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I Realize the MSHSL has set the season limit to 25 regular season games.
But what I am wondering is why only 25? I would assume that is the number of games they think a high schooler can handle? Im really not sure the thought process.
When I was in high school I played Junior gold hockey. We had 36 regular season games. My friend on the other team who went to the state championship ended up playing about 45 games that year including playoffs.
I checked the Edina, SLP and Minnetonka JGA schedules for this year and they are playing 36,37 and 39 regular season games, and there season is shorter by 2-3 weeks. They are typically playing 3 games a week.

Obviously they're is some differences between junior gold and high school but I don't see why they couldn't add perhaps ten games to the High school schedule.

I can see the challenges for teams up north like grand rapids and roseau where travel could become too expensive, just an idea I have thought that perhaps could work would be doing a round robin tournament at there own rink similar to the Edina Holliday classic. Im sure you could get some metro teams interested in doing something like in duluth with the east invitational and then the following week the denfield invitational or something like that. If worst comes to worst they could always do another loop in the conference I would imagine.

I think tournaments are the best solution. In junior gold only 24 games counted for playoff seeding purposes but we would fill up on 3 or 4 tournaments to get more games in, and I don't see why not try that out in high school.

This is just an idea so try not to bash it too hard. I would like to hear what people think especially from up north where it could be challenging. Thanks

My guess is that the issue is less related to "what they can handle physically" and more what should be taking a student athlete away from school. In addition to the emphasis on having 3 distinct seasons.

When you compare the competitions of football/hockey/basketball to those of skiing/track/XC, they are very different in terms of time. Ski races are earlier (due to sun often) and students can get on their way home in a similar time to a practice day. For these other similar sports a game night is often an all night affair starting when school gets out (or earlier) until sometimes getting home between 11pm and midnight depending on where your away game is.

While you could run games much earlier, the other dynamic is $. Sure, you could have a varsity game at 3pm, but there would be no one in the stands.

From a hockey standpoint, I've heard that many would prefer students have the time in practice in addition to games, but I doubt that's as big of a factor as other non-sport specific things. Just my two cents.

HShockeywatcher wrote:My guess is that the issue is less related to "what they can handle physically" and more what should be taking a student athlete away from school. In addition to the emphasis on having 3 distinct seasons.

When you compare the competitions of football/hockey/basketball to those of skiing/track/XC, they are very different in terms of time. Ski races are earlier (due to sun often) and students can get on their way home in a similar time to a practice day. For these other similar sports a game night is often an all night affair starting when school gets out (or earlier) until sometimes getting home between 11pm and midnight depending on where your away game is.

While you could run games much earlier, the other dynamic is $. Sure, you could have a varsity game at 3pm, but there would be no one in the stands.

From a hockey standpoint, I've heard that many would prefer students have the time in practice in addition to games, but I doubt that's as big of a factor as other non-sport specific things. Just my two cents.

If the comparison is between Junior Gold and the MSHSL-sanctioned season, the "three sports seasons" goal doesn't really apply, since Junior Gold teams are formed after high school programs make their cuts, right? They do get an extra week with a state tournament that is a week after the Tourney, but I don't think a lot of Junior Gold games/practices are taking place that weekend before.

The biggest difference might be that Junior Gold teams can practice and play games on Sundays. That said, the typical high school team's week includes 4 practices and 2 games. That's a 2:1 ratio that is supposed to be ideal, right?

The issue is the outstate teams and money. The metro teams could schedule a ton of games, but the outstate teams struggle with getting 25 games, and some teams are so remote, it's at least an hour for an away, at a minimum. Now, when game sget over at 9, get on the bus, and get home, it's after midnight sometimes. Also, it's very costly for these small schools in outstate to do more travel and games. Don't agree with it, but that is what the MSHSL's issues are with more games.

My solution is to start the hockey season 2 weeks earlier and go 3-4 weeks longer, where you could add 10 more games. But that doesn't help the outstate teams with travel.

I don't think you can start any earlier as football goes until Thanksgiving, you could go a week or two longer as spring sports are all ready pushed off until late March in most of the state.

That said games are costly; transportation, officials, ice rental, workers, etc. and face it attendance isn't what it used to be to offset those expenses. I'm not sure there is a huge appetite among schools to play more games. You have to try and keep sports affordable and not every school has Edina's demographics where a few hundred bucks to play is pocket change.

Why do high school sports have to be confined to 3 seasons?
Why not have a year long program in some sports..Golf for instance should start in April and go through the summer into September, when you get two matches because you can't even get on a course until May and school ends the first week of June..it's not exactly a season anyway.

Do Elite League teams practice 4 days a week? If they don't using the old "elite league" as justification to get more "games" doesn't mean it helps "develop" the top end (or connected) kids.

I don't buy the "it's too expensive", "it takes away from school arguments", or "we can't find games due to travel" excuses. As has been pointed out, Junior Gold plays more games and so do Bantams, Pee Wees, and even Squirts. The answer to adding more games has already been given, weekend jamborees and tournaments. Add 3 tournament weekends to the schedule, 4 games on a weekend, there's 12 games right there. You might have to add a week onto the season to accomodate this but that's not too bad.

As for offering players more to keep them from going to juniors, the HP League is good but there is another even bigger option. Many states play high school baseball and they also have a Legion baseball season. How about a VFW hockey league in the spring? The teams could be town/association based U16 and U18 teams that play a spring schedule and compete for a VFW State Championship in the spring.

I know that is going to conflict with spring high school sports but at this point I don't care. I see HS Hockey as in a fight for its life and there are sacrifices that will need to be made. I'd rather it be some other sport destroyed than hockey. This would be done outside the realm of high school sponsored sports as it is Legion based.

Heck, another option would be MN Hockey sponsoring a Midget Major and Midget Minor league and state tournament in the spring. Kids could go back to their associations after the high school season for spring association hockey. That's thinking outside the "penalty" box.

Why add meaningless games where the typical player handles the puck for a total of 30 seconds or less, and reduce the number of practices where players can develop skills?

That's why I proposed creating a whole new league and season. More practice time as well as more games.

As to why more games, obviuously the kids want them as they are choosing that model by heading to juniors instead of staying in HS.

SCBlueLiner wrote:I don't buy the "it's too expensive", "it takes away from school arguments", or "we can't find games due to travel" excuses. As has been pointed out, Junior Gold plays more games and so do Bantams, Pee Wees, and even Squirts. The answer to adding more games has already been given, weekend jamborees and tournaments. Add 3 tournament weekends to the schedule, 4 games on a weekend, there's 12 games right there. You might have to add a week onto the season to accomodate this but that's not too bad.

As for offering players more to keep them from going to juniors, the HP League is good but there is another even bigger option. Many states play high school baseball and they also have a Legion baseball season. How about a VFW hockey league in the spring? The teams could be town/association based U16 and U18 teams that play a spring schedule and compete for a VFW State Championship in the spring.

I know that is going to conflict with spring high school sports but at this point I don't care. I see HS Hockey as in a fight for its life and there are sacrifices that will need to be made. I'd rather it be some other sport destroyed than hockey. This would be done outside the realm of high school sponsored sports as it is Legion based.

Heck, another option would be MN Hockey sponsoring a Midget Major and Midget Minor league and state tournament in the spring. Kids could go back to their associations after the high school season for spring association hockey. That's thinking outside the "penalty" box.

You are right about hockey being in a fight for it's life.

A)20 min periods
B) two games on Saturdays
C) 14 week season

These things can be done now and will not disrupt other sports or cost much money or disrupt anything.
Play games Tue/ Thurs/Sat. This is an immediate 56 game schedule and you add almost 2 games in extra minutes. Really? drive from Duluth to Maple Grove and you can't play regulation periods?

This gives you 18 months to plan a legitimate spring/fall season as outlined above for kids who want to do that. The kids leaving don't play other sports seriously anyhow or they wouldn't leave. It can be outside MSHSL, either AAU or USA hockey sanctioned and legitimate costs paid by players. Make it u18 and u16 and have real tryouts with real coaches for 8 teams that play together in both seasons with PRACTICE. This is why kids leave, not for more games. To get better and to compete for D1/junior spots with kids who have been playing year round since they were 5. We are winning with quantity but losing our "quality'!

The "Elite" league is for profit bs run by a bunch of cronies putting a bunch of kids together with no practice. NO development Total Scam
Scrap it!!

I think the real reason for a short season is the mission of the MSHSL, as pointed out above. This ties into yesterday's story about players leaving.

For the vast majority of high school players, school is far more importnat than hockey. Competitve hockey will end after senior year, but their education (and need to make a living) will continue. For this player, it does not matter very much if their hockey development is not quite maximized. There is also value to them in being able to participate in fall and spring sports.

For the small percentage that go on to play D1 or higher (about 50 per year), educaiton is important, but so is maximizing hockey development. For these players, the high school season is not enough hockey. Even if the Elite League is added, it will be less hockey development than a season in juniors. If hockey development is as important as educaiton, players should conisder leaving senior year. If that means leaving your friends, remember that great accomplishments require great sacrifice.

The MSHSL has a responsibility to provide opportunity for all high school kids who want to play. They can not create an environment that serves only those players for whom hockey is everything and still serve the MSHSL mission. So it will always be around 17 weeks and 25 regualr season games. The best we can hope for is to create a environemtn around the HS season that enables these players to develop before and after the season.

The elite HS players will have to choose between HS hockey and juniors. Some will choose juniiors. Some will choose HS. And the choice will be harder because the USHL is not very interested in Minnesota HS graduates coming for one year before college (only 9 MN 2012-13 seniors in USHL this year). So a player who stays his senior year might be giving up more than he bargaisns for.

bemused wrote:

SCBlueLiner wrote:I don't buy the "it's too expensive", "it takes away from school arguments", or "we can't find games due to travel" excuses. As has been pointed out, Junior Gold plays more games and so do Bantams, Pee Wees, and even Squirts. The answer to adding more games has already been given, weekend jamborees and tournaments. Add 3 tournament weekends to the schedule, 4 games on a weekend, there's 12 games right there. You might have to add a week onto the season to accomodate this but that's not too bad.

As for offering players more to keep them from going to juniors, the HP League is good but there is another even bigger option. Many states play high school baseball and they also have a Legion baseball season. How about a VFW hockey league in the spring? The teams could be town/association based U16 and U18 teams that play a spring schedule and compete for a VFW State Championship in the spring.

I know that is going to conflict with spring high school sports but at this point I don't care. I see HS Hockey as in a fight for its life and there are sacrifices that will need to be made. I'd rather it be some other sport destroyed than hockey. This would be done outside the realm of high school sponsored sports as it is Legion based.

Heck, another option would be MN Hockey sponsoring a Midget Major and Midget Minor league and state tournament in the spring. Kids could go back to their associations after the high school season for spring association hockey. That's thinking outside the "penalty" box.

You are right about hockey being in a fight for it's life.

A)20 min periods
B) two games on Saturdays
C) 14 week season

These things can be done now and will not disrupt other sports or cost much money or disrupt anything.
Play games Tue/ Thurs/Sat. This is an immediate 42 game schedule and you add almost 2 games in extra minutes. Really? drive from Duluth to Maple Grove and you can't play regulation periods?

This gives you 18 months to plan a legitimate spring/fall season as outlined above for kids who want to do that. The kids leaving don't play other sports seriously anyhow or they wouldn't leave. It can be outside MSHSL, either AAU or USA hockey sanctioned and legitimate costs paid by players. Make it u18 and u16 and have real tryouts with real coaches for 8 teams that play together in both seasons with PRACTICE. This is why kids leave, not for more games. To get better and to compete for D1/junior spots with kids who have been playing year round since they were 5. We are winning with quantity but losing our "quality'!

The "Elite" league is for profit bs run by a bunch of cronies putting a bunch of kids together with no practice. NO development Total Scam
Scrap it!!

Like your ideas. My vision for the spring league is for a lot more than 8 teams. I'm talking about a team where every association currently exists and not just for "elite" players. I'm looking to develop more depth of players in the state through this, something that brings the average player up another level too. Maybe that's too grandiose but I'd rather start by thinking big and then scale back. You'd also get more support for this as it involves many players rather than just being seen as catering to the "elite". You'll also pull at the heartstrings of people when "town pride" gets involved. No big deal for a player from NW Minnesota to play on a spring team based out of (say) Bemidji when he is from Moorehead. Pull on the sweater for the Moorehead VFW team in the State Tournament and the whole town starts getting involved.

Maybe that's too big, but I'd like to see at least a 24 team league.

I understand more games is a reply to not playing High School hockey, but are more games going to make better players? I don't have first hand experience on this but I have read many times that European players don't have an excessive number of games they concentrate more on player touches of the puck in practices. Another thing that a lot of people don't take into account is the number of times a player, particulary a first year player in juniors ,can be a healthy scratch in junior leagues.

bsmguy wrote:I think the real reason for a short season is the mission of the MSHSL, as pointed out above. This ties into yesterday's story about players leaving.

For the vast majority of high school players, school is far more importnat than hockey. Competitve hockey will end after senior year, but their education (and need to make a living) will continue. For this player, it does not matter very much if their hockey development is not quite maximized. There is also value to them in being able to participate in fall and spring sports.

For the small percentage that go on to play D1 or higher (about 50 per year), educaiton is important, but so is maximizing hockey development. For these players, the high school season is not enough hockey. Even if the Elite League is added, it will be less hockey development than a season in juniors. If hockey development is as important as educaiton, players should conisder leaving senior year. If that means leaving your friends, remember that great accomplishments require great sacrifice.

The MSHSL has a responsibility to provide opportunity for all high school kids who want to play. They can not create an environment that serves only those players for whom hockey is everything and still serve the MSHSL mission. So it will always be around 17 weeks and 25 regualr season games. The best we can hope for is to create a environemtn around the HS season that enables these players to develop before and after the season.

The elite HS players will have to choose between HS hockey and juniors. Some will choose juniiors. Some will choose HS. And the choice will be harder because the USHL is not very interested in Minnesota HS graduates coming for one year before college (only 9 MN 2012-13 seniors in USHL this year). So a player who stays his senior year might be giving up more than he bargaisns for.

There are 16 team in the ushl. So of the roughly 320 spots available
2.8% are filled by kids who stayed with their buddies. A USHL owner told me there are 3 reasons they don't target Minnesota kids,right or wrong these are his answers: 1) too much BS about not leaving high school
2) Soft. Meaning they are not used to the physical play outside of MN hockey.
3) They break down. Injuries are much more prevalent in their first year. (i know, I know, sounds like BS)

It doesn't matter what we think these are the perceptions. Straight from the source.

SCBlueLiner wrote:I don't buy the "it's too expensive", "it takes away from school arguments", or "we can't find games due to travel" excuses. As has been pointed out, Junior Gold plays more games and so do Bantams, Pee Wees, and even Squirts. The answer to adding more games has already been given, weekend jamborees and tournaments. Add 3 tournament weekends to the schedule, 4 games on a weekend, there's 12 games right there. You might have to add a week onto the season to accomodate this but that's not too bad.

Unless those tournament weekends are going to be held close to home, you're going to have to address the cost issue that others have raised. There are only a handful of teams Up North that are willing to spend the money now to hire the coach bus and pay the hotel bills for a Metro-area game or Christmas tournament. Can't imagine much interest in adding to the travel budgets for high school teams (except for the well-heeled/well-funded programs). You've already got school AD's howling about the changes in MSHSL football, saying that they can't afford to travel out beyond relatively compact conference boundaries.

SCBlueLiner wrote: As for offering players more to keep them from going to juniors, the HP League is good but there is another even bigger option. Many states play high school baseball and they also have a Legion baseball season. How about a VFW hockey league in the spring? The teams could be town/association based U16 and U18 teams that play a spring schedule and compete for a VFW State Championship in the spring.

I know that is going to conflict with spring high school sports but at this point I don't care. I see HS Hockey as in a fight for its life and there are sacrifices that will need to be made. I'd rather it be some other sport destroyed than hockey. This would be done outside the realm of high school sponsored sports as it is Legion based.

I like this idea, for the most part. Since it's a spring league run by VFW and/or community-based hockey associations, you don't have to worry about MSHSL three-season restrictions (beyond the fact that they couldn't use high school coaches during the black-out periods).

I would see the VFW league as more of a player development league than a way of encouraging the top end players to hang around senior year. Spring of senior year many would be running off to play a few USHL games, even if they do hang around to play high school hockey. As for the underclassmen, a spring league would potentially conflict with the HP programs/festivals/profit-centers. Not that I see that as a bad thing...HP's focus is exclusively on the high end players, and a spring community-based league would draw kids farther down the bench that might not get an invite or advance very far anyway.

The main concern I'd have over a spring league outside of MSHSL sanction is whether those kids who still are multi-sport athletes would be pressured (or feel pressure) to drop their spring high-school team sport in order to play spring hockey. High school hockey already pretty-much demands six months out of their year (between pre-season captain's practices, winter season, and the six weeks of summer training during the allowed coach contact period. For those kids who love hockey but also love to play other sports, that's enough time in my book.

We are in agreement on alot of things. I want to first point out that I was a multi-sport athlete and I want my son to be a multi-sport athlete. I am aware enough to understand the world is changing. We may want our hockey players to play other sports but the other sports; basketball, wrestling, baseball, volleyball, soccer, etc are practically year round sports. Kids are feeling the pressure by those sports to choose and drop hockey.

I believe in a well rounded athlete and up until high school I think kids should be playing multiple sports. It's getting to a point where some choices are needing to be made. I'd rather see hockey survive.

"Spring of senior year many would be running off to play a few USHL games, even if they do hang around to play high school hockey. As for the underclassmen, a spring league would potentially conflict with the HP programs/festivals/profit-centers. Not that I see that as a bad thing...HP's focus is exclusively on the high end players, and a spring community-based league would draw kids farther down the bench that might not get an invite or advance very far anyway."

--Yes, spring of senior year the top end players would be heading to the USHL. The league would offer a last hoorah, a last chance at State for the other seniors who remain and would serve as a devlopmental league for the juniors, soph, freshman, and possibly 8th graders who will be frosh the next year.

Slightly off topic but another take on player development.
http://www.letsplayhockey.com/online-ed ... -rats.html

SCBlueLiner wrote:We are in agreement on alot of things. I want to first point out that I was a multi-sport athlete and I want my son to be a multi-sport athlete. I am aware enough to understand the world is changing. We may want our hockey players to play other sports but the other sports; basketball, wrestling, baseball, volleyball, soccer, etc are practically year round sports. Kids are feeling the pressure by those sports to choose and drop hockey.

I believe in a well rounded athlete and up until high school I think kids should be playing multiple sports. It's getting to a point where some choices are needing to be made. I'd rather see hockey survive.

You are right that many athletes in those sports play their sport year round, but in none of those cases (that I know of) are they participating in MSHSL sanctioned activities. The elite league, junior gold, bantams, etc are not MSHSL activities.

SCBlueLiner wrote:We are in agreement on alot of things. I want to first point out that I was a multi-sport athlete and I want my son to be a multi-sport athlete. I am aware enough to understand the world is changing. We may want our hockey players to play other sports but the other sports; basketball, wrestling, baseball, volleyball, soccer, etc are practically year round sports. Kids are feeling the pressure by those sports to choose and drop hockey.

I believe in a well rounded athlete and up until high school I think kids should be playing multiple sports. It's getting to a point where some choices are needing to be made. I'd rather see hockey survive.

As the parent of a multi-sport athlete, I can report that there was no pressure from either coaching staffs to drop the "other" sport. It was quite the opposite, actually.

In my opinion, anyone who is worrying about the "survival" of hockey (specifically MN high school hockey) should be focusing on three far more pressing structural issues:

1) cost to participate;
2) cost to participate; and,
3) cost to participate.


HSHW - It's fair to state that the summer training programs that most every coach conducts during the MSHSL-allowed "contact period" from mid-June to end of July is a sanctioned activity.

almostashappy wrote:

SCBlueLiner wrote:We are in agreement on alot of things. I want to first point out that I was a multi-sport athlete and I want my son to be a multi-sport athlete. I am aware enough to understand the world is changing. We may want our hockey players to play other sports but the other sports; basketball, wrestling, baseball, volleyball, soccer, etc are practically year round sports. Kids are feeling the pressure by those sports to choose and drop hockey.

I believe in a well rounded athlete and up until high school I think kids should be playing multiple sports. It's getting to a point where some choices are needing to be made. I'd rather see hockey survive.

As the parent of a multi-sport athlete, I can report that there was no pressure from either coaching staffs to drop the "other" sport. It was quite the opposite, actually.

In my opinion, anyone who is worrying about the "survival" of hockey (specifically MN high school hockey) should be focusing on three far more pressing structural issues:

1) cost to participate;
2) cost to participate; and,
3) cost to participate.


HSHW - It's fair to state that the summer training programs that most every coach conducts during the MSHSL-allowed "contact period" from mid-June to end of July is a sanctioned activity.

And in the case of those who run them from April to August and call them hockey schools they are mandatory (if you want to play HS) and a huge money maker for the coach which is another "cost to participate"

bemused wrote: And in the case of those who run them from April to August and call them hockey schools they are mandatory (if you want to play HS) and a huge money maker for the coach which is another "cost to participate"

Your mileage may vary, but the 6-week long 3days/week summer training program run by the local high school coach isn't a money maker...registrations costs less than HP tryout/participation fees, and less than the cost of being "Xposed" at that Elite/SSM event.

almostashappy wrote:

SCBlueLiner wrote:We are in agreement on alot of things. I want to first point out that I was a multi-sport athlete and I want my son to be a multi-sport athlete. I am aware enough to understand the world is changing. We may want our hockey players to play other sports but the other sports; basketball, wrestling, baseball, volleyball, soccer, etc are practically year round sports. Kids are feeling the pressure by those sports to choose and drop hockey.

I believe in a well rounded athlete and up until high school I think kids should be playing multiple sports. It's getting to a point where some choices are needing to be made. I'd rather see hockey survive.

As the parent of a multi-sport athlete, I can report that there was no pressure from either coaching staffs to drop the "other" sport. It was quite the opposite, actually.

In my opinion, anyone who is worrying about the "survival" of hockey (specifically MN high school hockey) should be focusing on three far more pressing structural issues:

1) cost to participate;
2) cost to participate; and,
3) cost to participate.


HSHW - It's fair to state that the summer training programs that most every coach conducts during the MSHSL-allowed "contact period" from mid-June to end of July is a sanctioned activity.

Eggzackly.

almostashappy wrote:

bemused wrote: And in the case of those who run them from April to August and call them hockey schools they are mandatory (if you want to play HS) and a huge money maker for the coach which is another "cost to participate"

Your mileage may vary, but the 6-week long 3days/week summer training program run by the local high school coach isn't a money maker...registrations costs less than HP tryout/participation fees, and less than the cost of being "Xposed" at that Elite/SSM event.

it varies in Duluth..

almostashappy wrote:HSHW - It's fair to state that the summer training programs that most every coach conducts during the MSHSL-allowed "contact period" from mid-June to end of July is a sanctioned activity.

That is fair. And from what I understand all students need to be welcome to those. While they may be for hockey, football or cross country, it cannot be just for your hockey players and cannot be mandatory.

Additionally, they don't conflict with other sports. Which is a big thing.
Conflicting with other sports and taking student-athletes away from their studies are big things.