HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:40 pm**

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... r_id=32770

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:48 am**

Don't bother with their comments section.

I made a comment, of how so often, these actions are more parent driven than player driven.

Guess they didn't like it.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:38 am**

Maybe it's just the Hub site not working.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:42 am**

puckbreath wrote:Don't bother with their comments section.

I made a comment, of how so often, these actions are more parent driven than player driven.

Guess they didn't like it.

Hmmm, I think when you are a youth player like bantam and younger I can buy into the overzealous parent argument, but by the time a kid is a senior I think they are pretty much mature enough to have their own opinions on things and their own voice on what direction they want to go. Let's face it, regardless of who the parent is, the kid is the one who put in the countless hours of work to become that good of a player, and for ALOT of these kids they are already playing a higher level of hockey, and have a higher level of knowledge than their parents do about the sport. If a kid is good enough to be a full time player in the USHL when he is a senior and that is what he wants to do I think it's probably alot more player driven than parent driven at that age. These aren't little kids anymore when they are seniors in high school they are borderline adults with brains and ideas and everything... Maybe I just recall my own experience as a youth but by the time I was a senior my parents couldn't "make me" do anything liek that if I didn't really want to do it myself, when I was younger yes, but not when I was a senior in high school. Do the parents have some input, yes, but I doubt many if any of the kids are "pushed out the door" to the USHL unless they themselves really really want to go

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:25 am**

How about leaving a top ten team with 10 games left in the season...

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:43 am**

alcloseshaver wrote:How about leaving a top ten team with 10 games left in the season...

Probably even more a kid decision..my kids weren't all that great at seeing the "big picture" at that age and would not have liked playing 2nd line if they thought they were better than the kid in front of them. Things like balance and strategy
don't always resonate with 18 year olds..we'll see..might have been the best thing for all parties..

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:12 am**

JSR wrote:
puckbreath wrote:Don't bother with their comments section.

I made a comment, of how so often, these actions are more parent driven than player driven.

Guess they didn't like it.
Hmmm, I think when you are a youth player like bantam and younger I can buy into the overzealous parent argument, but by the time a kid is a senior I think they are pretty much mature enough to have their own opinions on things and their own voice on what direction they want to go. Let's face it, regardless of who the parent is, the kid is the one who put in the countless hours of work to become that good of a player, and for ALOT of these kids they are already playing a higher level of hockey, and have a higher level of knowledge than their parents do about the sport. If a kid is good enough to be a full time player in the USHL when he is a senior and that is what he wants to do I think it's probably alot more player driven than parent driven at that age. These aren't little kids anymore when they are seniors in high school they are borderline adults with brains and ideas and everything... Maybe I just recall my own experience as a youth but by the time I was a senior my parents couldn't "make me" do anything liek that if I didn't really want to do it myself, when I was younger yes, but not when I was a senior in high school. Do the parents have some input, yes, but I doubt many if any of the kids are "pushed out the door" to the USHL unless they themselves really really want to go

Not in my experience. Yours may vary

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:27 am**

- Top players leaving
- MH advocates and leaders kids leaving
- 25 game season compared to 50-60 games against much better competition
- Scouts taking the tournament with a grain of salt
- D1 numbers still high but pulled back from last year.

If it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't apply here. Marketing will not help in the face of the MH leaders opting out for their kids and losing many top players in the state.

Hockey is changing everywhere and while participation and total ice time per player is still king in MN and keeping MN in the limelight for advancing players out of the sheer number of participants, other states are developing more elite players then they used to with different models. MHSH provides good competition and a small number of games in a short season. The highschool elite league benefits some with more games and great competition. Competing Junior A leagues offer great competition and a longer season with well more than double the number of games.

With MN numbers and ice time still a big advantage, what changes should be considered if any?

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:44 am**

NextGoalWins wrote:- Top players leaving
- MH advocates and leaders kids leaving
- 25 game season compared to 50-60 games against much better competition
- Scouts taking the tournament with a grain of salt
- D1 numbers still high but pulled back from last year.

If it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't apply here. Marketing will not help in the face of the MH leaders opting out for their kids and losing many top players in the state.

Hockey is changing everywhere and while participation and total ice time per player is still king in MN and keeping MN in the limelight for advancing players out of the sheer number of participants, other states are developing more elite players then they used to with different models. MHSH provides good competition and a small number of games in a short season. The highschool elite league benefits some with more games and great competition. Competing Junior A leagues offer great competition and a longer season with well more than double the number of games.

With MN numbers and ice time still a big advantage, what changes should be considered if any?

Great post. Very true.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:47 am**

NextGoalWins wrote:- Top players leaving
- MH advocates and leaders kids leaving
- 25 game season compared to 50-60 games against much better competition
- Scouts taking the tournament with a grain of salt
- D1 numbers still high but pulled back from last year.

If it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't apply here. Marketing will not help in the face of the MH leaders opting out for their kids and losing many top players in the state.

Hockey is changing everywhere and while participation and total ice time per player is still king in MN and keeping MN in the limelight for advancing players out of the sheer number of participants, other states are developing more elite players then they used to with different models. MHSH provides good competition and a small number of games in a short season. The highschool elite league benefits some with more games and great competition. Competing Junior A leagues offer great competition and a longer season with well more than double the number of games.

With MN numbers and ice time still a big advantage, what changes should be considered if any?

Seth Ambroz went into the USHL as one of the most talked about 15 year olds and spent many years there.

Kyle Rau went right from high school to the Gophers.

One lit it up as a freshman and one didn't.

One is able to be on the ice for countless hours.. And one is on the bus traveling the country for countless hours.

Jmo

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:49 am**

Not sure what the answer is? When the associate executive director of the MSHSL has his own kid leave early what can they say?

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:18 pm**

alcloseshaver wrote:Not sure what the answer is? When the associate executive director of the MSHSL has his own kid leave early what can they say?

That they're hypocrites ?

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:20 pm**

bemused wrote:
alcloseshaver wrote:How about leaving a top ten team with 10 games left in the season...
Probably even more a kid decision..my kids weren't all that great at seeing the "big picture" at that age and would not have liked playing 2nd line if they thought they were better than the kid in front of them. Things like balance and strategy
don't always resonate with 18 year olds..we'll see..might have been the best thing for all parties..

Or, as more often the case in such a scenario, "Son, you're the greatest hockey player ever born, destined for NHL glory. We, er you, just need to get you out of this lousy program, that has shafted you since day one, and then you wait and see !
We'll, er you'll, show 'em !"

Signed,

Dad

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:34 pm**

puckbreath wrote:
bemused wrote:
alcloseshaver wrote:How about leaving a top ten team with 10 games left in the season...
Probably even more a kid decision..my kids weren't all that great at seeing the "big picture" at that age and would not have liked playing 2nd line if they thought they were better than the kid in front of them. Things like balance and strategy
don't always resonate with 18 year olds..we'll see..might have been the best thing for all parties..
Or, as more often the case in such a scenario, "Son, you're the greatest hockey player ever born, destined for NHL glory. We, er you, just need to get you out of this lousy program, that has shafted you since day one, and then you wait and see !
We'll, er you'll, show 'em !"And hang your friends out to dry to stick it to the coach.

Signed,

Dad

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:35 pm**

MSHSL and the "Elite" cronies are completely out to lunch.

Soft leagues + 25 game schedule = continued player exodus.

'State of Hockey' is very soft and the rest of the country knows it.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:44 pm**

- college numbers have naturally gone down a little as participation has gone up in other parts of the country.

- seems obvious from the article, that numbers out east went way down as their high school structure went away.

- wasn't long ago that we hardly ever had a kid in the top 20 in the USHL scoring stats. Summer AAA, Elite Leagues etc.. Has changed that.

- 98', and more so 99' birth years, were the start of the high numbers of kids that started summer AAA at the youngest eligible ages. It's my opinion that these age groups will be the ones that start making the stat leader boards at the highest level. College numbers from these groups will also go way up.

- do need more options than just the elite league to keep the base broader.

- all the development options are right outside of our doors.... A friend of mine that had to move his hockey family to Nebraska for work, laughs when he hears about kids leaving Minnesota for hockey "opportunities"...

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:30 pm**

It aint all about hockey........its leaving your family and FRIENDS during your last year (or more) in highschool. I think most would agree that your Senior Year is the BEST year in school......... Plenty of examples of kids being successful after playing Juniors......... Will give only one example of a skater who stayed all 4 years....... Justin Kloos....... Finished school at home, played Juniors and is having a huge impact wtih the Gophers. Have spoken with skaters who have given up their highschool years for Juniors....... Great choice as far as hockey competition......... not so great when you see them among their friends and they see what they are missing on a daily basis.......... JMO

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:57 pm**

nahc wrote:It aint all about hockey........its leaving your family and FRIENDS during your last year (or more) in highschool. I think most would agree that your Senior Year is the BEST year in school......... Plenty of examples of kids being successful after playing Juniors......... Will give only one example of a skater who stayed all 4 years....... Justin Kloos....... Finished school at home, played Juniors and is having a huge impact wtih the Gophers. Have spoken with skaters who have given up their highschool years for Juniors....... Great choice as far as hockey competition......... not so great when you see them among their friends and they see what they are missing on a daily basis.......... JMO

I agree that giving up your Senior year with your friends is a huge and tough decision, but neither you or I know what's best for every kid. I don't think anyone is giving these kids enough credit. Cmon, these are 17 and 18 year old kids, not 3rd graders. I'm sure these kids think that part of it through. They know what it means to have their friends around them and how much they enjoy or don't enjoy High School. Some probably stay for this reason and some probably don't care, so they leave.

I think people are forgetting that they still attend High School when they leave early to go play in the USHL. They make more friends. Whose to say they don't have a better High School experience at the new school? Nobody knows that. There is no one size fits all for every kid. How can anyone be so arrogant as to lump every situation into one and think they know what's best for every kid?

For the vast majority of these kids that have to have at least one year of Juniors before college, I would think starting college on time would be a big factor. I would assume that if they finish High School and then go, one or two years with no school at all would affect academic performance once they do get to college. Are we forgetting that the purpose of going to college is to get a Degree and ultimately a career that you will have the rest of your life? (For the 99.9% that don't make the NHL).

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:00 pm**

puckbreath wrote:Don't bother with their comments section.

I made a comment, of how so often, these actions are more parent driven than player driven.

Guess they didn't like it.

If you think a 17-18 year old kid thinks their parents know more than they do about what's best for them, then it's probably been a looooong time since you were that age.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:17 pm**

Froggy Richards wrote:
puckbreath wrote:Don't bother with their comments section.

I made a comment, of how so often, these actions are more parent driven than player driven.

Guess they didn't like it.
If you think a 17-18 year old kid thinks their parents know more than they do about what's best for them, then it's probably been a looooong time since you were that age.

Lots of uninformed comments about how the process works, when it's the parents driving the train.

It doesn't take place *only* when the kid is 17-18.

These are kids (in my examples) that have been told/reinforced, since they were old enough to skate, you're the best.

You're going to be playing in the NHL.

Any bumps along the way are the result of bad coaches, bad programs holding you back/shafting you, etc.

It's never our fault, it's theirs, who/whatever is "theirs".

You are entitled to the "best", because you are the best.

etc, etc, etc.

Ad nauseam for twelve or so years, and the kid believes it too and/or thinks his parent(s) knows what they're talking about. In *this* matter.

It's not really rocket science; tell a hs age kid to clean his room, they're going to tell you to take a hike.

Tell them the above.....over and over and over, for years......they're going to agree with it more often than not.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:25 pm**

I'm a fan of MSHSL hockey, but I'm a college fan first. I don't like to see players leave HS needlessly, but it's easy for me to understand the reasoning for many of them.

First, the D1 committed kids are typically told that they'll need a year of juniors before college. I can understand why many of them want to start college as true freshmen. There are exceptions, of course, for extraordinary talents and emergency call-ups: Bjugstad, Holl, Rau, Leddy, Hanowski, Besse, Faust, Budish, and several others I know I'm missing. But even Mr. Hockey winners like Kloos, Gorowsky, Dey, and Serich were asked to play a year of juniors. So, it's fairly safe to say that a stop in juniors has become a bit of a prerequisite.

Second, there are some kids who just aren't playing solid enough schedules to ever get noticed, with or without mind boggling statistics. They often end up learning the WRONG game. They end up as "finishers" only and flop when they get to higher levels. I can understand why a Heid, or Von Ruden, or Fredberg might want to seek greener pastures.

However, there are at least 20 players who left this season where I don't understand their motivation at first glance. There may be valid reasons derived from thorough, logical analysis, but I don't know what they are. It's these kids that the MSHSL is trying to lure back through emotional pleas. I don't know that it'll work, but I wish them the best of luck.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:35 pm**

Kids leave for a variety of reasons but don't discount eligibility issues. From rules violations to grades to attendance those things play a part as well. It used to be you screwed up you paid a penalty and that might be running cross country or summer school now it means going to play AAA or in the NAHL. It's nice to go a junior team with a "structured" education policy that doesn't includes actually going to school to get that GPA up.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:41 pm**

When kids with the last name Nanne, Guentzel, Lucia and a host of other "hockey connected" names all leave early to play juniors...doesn't that tell you anything about the "senior year" debate. The reality is kids are going to leave every year...get used to it. All we can do is hope those that do compete hard and REP Minnesota the best they can...we all know that the 30+ kids that head to greener pastures will at best produce 8-10 draft picks and 1 NHL'er that becomes a household name. Either way..it's not worth sweating over.

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:51 pm**

puckbreath wrote:
Froggy Richards wrote:
puckbreath wrote:Don't bother with their comments section.

I made a comment, of how so often, these actions are more parent driven than player driven.

Guess they didn't like it.
If you think a 17-18 year old kid thinks their parents know more than they do about what's best for them, then it's probably been a looooong time since you were that age.
Lots of uninformed comments about how the process works, when it's the parents driving the train.

It doesn't take place *only* when the kid is 17-18.

These are kids (in my examples) that have been told/reinforced, since they were old enough to skate, you're the best.

You're going to be playing in the NHL.

Any bumps along the way are the result of bad coaches, bad programs holding you back/shafting you, etc.

It's never our fault, it's theirs, who/whatever is "theirs".

You are entitled to the "best", because you are the best.

etc, etc, etc.

Ad nauseam for twelve or so years, and the kid believes it too and/or thinks his parent(s) knows what they're talking about. In *this* matter.

It's not really rocket science; tell a hs age kid to clean his room, they're going to tell you to take a hike.

Tell them the above.....over and over and over, for years......they're going to agree with it more often than not.

Unless you know every kid/family that has ever left early, this is nothing but spinning yarn. Other than the kid from Elk River, I haven't heard any speculation to where a kid who left early felt they were getting "screwed" over by bad coaching or bad programs holding them back. Most kids who leave early come from some of the best programs in the state. Is it not possible that the kid thinks he can get better by going to Juniors?

Posted: **Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:56 pm**

green4 wrote:http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... r_id=32770

Why no mention of the WHL? It's all about playing juniors to get ready for college. On this topic, and after last year's Pauly/Portland blow-up, it was relevant. Especially since story quoted the coach more than once.

Another thing not mentioned, but relevant....there are more than a few "summer birthday" kids who are already 18 when senior season started, and who could have graduated previous June. Some have even been drafted, and that NHL team is going to have a big say on where the kid plays.

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Interesting read on players leaving

Interesting read on players leaving

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Re: Interesting read on players leaving