Development is YOUR responsibility

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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muckandgrinder65
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Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by muckandgrinder65 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:07 am

As my kid approaches his senior year and last year of hockey, I think back about what I may have done differently to help my kid’s development. If you are not a coach, it’s your responsibility to educate yourself and to be mindful of what’s good development, coaching, etc. The coach will do what they can during the season but in the end it’s up to the parents.
Please don’t drop your kid off and head to bar or coffee shop and expect that all is well.
Also- encourage your kid to skate with the puck- end to end- go for it!
The kids we used to complain about being puck hogs when they were mites are getting D1 looks and offers now. Everyone loves the kid who passes but it doesn’t always translate to skill development or making the top team.
Good Luck all you mite parents-
Time flies!!

skatez
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Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by skatez » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:06 pm

So don't trust the coach and don't pass the puck....... got it. I think most parents got this one covered. Thanks.

goldy313
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Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by goldy313 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am

No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.

zooomx
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Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by zooomx » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:39 pm

goldy313 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am
No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.
That ship has sailed for MN Hockey. There will always be for-profit entities out there who promise development for the right amount of money. With AAA programs knocking on the door, MN hockey had no choice but to expand programming.

However, I personally do not believe in outstate MN you need to be rich to play. You can be a 2 or 3 sport athlete, play association hockey and if you are a good enough athlete you will be "found". In my hometown, we have scholarships and find ways for anyone to play, regardless of background. If it's expensive in your town, it may be the result of lack of support from the community (high ice rates), or an association board that just does not get it. It's not necessarily MN Hockey's fault.

Best athletes are wresting?? Really? I have seen quite a handful of Dads with strong wrestling backgrounds put their kids in hockey. Maybe its a community by community issue.

yesiplayedhockey
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Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:53 am

My advice to any parent with young kids is simply this.

1. Learn to say NO.. Once you say yes, you're hooked and you can never turn back again
2. Do not over train your kid (kids today are zombies...to many lack creativity/high IQ.)...IMO, anyone who tells you 6:00am training sessions before school work, is simply stealing money from you
3. Do not get wrapped up in what team they make (in fact, it's probably better to play down then play up)
4. Shut down hockey completely in the summer months (June / July ) until the kid gets older (like Bantam or higher)
5. The best training for any kid is pond hockey in the winter and shooting pucks against your garage door in the summer
6. Get on a 3x3 league....Small space hockey is great for development
7. Make sure they have the opportunity to play every position even as late as pee wee's or bantams

I could list out about another 20-30 tips but the way this forum has gotten lately I'm pretty sure multiple people will disagree with almost all of my first seven.

O-townClown
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Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by O-townClown » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:49 pm

yesiplayedhockey wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:53 am
I could list out about another 20-30 tips but the way this forum has gotten lately I'm pretty sure multiple people will disagree with almost all of my first seven.
These are good. No disagreement here.

I also agree with his don't pass idea above. It shouldn't be parent driven, but how a team plays as a whole. Skate first, then figure out what you are going to do with the puck. I won't bore you with my longer explanation, but suffice to say coaches telling kids to pass at age 9 and younger is crap if they don't understand the necessary elements for effective passing.
Be kind. Rewind.

goldy313
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Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by goldy313 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:37 am

zooomx wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:39 pm
goldy313 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am
No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.
That ship has sailed for MN Hockey. There will always be for-profit entities out there who promise development for the right amount of money. With AAA programs knocking on the door, MN hockey had no choice but to expand programming.

However, I personally do not believe in outstate MN you need to be rich to play. You can be a 2 or 3 sport athlete, play association hockey and if you are a good enough athlete you will be "found". In my hometown, we have scholarships and find ways for anyone to play, regardless of background. If it's expensive in your town, it may be the result of lack of support from the community (high ice rates), or an association board that just does not get it. It's not necessarily MN Hockey's fault.

Best athletes are wresting?? Really? I have seen quite a handful of Dads with strong wrestling backgrounds put their kids in hockey. Maybe its a community by community issue.
Dead serious here.... how many more schools have wrestling than hockey?

Hockey is dying.

I can give you strong hockey dads who had kids that wrestle, I am one. Much to my chagrin.

Best athletes! No! Most can’t walk and chew gum. Good lord 90% can’t even puck handle and skate with their heads up. Their parents can afford hockey while most can not.

again,espn put over 10 hours of NCAA wrestling on ESPN, no NCAA hockey made it on ESPN, not even 1 hour. They put more Lacrosse, women’s soccer and swimming on than hockey.

Hockey is a dying fringe sport outside the NHL.

The buffoons at USA hockey need to figure out how to get more kids involved instead of using girls numbers and adult leagues to show an increase in numbers

JSR
Posts: 1675
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Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by JSR » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:20 pm

goldy313 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:37 am
zooomx wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:39 pm
goldy313 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am
No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.
That ship has sailed for MN Hockey. There will always be for-profit entities out there who promise development for the right amount of money. With AAA programs knocking on the door, MN hockey had no choice but to expand programming.

However, I personally do not believe in outstate MN you need to be rich to play. You can be a 2 or 3 sport athlete, play association hockey and if you are a good enough athlete you will be "found". In my hometown, we have scholarships and find ways for anyone to play, regardless of background. If it's expensive in your town, it may be the result of lack of support from the community (high ice rates), or an association board that just does not get it. It's not necessarily MN Hockey's fault.

Best athletes are wresting?? Really? I have seen quite a handful of Dads with strong wrestling backgrounds put their kids in hockey. Maybe its a community by community issue.
Dead serious here.... how many more schools have wrestling than hockey?

Hockey is dying.

I can give you strong hockey dads who had kids that wrestle, I am one. Much to my chagrin.

Best athletes! No! Most can’t walk and chew gum. Good lord 90% can’t even puck handle and skate with their heads up. Their parents can afford hockey while most can not.

again,espn put over 10 hours of NCAA wrestling on ESPN, no NCAA hockey made it on ESPN, not even 1 hour. They put more Lacrosse, women’s soccer and swimming on than hockey.

Hockey is a dying fringe sport outside the NHL.

The buffoons at USA hockey need to figure out how to get more kids involved instead of using girls numbers and adult leagues to show an increase in numbers
More schools have wrestling than hockey because wrestling has a very low overhead as far as expense so having it doesn't entail he costs hockey does for a school.... with that said and with all due respect the collegiate national championship game was on ESPN so there were about 2.5 hours of NCAA hockey on ESPN but the reason there isn't more NCAA hockey on ESPN is not because it doesn't wish to cover it but rather because NBCSports, Fox, and BTN own all the regular season collegiate hockey rights. Between those three networks there are dozens of college hockey games being televised nationwide every single week. Far more exposure, TV viewing opportunity and better ratings than "wrestling" has ever had. So your information about TV coverage is not exactly accurate. Also, the number of collegiate hockey programs has actually been growing over the last 10 years not decreasing. While I do not pretend that college hockey is on the level of football or basketball it is also not exactly "dying" either.

Jeffy95
Posts: 748
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:00 am

goldy313 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am
No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.
Wrestlers are very disciplined, hard working and some great kids. They are not the best athletes.
Not even close.....

Jeffy95
Posts: 748
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:01 am

goldy313 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am
No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.
Wrestlers are very disciplined, hard working and some great kids. They are not the best athletes.
Not even close.....

jg2112
Posts: 524
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:36 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by jg2112 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:01 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:01 am
goldy313 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am
No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.
Wrestlers are very disciplined, hard working and some great kids. They are not the best athletes.
Not even close.....
I'm not sure how you can make this definitive statement. I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, but I don't think you're 100% right either.

For my money, the best athlete on the planet for a number of years was Brock Lesnar. Who else do we know that can do moonsaults and all the other ridiculous stunts WWE wrestlers perform, turn around and win UFC titles, and have the ability to go through a NFL training camp?

He's just one example. Kurt Angle, Chad Gable (the former Olympic wrestler Charles Betts, from STMA), Shelton Benjamin and now Gable Stevenson. All current or former NCAA wrestlers. Look at these guys's accomplishments and physical abilities. It's really hard to argue they aren't some of the best athletes in the world.

Have a look at a few former NFL players who wrestled in HS or college: Jim Thorpe - Ray Lewis - Larry Csonka - Tiki Barber - Ronnie Lott - Bo Jackson (who was one of the best athletes in the 1980s).

You'll have to let me know who you consider the best athletes in sport if you think wrestlers are "not even close" to being the best athletes around. I'm not criticizing other sportspeople, but I have a hard time discounting the evidence.

Jeffy95
Posts: 748
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:05 pm

jg2112 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:01 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:01 am
goldy313 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am
No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.
Wrestlers are very disciplined, hard working and some great kids. They are not the best athletes.
Not even close.....
I'm not sure how you can make this definitive statement. I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, but I don't think you're 100% right either.

For my money, the best athlete on the planet for a number of years was Brock Lesnar. Who else do we know that can do moonsaults and all the other ridiculous stunts WWE wrestlers perform, turn around and win UFC titles, and have the ability to go through a NFL training camp?

He's just one example. Kurt Angle, Chad Gable (the former Olympic wrestler Charles Betts, from STMA), Shelton Benjamin and now Gable Stevenson. All current or former NCAA wrestlers. Look at these guys's accomplishments and physical abilities. It's really hard to argue they aren't some of the best athletes in the world.

Have a look at a few former NFL players who wrestled in HS or college: Jim Thorpe - Ray Lewis - Larry Csonka - Tiki Barber - Ronnie Lott - Bo Jackson (who was one of the best athletes in the 1980s).

You'll have to let me know who you consider the best athletes in sport if you think wrestlers are "not even close" to being the best athletes around. I'm not criticizing other sportspeople, but I have a hard time discounting the evidence.
My post was too vague and I should have explained better. I was more focused on High School wrestling, which the original post was about. I've known many High School wrestlers in my life and very few of them excelled at any other sport. No doubt you can find some who do. I just mean on average and only in my personal observations. But if you have a chance to hire one, I would suggest you do it. Very disciplined and hard working.

goldy313
Posts: 3250
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by goldy313 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:05 am

Very few excelled at at any other sport.... literally that may be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read. Iowa football linemen, nearly all were wrestlers. When some of the greatest athletes clearly wrestled as posted.

I have known wrestlers that can barely read and write, same with hockey players. If you look at the military’s finest.... Navy Seals, Army Green Berets, Air Force Pararescue jumpers, etc. you will not find a whole bunch of hockey players. You will find a whole bunch of wrestling alumni.

Hockey needs to do a better job of being accessible by more kids or else they will continue to decline.

If you ask me Gymnasts are the best athletes hockey players are below most sports. Hockey players are, usually, one sport athletes now. Basketball is a close second.

zooomx
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by zooomx » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:34 am

goldy313 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:37 am
zooomx wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:39 pm
goldy313 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 am
No, the best athletes are playing basketball or wrestling. Continue to make hockey inaccessible to 80% of the population.

Development is a minor issue. If the kid can’t afford to even play hockey after the 4th grade development does not matter. Income does not equal talent. MN hockey better wrap their heads around that concept or hockey will become even a more fringe sport.
That ship has sailed for MN Hockey. There will always be for-profit entities out there who promise development for the right amount of money. With AAA programs knocking on the door, MN hockey had no choice but to expand programming.

However, I personally do not believe in outstate MN you need to be rich to play. You can be a 2 or 3 sport athlete, play association hockey and if you are a good enough athlete you will be "found". In my hometown, we have scholarships and find ways for anyone to play, regardless of background. If it's expensive in your town, it may be the result of lack of support from the community (high ice rates), or an association board that just does not get it. It's not necessarily MN Hockey's fault.

Best athletes are wresting?? Really? I have seen quite a handful of Dads with strong wrestling backgrounds put their kids in hockey. Maybe its a community by community issue.
Dead serious here.... how many more schools have wrestling than hockey?

Hockey is dying.

I can give you strong hockey dads who had kids that wrestle, I am one. Much to my chagrin.

Best athletes! No! Most can’t walk and chew gum. Good lord 90% can’t even puck handle and skate with their heads up. Their parents can afford hockey while most can not.

again,espn put over 10 hours of NCAA wrestling on ESPN, no NCAA hockey made it on ESPN, not even 1 hour. They put more Lacrosse, women’s soccer and swimming on than hockey.

Hockey is a dying fringe sport outside the NHL.

The buffoons at USA hockey need to figure out how to get more kids involved instead of using girls numbers and adult leagues to show an increase in numbers
To start with, you can't judge a sports popularity based upon ESPN... a dying brand.

Hockey is not dying. I spent some time looking at participation numbers. USA Hockey and MN Hockey are still showing increases in the U8 Boys category. However, there is a slight decrease in high school hockey participation, which is something to watch. It may be dying in some areas, yet is growing in others. You are correct that there are some issues USA and MN Hockey need to address in terms of cost to play. A lot of these issues are magnified by bad decisions made at the local level. Often, associations tend to cater to the louder parents of "elite" players and make decisions to benefit them. There are a lot of associations that cater to all skaters of all skill levels and do a great job in both recruiting and keeping hockey affordable. There are great athletes in both wrestling, hockey and many other sports. Blanket statements are just silly in this regard. Some schools have prolific wresting histories, and tend to draw the best athletes. Some schools have prolific hockey histories, and tend to draw the best athletes.

Also, there is this:

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/high-s ... -some.html

Overall, hockey will never be as popular as sports such as basketball, because the built in costs due to facilities and equipment needed is much higher. Can the powers that be do better to keep it affordable? Definitely! Is it dying? No.

goldy313
Posts: 3250
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by goldy313 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:36 pm

I agree with you almost 100%.

I will add I think most sports are dying due to specialization. Football being different to the negative because of concussions. Track and Cross Country to the positive being different because everyone gets to compete.

Trap shooting is growing exponentially.

Hockey needs to figure out how to get the minority population involved or they will die. I had a conversation with the St. Peter wrestling coach a couple of years ago. I asked why he had so many Hispanic wrestlers, his reply startled me. Those are our students, if I don’t get them our program will die. Hockey needs to grasp that concept. Quickly.

Canada has, nearly every NHL team as at least one, sorry, Negro on their team if not more than one. Has the U of M ever had an African American player? How many have played in the Big 10?

I follow hockey in section 1, largely Rochester. Rochester is the 3rd largest city in the state and with the Mayo Clinic and IBM a very affluent and diverse city. To my knowledge only one African American had ever lettered in hockey at the 3 public high schools, and that was in 1986. 33 years ago, that is an embarrassment to Rochester youth hockey and Minnesota hockey. It is inexcusable.

zooomx
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by zooomx » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:25 pm

goldy313 wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:36 pm
I agree with you almost 100%.

I will add I think most sports are dying due to specialization. Football being different to the negative because of concussions. Track and Cross Country to the positive being different because everyone gets to compete.

Trap shooting is growing exponentially.

Hockey needs to figure out how to get the minority population involved or they will die. I had a conversation with the St. Peter wrestling coach a couple of years ago. I asked why he had so many Hispanic wrestlers, his reply startled me. Those are our students, if I don’t get them our program will die. Hockey needs to grasp that concept. Quickly.

Canada has, nearly every NHL team as at least one, sorry, Negro on their team if not more than one. Has the U of M ever had an African American player? How many have played in the Big 10?

I follow hockey in section 1, largely Rochester. Rochester is the 3rd largest city in the state and with the Mayo Clinic and IBM a very affluent and diverse city. To my knowledge only one African American had ever lettered in hockey at the 3 public high schools, and that was in 1986. 33 years ago, that is an embarrassment to Rochester youth hockey and Minnesota hockey. It is inexcusable.

My kids both just finished hockey in Alexandria, and we are seeing more African-American players here and there around the state. You are correct that there needs to be more outreach to families of all economic and racial backgrounds to continue to grow the sport. Your comment on specialization is right on. We see it around here in baseball, softball, and many other sports. The bigger issue is travel teams in a lot of these sports. Travel teams are set up by the time the kids are in 3rd grade. By classifying those teams as AAA, AA, A, or something similar, families feel the pecking order is set and they give up on a sport. It used to be that most sports were purely recreational until kids got to middle school. Everyone played in middle school and it wasn't until high school that families would give up. Now they are giving up far earlier. Can't tell you how many late bloomers I have seen who are just athletic studs as Junior or Seniors, but have given up on sports by 7th or 8th grade. Unfortunately, we are at a spot where so many families are looking for year round training at a very early age in order to give their kid "a leg up" on the competition. I don't know what the answer is to fix this.

goldy313
Posts: 3250
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by goldy313 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:08 am

You are spot on.

A mea culpa... John Marshall had an African American letter for the third straight year and I missed him. Inexcusable on my part.

GoldenBear
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:38 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by GoldenBear » Wed May 01, 2019 2:54 pm

goldy313 wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:36 pm
Has the U of M ever had an African American player? How many have played in the Big 10?
.
I believe Kyle Okposo is the first and last to date. GB

goldy313
Posts: 3250
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: Development is YOUR responsibility

Post by goldy313 » Sun May 05, 2019 12:24 am

The U needs to be more proactive in this regard. There have been a few kids in Mankato that deserved a shot as a 3rd - 4th line player over a USHL also ran Lucia seemed to like.

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