correct or no? I always thought they were AA enrollment wise but with that F&R formula they can stay in A?

Maybe i'm wrong...

Don't think so. The MSHSL lists their F/R-adjusted enrollment at 863, while the actual figure seems to be in the 1100s--still low enough to be Class A, even if there weren't any F/R kids.

I don't know how familiar you are with Duluth, but something like half of the school-age population lives east of 21st Avenue East. There just aren't a lot of settled families with kids much of the central and western parts of the city. There are a lot of things going on there (post-industrial economy, an aging population, open enrollment into Proctor and Hermantown, etc.), but even though Central mostly folded into Denfeld, it is still much smaller than East.