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Isn't this the Minnesota Youth Hockey Forum???

the Fire is a AAA organization that draws from all over Minnesota and Wisconsin, put them in a catagory that they belong. In their league, they don't stack up. Look at their records when they play other teams like themselves.

They don't have the problems we have here. We have to take 15 players (most teams in the metro do), they all have to live in the same area. You can't find 15 "A" players in one area. You have your upper 5, middle 5, and lower 5. Hopefully you get a good goalie. They steal the best players out of the small assoc., put them all together and have a good team. But they cannot be put in the same catagory as the assoc. teams in MN.

Apple does not = Orange.

Put Shattuck's prep Team against any MN High School team.

Slappy,
Could not agree more with regards to the AAA Fire. If your scheduling games, running tournaments turn them away. Bus the 'elite' down to Texas to play on the weekend.

Slappy,
You could not be more right. Those kids who live in small associations should be forced to stay there and skate at the B level. Who cares if they really enjoy the game and love to be at the rink. They should not be given the chance to skate at a higher level. If they don't like it they should pack up their entire family and up root the rest of their kids and move. Let's face it Minnesota Hockey owns them and they should not have any rights.

They are so much worse than the ones that use fake addresses, one month apartment rentals and such.

Obviously you have a kid on the fire.
Did you read what I wrote??
I just said you can't compare the Fire with assoc teams.
I didn't say they were awful for doing it.

Just keep playing in Chicago, St Louis, etc.. against teams with a similar situation and makeup.

And oh by the way, leaving Wayzata, Elk River, Anoka, etc.. is not leaving a smaller association that doesn't have an A team.

54fighting wrote:Slappy,
You could not be more right. Those kids who live in small associations should be forced to stay there and skate at the B level. Who cares if they really enjoy the game and love to be at the rink. They should not be given the chance to skate at a higher level. If they don't like it they should pack up their entire family and up root the rest of their kids and move. Let's face it Minnesota Hockey owns them and they should not have any rights.

They are so much worse than the ones that use fake addresses, one month apartment rentals and such.

Fighter ~ I hope you take a minute, and read to yourself, and think after each line, what you think, a family should endure, because, and now this is the part that scares me, he chose to play on another team? I have nothing to do with or am not familiar with the Wisconsin Fire, but I am assuming that the family in question has chosen to play with this organization? I really don't think you can fault a parent who trys to take a chance to see if it can better his/her child! That's like saying anyone who plays at a Private High School in Minnesota, that left their association's team should be forced to leave the state and play JV in Hudson. Do you know how many of my neighbors would have to move? Give me a break, if the "association" wants to use him, he can use the association.

1. You don't own the kids, therefore they are not being stolen from you.
2. If your team loses one kid and you no longer can compete at the "A" level then you should be a "B" team. If your star player leaves, work with what's left. Why did he want to leave in the first place?
3. If you don't want to play an AAA team then don't, but quit worrying about what others do. I thought I read that the fire beat an A team 3 -1. That was probably a good game for that A team.
4. I don't think these teams will ruin youth hockey in MN.
5. My kid is not on the Fire and never will be on the team.
6. What about private High Schools. They don't have youth associations to feed their system.

Did you or did you not write " They STEAL the best players out of small associations". I think if you reread your post and then read mine you will see what I was responding to. Theydon't STEAL anyone what they do is offer kids that are stuck in a situation that they don't like an alternitive which is more than I can say for Minnesota Hockey. If you go to them with a request they will not even give you the time of day.
JLS- To suggest that teams avoid the Fire or blackball them is just stupid. A lot of the better teams in Minnesota use the Fire to get better. They see it as a chance to get a good game against soem one they will not see in a District or State tournament.
As far as the forum goes, there are plenty of Minnesota kids playing on Fire teams so why not disscuss them. Maybe then people would realize that they are not the evil empire the Minnesota Hockey makes them out to be, but just a group of kids playing hockey.


wannagotottherink- my post was an attempt at sarcasm.

There is no problem with the Fire. But Tournament commitees should think twice about including them in any tournament. If the various Minnesota tournament committes include them, why wouldn't..say Edina and Wayzata swap out their most talented and form a team. The same should be for private Minnesota high schools. Put them in the private class and let them have their own state tournament. Football has six classes, what would be the difference if we had three for hockey. I bet it make a lot of people think twice about going to a private school

Why should one team, The Fire be allowed to compete in Minnesota when Minnesota teams are community based.

Bottom line, the Fire should play other AAA teams and are welcome in the off season just as any other AAA team.[/u]

By the way, there is nothing wrong with packing up the family and moving to a dominate hockey community. I did. When my kids are done with hockey, I will move again. It's great. Try it.

IM4U2C wrote:By the way, there is nothing wrong with packing up the family and moving to a dominate hockey community. I did. When my kids are done with hockey, I will move again. It's great. Try it.

Nothing is wrong with that. Wisconsin Fire is full of people/families like you. Maybe you should go there and test the water.

After reading some of your previous posts, I am going to guess your lad was on EPs pee wee A team. Which community did you move from? Were you an outstater?

I'M Yankin your chain. I didn't move anywhere, but the Fire should stay in Wisconsin with all the other cheese heads

Breakout, who are you thinking of? Ej Faust maybe?

Maybe we should just tell all the boys from the Fire Hockey Club that they should go back home. They should not play in any MN Tournaments because they have decided to play Tier 1 hockey. Remember that MN Hockey does not want any MN boy to play Tire 1 hockey. Why? Well, because not every boy in MN can play Tier 1 hockey so it is just not fair. I would probably think that since the boys are younger than most of the teams in MN that we should not use the lack of numbers in our assocation argument but rather that the Fire boys just should not be able to compete with most MN teams due to their boys being younger. Why not let them try..........well just because! Why help them get ready for their schedule? There is no reason any MN team should play the Fire! I do think it is OK to play the cheeseheads from Green Bay, or the Kings from Thunder Bay, or Shattuck. In fact is it not a sign of intelligence to discriminate against some of our own boys because they want to play Tier 1 hockey. I guess I am wrong but I thought that both groups were US Hockey registered and it was about playing the best competition our boys can find. [/list][/quote]

Not sure of the kids name. I heard there was a disgruntled Minnetonka parent that flew the coop for perceived greener pastures in EP. Not the first time a parent has done that.

Note to Wisconsin Fire parents: I wish you all great success. I personally don't have the kind of disposable income or time to do what you are doing. Keep in mind, only a handfull of your kids will get D1 deals.

Additionally, I am all for not allowing Wisconsin Fire and others like their organization in area tournaments. Keep association hockey alive and a tradition. Let those who want to do AAA hockey stuff in season participate elsewhere. I hear Chicago is beautiful this time of year.

Breakout, yes, we should all keep the status quo in MN. Those AAA and Tier 1 boys should go to the cities were they play and rent an apartment so they can be closer to their competition. Let's keep the tradition of MN Hockey making claim to all those top draft pics who actually developed in the Tier 1 Shattuck program, the National Development program and/or the USHL. Let's keep that age old tradition of not exposing our MN players to US Hockey traditions. I think you are on to something here!

.[/quote] Keep in mind, only a handfull of your kids will get D1 deals. Additionally, I am all for not allowing Wisconsin Fire and others like their organization in area tournaments. Keep association hockey alive and a tradition. Let those who want to do AAA hockey stuff in season participate elsewhere. I hear Chicago is beautiful this time of year[/quote]

I can't quite tell, thinkb4engaging did you rip me? Or, was that sarcasm?

I am all for development and thinking outside the box. Development through Shattuck and arguably Ann Arbor is elitist and very few Minnesota kids go that direction. Much of that has to do with cost and willingness to follow that path. From what I have read, Herb Brooks wanted to broaden the pyramid. Shattuck and Ann Arbor do not.

The reality is, most of MN kids that excel and go on to higher levels of hockey do so by going through playing at the park, association hockey, community high school hockey, elite 2 league, elite 1 league, USHL and if they are very lucky, D1. Thank God TJ Oshie, Brian Lee, Jay Baribal, Taylor Mattson and many others didn't buy into your logic thinkb4engaging.

Hope you enjoy your drives to Somerset!

Breakout-what logic are you referring to? I am still trying to understand how you can even suggest that the Tier 1 boys should not play against MN teams.
You sound as if you want to "think" for the association teams and tournament directors. Are the Tier 1 teams not good enough or are they too good? I thought it was not about winning but rather your Herb Brooks pyramid of development of including players. Now you want to exlude all Tier 1 players from playing MN hockey teams. That is over 4000 US/Canadian players just at the Pee wee major and minor levels. If we follow your logic then your pyramid base just got smaller.

Breakout- Didn't both Mattson and Barribal go to private schools? I don't know about Lee, weather or not he grew up in Moorhead . I would not be using Oshie to point out a homegrown talent. He moved to Warroad for hockey from out of state, Washington I think.
There are kids who play for their hometown teams all the way through, but they are getting harder and harder to find. Fisher from the Apple Valley is one I think.
The question is, way are you so uptight about the Fire. If these people want to try a different path let them. If you are in charge of a team and don't want to play them don't. But don't get on here and try to tell everyone else what to do and what path is right for their kids. In fact if you look at the real numbers. The number of upper level players that Minnesota Hockey is producing just continues to go down. Maybe if Minnesota Hockey is so worried about losing kids to Tier 1, Private HS, Juniors, etc it should look at providing a program within Minnesota Hockey for them instead of sticking it's head in the sand.

Mattson and Baribal did go to private schools. Mattson is still at AHA. I believe both were a product of association hockey. Lee is a Moorhead lad and played association hockey. Oshie did move from another place. You mentioned Fischer, again a home town product. Eric Johnson played home town hockey in Bloomington until his first year of high school. Jordan Schroeder played home town hockey up until high school. Now he is in Ann Arbor and has committed to the U. I believe Nick Pryor played association hockey up until his Ann Arbor opportunity. Cade Fairchild played association hockey in Duluth. He is currently playing in Ann Arbor and has committed to the U. I could go on.

On top of that, how many NHL draft choices came out of Minnesota last year? I believe all of those kids played association hockey with their local friends. They supplemented their growth with AAA off season hockey.

Let's see, you go the Fire route that probably costs a family 10K per season. Then, because you are passionate people you play AAA off season hockey and spend another 5-10K. That's per kid! How many people can afford your route? How would that broaden the pyramid Herb Brookes talked about?

Additionally, I think there are a limited number of very passionate Wisconsin Fire types that keep getting shut out of area tournaments. It frustrates you and you accuse associations of being affraid of competition, limiting competition, etc. You got the money, go travel and enjoy.

I wish you well in your hockey journey. Maybe someday you can give me a name of a Wisconsin Fire lad that made it to the pros.

Good Luck!

The number of Mn players being drafted in the NHL did go down last year to 15 down from 17 the year before. Mn ranks 4th in USA Hockey in registared players yet since 2000 Minnesota has had 92 players drafted by the NHL out of a total of 395 US players. Next comes Mass with 55, Mich with 45, and N.Y. with 45. If you add D1 players Minn for 04 (208)and 05 (205) with the next closest was Mass with 159 in 04 and in 05 mass had 149. Association community based teams work, and there is a pretty good rumor going around that if a number of states had a chance to change their setup they would copy the community based programs. If you get a chance go to a national tournament, before Mn stopped going the teams that went competed very well.
As for the fire if you want to spend the money and play AAA go ahead just do not be offended if some teams say no to playing you. Yes some are there because their home association does not have an A level team and others are there because of differences with the association and others truely feel this is the way for their 9-16 year old to get noticed.
If I were a team playing the fire I would verify their USA roster to make sure everything is in order including the proper signature by WAHA. By playing in Mn they are crossing USA Hockey District boundaries. It would be a shame if an association team got burned by playing a non properly registared team.

Greybeard:

No reason to throw out the MN Hockey doubt about IF the Fire Hockey Club is properly registered with WAHA. The teams are properly registered just like our MN teams are properly registered. Your subtle question reminds me of the tactics which some MN Districts (MN Hockey) were engaged in last year by throwing out doubt if the Fire had the proper registration. Think everyone sees through that this year!

THE RUMOR being spread that other states want to go back to community based hockey is interesting. The parents of Tier 1 (out state) players are NOT spreading that rumor. Not sure who actually want to go back to association hockey except for the MN Hockey folks. Keep in mind that any boy has the option to go back to AA hockey if it does not work out for whatever reason in his home state. In the US, the Tier 1 program is growing. MA teams are now playing Tier 1 hockey. Unfortunately, the MA teams are struggling due to the fact that there are too many teams representing MA and thus diluting the strength of the teams. Hopefully they can continue to develop their talent to compete at the Tier 1 level.

Say I would be willing to bet old greybeard is an official of some sort of MN hockey, Asking about them being properly registered give me a break but it's ok for Omaha, and Colorado or Iowa to come here and play.

I would agree if all associations were created equal. But their not! Not even close, so what’s the difference from moving to a different area, I don't see anybody moving to let say, Mounds view, Como, Johnson area.

Why don't you people just shut -up and let the kids play the game.

But stay in your small associations where most of the kids do nothing to improve in the off-season, but all want to be a players. Keep dreaming. P.S. all players start at their associations; there is no other place to play. But the point is they ALL LEFT! SO KEEP TALKING OUT OF YOUR A*$#@

Let me throw this question back at some of the Minnesota Hockey pushers.
If your son was a Peewee or Bantam age skater who happened to be a very talented player. Not the next Gretzky but a player most would consider a top player at his age group. You live in a community that has no A program. In fact if your son does not play they will be lucky to win more than a handful of games at the B level. Would you keep him there or would you find a different option?

The rumor is that if a number of governing bodies had the chance they would copy the community based idea.That came from out east. In some areas AAA has gotten out of hand and the governing bodies are having trouble such as in the nationals last year with the 4 team shoot out. The money spent on these teams is very large 8-9 years ago for 1 team it was $15,000 per player and when attending a game you can see the parents are well aware of their investment. You have parents fighting in the lobby as in the year Bloomington hosted the Nationals.
You don't think that given the chance some one wouldn't turn in a team if they knew the possibilities of getting them bounced from a District tournament. If the USA roster is not signed by the correct people the roster means nothing and the team is playing in this state as an unregistered team, if you think I am incorrect contact you local registrar or District Director. Just remember how some people feel about certain associations and how many would jump at the chance to get them into a little trouble? The statement is not for only the fire but all teams that you might see in a tournament, mainly from outside of the state, just cya some teams care only that they play a game and not the problem it could cause you.

Didnt the Fire register as tier II this season? And why do we really care who or where they play. If those parents are nuts enough to travel and spend the money let em, when they dont play D1 or even in the nahl they can look back and see where it got them.