Two Rivers AA?

[stateofhawkey]

I was just getting ready to create a post saying, "Is this the year we take Two Rivers seriously in 4A?" I saw they beat Providence and Bloomington Jefferson, and lost a close one to ranked Hibbing/Chisholm. I thought for sure that would garner a little respect in A. BUT, I then noticed they are in 3AA this season. And pretty much all results were tossed out my proverbial window, because, they can rack up wins against A opponents all they want, but, come Section play they won't be able to compete with STA, Cretin, or Rosemount. When did they get moved to AA? Is that new this season? Bit of a tough break for them because they probably would be the 2 seed in 4A this year.

[ClassAGuy]

I was just getting ready to create a post saying, "Is this the year we take Two Rivers seriously in 4A?" I saw they beat Providence and Bloomington Jefferson, and lost a close one to ranked Hibbing/Chisholm. I thought for sure that would garner a little respect in A. BUT, I then noticed they are in 3AA this season. And pretty much all results were tossed out my proverbial window, because, they can rack up wins against A opponents all they want, but, come Section play they won't be able to compete with STA, Cretin, or Rosemount. When did they get moved to AA? Is that new this season? Bit of a tough break for them because they probably would be the 2 seed in 4A this year.

Yes they are in 3AA was announced back in April when MSHSL did the new enrollment numbers like they do every 2 years

Two Rivers enrollment was 1202 which was 1 Kid Over the Class A Enrollment line set at 1201 and had to move up like Waconia, Cambridge Isanti & New Prague as well.

They appealed and lost and because they were 1 kid over they were bumped up to AA Logical MSHSL as always

[stateofhawkey]

Wow! 1 kid??? That's nuts. They should've demanded a recount!

[ClassAGuy]

Wow! 1 kid??? That's nuts. They should've demanded a recount!

Well South St Paul beats Two Rivers tonight 5-3 Final not sure the #2 seed in 4A was happening anyways...

[stateofhawkey]

I am very puzzled by that final score.

[xy]

Shots last night were 41-24 Two Rivers so goaltending might be part of it.

Somebody has to be the smallest school in a class, but the way it happened to Two Rivers across all sports, not just hockey, was a kick in the shins. Enrollment went up, and they passed a few Mpls/St. Paul high schools whose enrollment went down due to enrollment changes in part attributable to COVID. In numerous sports kids who might have had chances to compete in state meets/tournaments (not talking about hockey here) had they stayed down in class levels where they'd been for two years, and where they belong given demographics and realities of district, saw that taken away.

[goldy313]

Nortfield was in AA until they dropped their Co-op with Randolph and went to A. That put Sibley in AA.

[ClassAGuy]

Nortfield was in AA until they dropped their Co-op with Randolph and went to A. That put Sibley in AA.

This is not true.

Both Northfield and Two Rivers were AA when the new sections came out in April last spring. Yes NFLD did drop the co-op with Randolph over the summer to drop back into the Class A. However, this had nothing to do with Two Rivers who was already over the line and was, as xy correctly pointed out, the last team put into the AA they are the cut off line.

Again, NFLD had nothing to do with Two Rivers being AA. They were both there at the start back when the adjustments were announced in April by MSHSL

Also, St Paul Johnson was Class A when the new section came out. However, in the summer they add co-ops with schools to save their program and were bumped up into AA this Fall. Again, this had nothing to do with Two River being in AA.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

Shots last night were 41-24 Two Rivers so goaltending might be part of it.

Somebody has to be the smallest school in a class, but the way it happened to Two Rivers across all sports, not just hockey, was a kick in the shins. Enrollment went up, and they passed a few Mpls/St. Paul high schools whose enrollment went down due to enrollment changes in part attributable to COVID. In numerous sports kids who might have had chances to compete in state meets/tournaments (not talking about hockey here) had they stayed down in class levels where they'd been for two years, and where they belong given demographics and realities of district, saw that taken away.

One could easily say that another school's students were given chances to compete in state tournaments/events by Deux Rivoirs moving up to AA. And had the rules been bent to accommodate Two Rivers, what about the next school? Do they get moved down too? Where would that end?

The line has to be drawn somewhere, and wherever that is, it will be somewhat arbitrary. A couple years ago, we allowed college "student" athletes an extra year of eligibility due to the loss of a season due to covid. Uh, yeah, there are only 5 players allowed on the basketball court at one time, so the incoming "student" athletes were screwed, they had more competition for those 5 slots.

[xy]

The ideal would not be bending the rules, but a world in which the rules made a bit more sense. Such as one in which Mahtomedi and St Thomas Academy were not somehow playing a class below Two Rivers in hockey. Going strictly by class size is administratively the easiest way, and in reality probably the only way they can do it, but it leads to absurdities.

[bardown27]

The ideal would not be bending the rules, but a world in which the rules made a bit more sense. Such as one in which Mahtomedi and St Thomas Academy were not somehow playing a class below Two Rivers in hockey. Going strictly by class size is administratively the easiest way, and in reality probably the only way they can do it, but it leads to absurdities.

St. Thomas isn't playing a class below.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

The ideal would not be bending the rules, but a world in which the rules made a bit more sense. Such as one in which Mahtomedi and St Thomas Academy were not somehow playing a class below Two Rivers in hockey. Going strictly by class size is administratively the easiest way, and in reality probably the only way they can do it, but it leads to absurdities.

How do the current rules not make sense? And, what would be a better standard than enrollment? I'll go out on a limb here, it sounds like you're suggesting that we go back to a Tier I/Tier II situation, and that was a complete disaster. Why else would you make the point about Mahtomedi and STA (which opts to play up, but could and did play A)? Even forcing a team to play up after winning a number of section championships seems like a bad idea. Class A folks advocate for the talent level there, but saying you can't be too good and remain in Class A is quite an admission that A is for the middling teams.

The only exception to going by straight enrollment, in my eyes, is accommodation for poverty. Correct me if I'm wrong (my kids do it every day), but there is now elite leaguers and training for hockey, volleyball, basketball, and softball. If there are elite leagues for football or rasslin', they aren't on my radar. The other situation is where a school has 400 kids whose parents came from a place where there was no hockey, or football, or whatever. If your Dad never even heard of a sport when he was growing up, you are very unlikely to play that sport. There are exceptions, of course, but they remain rare.

[xy]

I am not suggesting Tier I and II. What would be nice with respect to hockey in particular is a method that serves the purpose for which a second class was created, which was to provide an opportunity for schools that, for economic, historical, and other reasons, would never have any hope of making the state tournament. I believe it’s fair to say a system which lets Hermantown stay in the lower class of that tournament does not advance that goal. Probably more than in most sports the correlation between size and competitive level is less strong in hockey, for financial and historical reasons.

The devil, of course, is in the details, and I expressly said there probably isn’t a realistic way to use any other system.

[ClassAGuy]

I am not suggesting Tier I and II. What would be nice with respect to hockey in particular is a method that serves the purpose for which a second class was created, which was to provide an opportunity for schools that, for economic, historical, and other reasons, would never have any hope of making the state tournament. I believe it’s fair to say a system which lets Hermantown stay in the lower class of that tournament does not advance that goal. Probably more than in most sports the correlation between size and competitive level is less strong in hockey, for financial and historical reasons.

The devil, of course, is in the details, and I expressly said there probably isn’t a realistic way to use any other system.

Its tough for sure and I think valid points raised.

I think the bigger issue is why are some granted the ability to move down with AA enrollment like Minneapolis but schools like Two Rivers are denied on their appeal to do the same thing. That is where I think we start getting into the gray with the MSHSL. MPLS is 3 times the size of Two Rivers has recent hockey success and they are granted the ability to stay in A yet Two RIvers who had had limited success and if 1 kid over the line is denied. Those choices are tough to swallow I think.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

Most teams, in most sports, don't have any realistic hope of winning a section championship. When was the last time a team entered section play in any sport, and shocked everyone by winning the section? I'm talking about 6/7/8 seed.

There are a lot of kids who don't have a chance of making it to a state tournament precisely because they are enrolled in a school with a top tier program. I was one of those kids. I could have played varsity had I gone to my local public high school, and that team had no chance of winning a section title. Either way, I didn't have a chance to go to state. My choices were to go to Hill and continue in youth hockey, or go to the public school and play varsity. The kids at Two Rivers will get 25 regular season games, and one or more section games. That's a great deal, and it shouldn't be diminished.

Maybe we need to allow the kids that get cut at Tonka and White Bear to field a B team. Just like Pee Wees and Bantams, why not have B teams for those kids? White Bear's castoffs would probably put Two Rivers on running time, and shouldn't those castoffs have some hope of participating in a state tournament?

We're getting into Everybody Get A Trophy Territory here. And the kids figure that scam out pretty quick.