HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:11 pm**

We all know how many of the players on last year’s Tonka boys state championship team played youth hockey in Tonka (not a lot, especially among the high end players). Apparently this is also now the norm with the girls teams as well. I’m told two of the four seniors on the Tonka girls varsity team played youth hockey in Tonka and—!!!!!—just ONE OF THE NINE juniors on the roster played youth hockey in Tonka? WTH is going on in Tonka?! And, does anyone feel good about where this is headed?

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:11 am**

Welcome to 2023 where the existence of any personal integrity is absent from nearly every facet of life. Probably not much one can say other than...buckle up and good luck!

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:47 pm**

It’s absurd. I wish other coaches and the Minnesota Hockey Coaches Association would speak out against what Goldsworthy and Cassano are doing in Tonka. They should be publicly shunned.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:28 am**

Ranking in order of blame

1. Parents....Parents are the ones pushing it...They can't stop...They have to blame "that last coach" so they get together at their hockey school or AAA teams and make these plans. Since High School hockey today is really only played with 6 forwards, 3 D's and a goalie, it' almost always the parents of the top kids that are out doing all the recruiting.

2. Coaches- Yes they need to accept responsibility. They "claim" there's nothing they can do but we all know better. Coaches need to win to feed their ego. It's just a matter of time before coaches start trading blows in the tunnel over a "recruiting dispute"

3. AD's - Let's be honest..Most AD's are 90% focused on football. But they are the ones that sign off on this and they, as a group, could demand change

4. MSHSL- These grey hairs spend just as much energy figuring out which town should host the 2027 state band competition as they do on bigger issues like this.

5. Minnesota Hockey- This organization is now more focused on money and their high performance leagues than doing what's right for the sport. They are helping create all this craziness. They appear to have stuck their head in the hand versus being proactive against all this recruiting.

6. the kid....Today's kids just need to say no to the parents. I know it's hard...I know dad has taught them it's never their fault but at some point they can just say no dad, I'm happy here, things will be fine.

My prediction - We are just a couple years away from someone starting up a separate league of 15-18 year old. The league would bail on the High School league and join a league that would play against Shattuck. I could see 5-6 teams with its' own state tournament. It's not an if, it's a when. It's coming..trust me... High School hockey will never be the same, because parents want more more more.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:20 am**

yesiplayedhockey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:28 am Ranking in order of blame

1. Parents....Parents are the ones pushing it...They can't stop...They have to blame "that last coach" so they get together at their hockey school or AAA teams and make these plans. Since High School hockey today is really only played with 6 forwards, 3 D's and a goalie, it' almost always the parents of the top kids that are out doing all the recruiting.

2. Coaches- Yes they need to accept responsibility. They "claim" there's nothing they can do but we all know better. Coaches need to win to feed their ego. It's just a matter of time before coaches start trading blows in the tunnel over a "recruiting dispute"

3. AD's - Let's be honest..Most AD's are 90% focused on football. But they are the ones that sign off on this and they, as a group, could demand change

4. MSHSL- These grey hairs spend just as much energy figuring out which town should host the 2027 state band competition as they do on bigger issues like this.

5. Minnesota Hockey- This organization is now more focused on money and their high performance leagues than doing what's right for the sport. They are helping create all this craziness. They appear to have stuck their head in the hand versus being proactive against all this recruiting.

6. the kid....Today's kids just need to say no to the parents. I know it's hard...I know dad has taught them it's never their fault but at some point they can just say no dad, I'm happy here, things will be fine.

My prediction - We are just a couple years away from someone starting up a separate league of 15-18 year old. The league would bail on the High School league and join a league that would play against Shattuck. I could see 5-6 teams with its' own state tournament. It's not an if, it's a when. It's coming..trust me... High School hockey will never be the same, because parents want more more more.

"My prediction - We are just a couple years away from someone starting up a separate league of 15-18 year old. The league would bail on the High School league and join a league that would play against Shattuck. I could see 5-6 teams with its' own state tournament. It's not an if, it's a when"

I heard this in 1974 and again in 1987 and 1999, the question is not when but who and how?

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:00 am**

"5. Minnesota Hockey- This organization is now more focused on money and their high performance leagues than doing what's right for the sport. They are helping create all this craziness. They appear to have stuck their head in the hand versus being proactive against all this recruiting."

It's hard to argue that money is not important to MNH but they (we) are trying to stop (slow down) the shift to open transfers of hockey players.
And MH does not have much influence on high school hockey. The biggest thing MNH can do is disallow transfers of 9ther graders to different associations. That is on the agenda.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:28 pm**

Interesting. Can you go into more details on the 9th grade youth association transfer thing? How would that help the high school situation? In 9th grade kids are already enrolled in a high school but, as we’ve now seen repeatedly, kids are transferring high schools now multiple times and still finding a way to stay eligible by parents renting them an apartment in new school district, living with another family in district, etc.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:02 pm**

SpreadOut! wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:28 pm Interesting. Can you go into more details on the 9th grade youth association transfer thing? How would that help the high school situation? In 9th grade kids are already enrolled in a high school but, as we’ve now seen repeatedly, kids are transferring high schools now multiple times and still finding a way to stay eligible by parents renting them an apartment in new school district, living with another family in district, etc.

Change school waiver policy so to stay in bantams at where you were in 8th grade or just deny school waiver.
It may not be a fix but would stop jumping ship in 9th grade...

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:15 pm**

SpreadOut! wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:11 pm We all know how many of the players on last year’s Tonka boys state championship team played youth hockey in Tonka (not a lot, especially among the high end players). Apparently this is also now the norm with the girls teams as well. I’m told two of the four seniors on the Tonka girls varsity team played youth hockey in Tonka and—!!!!!—just ONE OF THE NINE juniors on the roster played youth hockey in Tonka? WTH is going on in Tonka?! And, does anyone feel good about where this is headed?

A lot of the Juniors are '07 Machine Girls that decided to go there together.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:59 pm**

Did they open enroll (does Tonka allow open enrollment), rent an apartment together, or what? And how do the girls who’ve played in Tonka youth association for top teams whole time in youth feel when a group of all stars decide to show up and take literally almost all the roster spots? Just one of nine juniors on Tonka’s roster having played youth hockey in Tonka is obscene. Schools can shut down open enrollment. If Tonka had any integrity at all, they would. I live in Maple Grove and Maple Grove High School does not currently allow open enrollment. Osseo and Park Center (other high schools in district) do, but not Maple Grove. And Tonka’s numbers at the youth level are just as high as Maple Grove’s, so don’t say “well Maple Grove has way more talent to pick from than Tonka” as that’s not the case.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 10:09 am**

Imagine that, one of the state's top high schools that also has a very strong athletic program is a desirable open enrollment destination.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:28 pm**

O-townClown wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 10:09 am Imagine that, one of the state's top high schools that also has a very strong athletic program is a desirable open enrollment destination.

Does it make it right? Is it a good development for high school hockey in Minnesota for a public high school to become the destination for AAA all star teams to transfer to, immediately taking away opportunities for good players who grew up playing for the youth program and supporting the high school program? Is that what you want high school hockey in Minnesota to become?

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:29 pm**

SpreadOut! wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:28 pm
O-townClown wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 10:09 am Imagine that, one of the state's top high schools that also has a very strong athletic program is a desirable open enrollment destination.
Does it make it right? Is it a good development for high school hockey in Minnesota for a public high school to become the destination for AAA all star teams to transfer to, immediately taking away opportunities for good players who grew up playing for the youth program and supporting the high school program? Is that what you want high school hockey in Minnesota to become?

And if your kid was one of the players who gets dumped when the all stars move in, you’d be totally cool with that, right?

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:53 pm**

Good stuff Elliott..And I will speak on behalf of 99% of the people on this forum when we say we truly appreciate all your work you do for hockey in this state

to address your question about Who....My guess is it could come from a couple different sources

1. It could be an extension of the high School elite league
2. It could come from a group of former NHL dads who simply don't want to send their 15 year old kid to live in the strange house in Detroit
3. My guess is it will most likely come up from all the hockey schools popping up. The schools will see dollar signs and want more control over their clients (oops I mean students)

Bottom line is the Tonka's of the world are just beating the privates at their own game. The problem I see? The same teams competing for the state AA championship will be the same 8-10 teams every year...Those who can recruit will win..those who can't will slide down...

As far as transfers...Unless you can control the rich beating the system, any new rules you put in place the rich can lawyer up and find away around it. I do think if you imposed a rule that clearly states "anyone who transfers, that one year they are ineligible for any post season play....That would solve a lot of problems..Not all but many...Zero tolerance..Again, the year you move = no post season play.... No exceptions like job transfers, bullying, hardship...

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:42 pm**

yesiplayedhockey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:53 pm Good stuff Elliott..And I will speak on behalf of 99% of the people on this forum when we say we truly appreciate all your work you do for hockey in this state

to address your question about Who....My guess is it could come from a couple different sources

1. It could be an extension of the high School elite league
2. It could come from a group of former NHL dads who simply don't want to send their 15 year old kid to live in the strange house in Detroit
3. My guess is it will most likely come up from all the hockey schools popping up. The schools will see dollar signs and want more control over their clients (oops I mean students)

Bottom line is the Tonka's of the world are just beating the privates at their own game. The problem I see? The same teams competing for the state AA championship will be the same 8-10 teams every year...Those who can recruit will win..those who can't will slide down...

As far as transfers...Unless you can control the rich beating the system, any new rules you put in place the rich can lawyer up and find away around it. I do think if you imposed a rule that clearly states "anyone who transfers, that one year they are ineligible for any post season play....That would solve a lot of problems..Not all but many...Zero tolerance..Again, the year you move = no post season play.... No exceptions like job transfers, bullying, hardship...

Minnesota hockey will never allow it they have a monopoly on the state. They will never register these teams and if MN hockey doesn't register them any team that plays them will lose their standing with USA hockey.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:08 pm**

yesiplayedhockey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:53 pm Good stuff Elliott..And I will speak on behalf of 99% of the people on this forum when we say we truly appreciate all your work you do for hockey in this state

to address your question about Who....My guess is it could come from a couple different sources

1. It could be an extension of the high School elite league
2. It could come from a group of former NHL dads who simply don't want to send their 15 year old kid to live in the strange house in Detroit
3. My guess is it will most likely come up from all the hockey schools popping up. The schools will see dollar signs and want more control over their clients (oops I mean students)

Bottom line is the Tonka's of the world are just beating the privates at their own game. The problem I see? The same teams competing for the state AA championship will be the same 8-10 teams every year...Those who can recruit will win..those who can't will slide down...

As far as transfers...Unless you can control the rich beating the system, any new rules you put in place the rich can lawyer up and find away around it. I do think if you imposed a rule that clearly states "anyone who transfers, that one year they are ineligible for any post season play....That would solve a lot of problems..Not all but many...Zero tolerance..Again, the year you move = no post season play.... No exceptions like job transfers, bullying, hardship...

I agree that cracking down hard on transfers is likely the best solution. I’d go a step further. If you transfer for any reason, period, you can only play JV the year you transfer. Too many are gaming the loopholes now. The number of transfers for true hardships, bullying, job relocations, etc, are near zero. Virtually nobody would get screwed if the MSHSL implemented a zero excuses transfer rule. It’s play JV that year or don’t transfer. Full stop.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:59 pm**

th51

Couldn't these new teams simply be another Shattuck? And if Minnesota Hockey/USA hockey tried to prevent it, they would face a potential lawsuit?

A the 2030 state tournament could have Shattuck playing against 6 -7 hockey schools similar to Shattuck ( geographically located in the cities and all around Minnesota)..All these teams would not be sanctioned by the MSHSL and would play a 65-80 game schedule.

I'm not saying I'm for it...heck I'm all for High School hockey starting in September and going -April but that ain't happening.. I'm all for a 32 team single class state tournament...but that ain't happening...So I see "someone" trying to build another mousetrap. Not saying it's a better mousetrap...

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:23 pm**

yesiplayedhockey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:59 pm th51

Couldn't these new teams simply be another Shattuck? And if Minnesota Hockey/USA hockey tried to prevent it, they would face a potential lawsuit?

A the 2030 state tournament could have Shattuck playing against 6 -7 hockey schools similar to Shattuck ( geographically located in the cities and all around Minnesota)..All these teams would not be sanctioned by the MSHSL and would play a 65-80 game schedule.

I'm not saying I'm for it...heck I'm all for High School hockey starting in September and going -April but that ain't happening.. I'm all for a 32 team single class state tournament...but that ain't happening...So I see "someone" trying to build another mousetrap. Not saying it's a better mousetrap...

I completely agree with your bottom point there... MSHSL needs to realize the HS hockey in Minnesota is different than other sports and, as such, should be treated differently. 40 game regular season start it 6 or so weeks earlier. Sorry to fall sports that lose their players life isn't fair.

As to your first point, I don't know this forsure but to my understanding Minnesota hockey would not have to register them. Northstar Christian academy is ineligible for Tier 1 because they do not get registered through MN Hockey. Whatever deal MN hockey made with Shattuck in the 90's they seem completely unwilling to expand to other schools

If someone with enough money came along I would assume they would have a realistic chance of winning a lawsuit but I don't know that it would be a slam dunk.

Again my knowledge on this situation is decent but not great but this is how it is to my understanding.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:46 pm**

Spread Out

"I agree that cracking down hard on transfers is likely the best solution. I’d go a step further. If you transfer for any reason, period, you can only play JV the year you transfer. Too many are gaming the loopholes now. The number of transfers for true hardships, bullying, job relocations, etc, are near zero. Virtually nobody would get screwed if the MSHSL implemented a zero excuses transfer rule. It’s play JV that year or don’t transfer. Full stop."

I could not agree more with this proposal. If you transfer, you are ineligible for varsity competition for one year, no exceptions. The only people who would have a major issue would be those transferring for athletic reasons, which, according to the MSHSL, is not allowed.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:38 pm**

slacsap wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:46 pm Spread Out

"I agree that cracking down hard on transfers is likely the best solution. I’d go a step further. If you transfer for any reason, period, you can only play JV the year you transfer. Too many are gaming the loopholes now. The number of transfers for true hardships, bullying, job relocations, etc, are near zero. Virtually nobody would get screwed if the MSHSL implemented a zero excuses transfer rule. It’s play JV that year or don’t transfer. Full stop."

I could not agree more with this proposal. If you transfer, you are ineligible for varsity competition for one year, no exceptions. The only people who would have a major issue would be those transferring for athletic reasons, which, according to the MSHSL, is not allowed.

Bingo!

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:46 pm**

yesiplayedhockey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:59 pm th51

Couldn't these new teams simply be another Shattuck? And if Minnesota Hockey/USA hockey tried to prevent it, they would face a potential lawsuit?

A the 2030 state tournament could have Shattuck playing against 6 -7 hockey schools similar to Shattuck ( geographically located in the cities and all around Minnesota)..All these teams would not be sanctioned by the MSHSL and would play a 65-80 game schedule.

I'm not saying I'm for it...heck I'm all for High School hockey starting in September and going -April but that ain't happening.. I'm all for a 32 team single class state tournament...but that ain't happening...So I see "someone" trying to build another mousetrap. Not saying it's a better mousetrap...

Shattuck is governed by MN Hockey and USAH.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:49 pm**

elliott70 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:46 pm
yesiplayedhockey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:59 pm th51

Couldn't these new teams simply be another Shattuck? And if Minnesota Hockey/USA hockey tried to prevent it, they would face a potential lawsuit?

A the 2030 state tournament could have Shattuck playing against 6 -7 hockey schools similar to Shattuck ( geographically located in the cities and all around Minnesota)..All these teams would not be sanctioned by the MSHSL and would play a 65-80 game schedule.

I'm not saying I'm for it...heck I'm all for High School hockey starting in September and going -April but that ain't happening.. I'm all for a 32 team single class state tournament...but that ain't happening...So I see "someone" trying to build another mousetrap. Not saying it's a better mousetrap...
Shattuck is governed by MN Hockey and USAH.

North Star Christian Academy is governed by MNH and USAH.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:24 am**

elliott70 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:49 pm
elliott70 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:46 pm
yesiplayedhockey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:59 pm th51

Couldn't these new teams simply be another Shattuck? And if Minnesota Hockey/USA hockey tried to prevent it, they would face a potential lawsuit?

A the 2030 state tournament could have Shattuck playing against 6 -7 hockey schools similar to Shattuck ( geographically located in the cities and all around Minnesota)..All these teams would not be sanctioned by the MSHSL and would play a 65-80 game schedule.

I'm not saying I'm for it...heck I'm all for High School hockey starting in September and going -April but that ain't happening.. I'm all for a 32 team single class state tournament...but that ain't happening...So I see "someone" trying to build another mousetrap. Not saying it's a better mousetrap...
Shattuck is governed by MN Hockey and USAH.
North Star Christian Academy is governed by MNH and USAH.

What keeps them from being eligible for Tier 1 nationals?

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:45 pm**

MN Hockey (as one of the 12 USA Hockey Districts) won't grant them the proper status...they do allow SSM the proper status.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:41 pm**

SpreadOut! wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:29 pm
SpreadOut! wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:28 pm
O-townClown wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 10:09 am Imagine that, one of the state's top high schools that also has a very strong athletic program is a desirable open enrollment destination.
Does it make it right? Is it a good development for high school hockey in Minnesota for a public high school to become the destination for AAA all star teams to transfer to, immediately taking away opportunities for good players who grew up playing for the youth program and supporting the high school program? Is that what you want high school hockey in Minnesota to become?
And if your kid was one of the players who gets dumped when the all stars move in, you’d be totally cool with that, right?

About 5,000 of the 11,000 students in attending Minnetonka public schools are there via Open Enrollment. Majority of families in the school district do not have school age children.

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