Tier One Hockey vs Minnesota

itsmorefun · Post by **itsmorefun** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:20 pm

I've just finished reading a couple of threads that commented on some upcoming Shattuck games. It got me thinking...

How is it that Shattuck, a tier one hockey program in Minnesota, can have so much respect and positive aura from the Minnesota hockey world, but Minnesota Made or Fire Hockey, which is also considered Tier One or AAA, continues to get so much grief from the Minnesota hockey world?

Anyone wanna comment???

HockeyMN1 · Post by **HockeyMN1** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:32 pm

Cause SSM is an actual high school and MM or Wisconsin Fire are youth club organizations that really have no place in youth mn tournaments. MM is mostly summer/AAA teams to my belief but Wisconsin Fire is really ridiculous being a winter team thats in normal tournaments. Plus why "Wisconsin" Fire when every player is from MN? It's stupid.

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:43 pm

itsmorefun wrote:I've just finished reading a couple of threads that commented on some upcoming Shattuck games. It got me thinking...

How is it that Shattuck, a tier one hockey program in Minnesota, can have so much respect and positive ora from the Minnesota hockey world, but Minnesota Made or Fire Hockey, which is also considered Tier One or AAA, continues to get so much grief from the Minnesota hockey world?

Anyone wanna comment???

Grief from Tier One, AAA hockey in MN I don't understand...

BUT

SSM does get a lot of respect and positive ora because they earn it. Many, and I mean many players currently playing for D1 colleges, QMJHL, NHL, etc. have gone to SSM. And not just MN players are on the SSM roster, they are from MN, WI, AK, Canada, and overseas! Many elite players from diverse locations are known to play there.

russiawithlove · Post by **russiawithlove** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:46 pm

why, u can thank mn hockey for the tier 1 teams having to practice in wisconsin, the fire practice right on the border of wisconsin and mn and i remember when team midwest existed, a similar team to the fire, they practiced in river falls, wisconsin. thank mn hockey for their ridiculous rules causing these tier one programs to practice in wisconsin

starmvp · Post by **starmvp** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:04 pm

Yes, I think the main reason for this is the fact that Shattuck is a high school.

HockeyMN1 · Post by **HockeyMN1** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:04 pm

russiawithlove wrote:why, u can thank mn hockey for the tier 1 teams having to practice in wisconsin, the fire practice right on the border of wisconsin and mn and i remember when team midwest existed, a similar team to the fire, they practiced in river falls, wisconsin. thank mn hockey for their ridiculous rules causing these tier one programs to practice in wisconsin

No, good for MN hockey for doing this. These fire teams shouldn't exist anyways. They usually aren't the best teams in the state and kids should play with their cities. Anything to deter people from playing with the fire is good.

starmvp · Post by **starmvp** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:07 pm

HockeyMN1 wrote:
russiawithlove wrote:why, u can thank mn hockey for the tier 1 teams having to practice in wisconsin, the fire practice right on the border of wisconsin and mn and i remember when team midwest existed, a similar team to the fire, they practiced in river falls, wisconsin. thank mn hockey for their ridiculous rules causing these tier one programs to practice in wisconsin
No, good for MN hockey for doing this. These fire teams shouldn't exist anyways. They usually aren't the best teams in the state and kids should play with their cities. Anything to deter people from playing with the fire is good.

Totally agree. I've never liked the fire, etc....

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:17 pm

starmvp wrote:
HockeyMN1 wrote:
russiawithlove wrote:why, u can thank mn hockey for the tier 1 teams having to practice in wisconsin, the fire practice right on the border of wisconsin and mn and i remember when team midwest existed, a similar team to the fire, they practiced in river falls, wisconsin. thank mn hockey for their ridiculous rules causing these tier one programs to practice in wisconsin
No, good for MN hockey for doing this. These fire teams shouldn't exist anyways. They usually aren't the best teams in the state and kids should play with their cities. Anything to deter people from playing with the fire is good.
Totally agree. I've never liked the fire, etc....

Why shouldn't they exist? They pose no harm to MN hockey, and they (Fire) are a great summer team to play on. Why does a kid have to play for their city? (something tells me you are not a fan of private school teams)

russiawithlove · Post by **russiawithlove** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:25 pm

something tells me i agree with pucku126. people can play wherever they want

HockeyMN1 · Post by **HockeyMN1** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:27 pm

PuckU126 wrote:
starmvp wrote:
HockeyMN1 wrote: No, good for MN hockey for doing this. These fire teams shouldn't exist anyways. They usually aren't the best teams in the state and kids should play with their cities. Anything to deter people from playing with the fire is good.
Totally agree. I've never liked the fire, etc....
Why shouldn't they exist? They pose no harm to MN hockey, and they (Fire) are a great summer team to play on. Why does a kid have to play for their city? (something tells me you are not a fan of private school teams)

I'm fine with private high school teams but the fire is essentially a club team at the youth level. This is different from a high school, and it does harm MN hockey because it gets kids out of youth organizations which can really put them in trouble when high school rolls around.

russiawithlove · Post by **russiawithlove** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:35 pm

it only puts the kids in trouble because mn high school hockey hates the tier one teams so as a result, if u come from a tier one team, the school team wont be in favor of u and u will most likely get screwed if you try to play for a high school team. MN hockey wants to ensure that high school hockey is the only mn hockey occurring at the high school level. MN hockey has a huge ego and thinks their hockey is the best and only the best.

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:40 pm

HockeyMN1 wrote:
PuckU126 wrote:
starmvp wrote:Totally agree. I've never liked the fire, etc....
Why shouldn't they exist? They pose no harm to MN hockey, and they (Fire) are a great summer team to play on. Why does a kid have to play for their city? (something tells me you are not a fan of private school teams)
I'm fine with private high school teams but the fire is essentially a club team at the youth level. This is different from a high school, and it does harm MN hockey because it gets kids out of youth organizations which can really put them in trouble when high school rolls around.

But club teams offer different opinions for the kids as well. Club teams do travel more and most of the time play more competitive teams (not in all cases). I understand your reasoning, but some players (and their parents) want to develop and experience hockey in a different way. Hockey players should be given the opportunity and freedom to play where they may.

Danglesnipe&celly Tro · Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:42 pm

They earn it they have so many alums who have made it big. Maybe the names Sidney Crosby, Jonathan toews, and zach parise ring a bell.

HockeyMN1 · Post by **HockeyMN1** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:50 pm

PuckU126 wrote:
HockeyMN1 wrote:
PuckU126 wrote: Why shouldn't they exist? They pose no harm to MN hockey, and they (Fire) are a great summer team to play on. Why does a kid have to play for their city? (something tells me you are not a fan of private school teams)
I'm fine with private high school teams but the fire is essentially a club team at the youth level. This is different from a high school, and it does harm MN hockey because it gets kids out of youth organizations which can really put them in trouble when high school rolls around.
But club teams offer different opinions for the kids as well. Club teams do travel more and most of the time play more competitive teams (not in all cases). I understand your reasoning, but some players (and their parents) want to develop and experience hockey in a different way. Hockey players should be given the opportunity and freedom to play where they may.

Different opinions? You lost me. It provides a slightly different experience, the only thing being travel. I don't see why that is necessary though because, unlike in baseball and basketball, the best teams are in your own backyard here. The quality only goes down when you go away. And when Minnesota kids go to Shattuck, they ususally leave public high schools so it's not like you can't do association hockey and then make it to that level.

itsmorefun · Post by **itsmorefun** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:56 pm

[quote="Danglesnipe&celly Tro"]They earn it they have so many alums who have made it big. Maybe the names Sidney Crosby, Jonathan toews, and zach parise ring a bell.[/quote]

This is precisely my point. All three of those guys played Tier One hockey as a youth player and then went to Shattuck....

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:06 pm

HockeyMN1 wrote:
PuckU126 wrote:
HockeyMN1 wrote: I'm fine with private high school teams but the fire is essentially a club team at the youth level. This is different from a high school, and it does harm MN hockey because it gets kids out of youth organizations which can really put them in trouble when high school rolls around.
But club teams offer different opinions for the kids as well. Club teams do travel more and most of the time play more competitive teams (not in all cases). I understand your reasoning, but some players (and their parents) want to develop and experience hockey in a different way. Hockey players should be given the opportunity and freedom to play where they may.
Different opinions? You lost me. It provides a slightly different experience, the only thing being travel. I don't see why that is necessary though because, unlike in baseball and basketball, the best teams are in your own backyard here. The quality only goes down when you go away. And when Minnesota kids go to Shattuck, they ususally leave public high schools so it's not like you can't do association hockey and then make it to that level.

I disagree. We clearly have different experiences.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:06 pm

If Shattuck-St. Mary's entered their teams at the MSHSL level you would not be feeling the positive aura.

In attracting players from throughout North American and even beyond, S-SM isn't exactly tearing down the fabric of Minnesota's community-based hockey model.

The Fire program draws the ire of many, even in Wisconsin, because for it to exist it has to impact local programs. Yes, some people are resistant to that.

itsmorefun · Post by **itsmorefun** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:16 pm

[quote="O-townClown"]If Shattuck-St. Mary's entered their teams at the MSHSL level you would not be feeling the positive aura.

In attracting players from throughout North American and even beyond, S-SM isn't exactly tearing down the fabric of Minnesota's community-based hockey model.

The Fire program draws the ire of many, even in Wisconsin, because for it to exist it has to impact local programs. Yes, some people are resistant to that.[/quote]

With 53,000 kids in Minnesota playing hockey... I doubt the 30 kids Fire hockey draws is really impacting local programs....

Post by **karl(east)** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:27 pm

itsmorefun wrote:
O-townClown wrote:If Shattuck-St. Mary's entered their teams at the MSHSL level you would not be feeling the positive aura.

In attracting players from throughout North American and even beyond, S-SM isn't exactly tearing down the fabric of Minnesota's community-based hockey model.

The Fire program draws the ire of many, even in Wisconsin, because for it to exist it has to impact local programs. Yes, some people are resistant to that.

With 53,000 kids in Minnesota playing hockey... I doubt the 30 kids Fire hockey draws is really impacting local programs....

I'm going to wade into this discussion for the first time. *cringes*

I agree with that, though. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but most of the Fire kids in MN came from small associations, often ones with no A teams, or a very uncompetitive A teams. This is a sign of market failure...these kids, for the most part, did not have good options. I believe MrBoDangles would be the man to ask about such situations.

Thankfully, there may be a solution to this problem in the immediate future: http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

There are some interesting (and at times torturous) discussions of the Fire and MM on the youth forum.

HockeyMN1 · Post by **HockeyMN1** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:37 pm

itsmorefun wrote:
O-townClown wrote:If Shattuck-St. Mary's entered their teams at the MSHSL level you would not be feeling the positive aura.

In attracting players from throughout North American and even beyond, S-SM isn't exactly tearing down the fabric of Minnesota's community-based hockey model.

The Fire program draws the ire of many, even in Wisconsin, because for it to exist it has to impact local programs. Yes, some people are resistant to that.

With 53,000 kids in Minnesota playing hockey... I doubt the 30 kids Fire hockey draws is really impacting local programs....

But they're probably 30 of the top 200 or so kids in the state. That does make a difference.

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:04 pm

HockeyMN1 wrote:No, good for MN hockey for doing this. These fire teams shouldn't exist anyways. They usually aren't the best teams in the state and kids should play with their cities. Anything to deter people from playing with the fire is good.

HockeyMN1 wrote:But they're probably 30 of the top 200 or so kids in the state. That does make a difference.

Now you're contradicting yourself... If they're not that good, what is the problem. And those 30 kids that do choose to play for the Fire are not the best in the state; a hand full of them maybe but not all.

hockeyfan893 · Post by **hockeyfan893** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:06 pm

HockeyMN1 wrote:
itsmorefun wrote:
O-townClown wrote:If Shattuck-St. Mary's entered their teams at the MSHSL level you would not be feeling the positive aura.

In attracting players from throughout North American and even beyond, S-SM isn't exactly tearing down the fabric of Minnesota's community-based hockey model.

The Fire program draws the ire of many, even in Wisconsin, because for it to exist it has to impact local programs. Yes, some people are resistant to that.

With 53,000 kids in Minnesota playing hockey... I doubt the 30 kids Fire hockey draws is really impacting local programs....
But they're probably 30 of the top 200 or so kids in the state. That does make a difference.

Gives more kids in that organization a chance to step up and develop at a higher level.

HockeyMN1 · Post by **HockeyMN1** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:09 pm

PuckU126 wrote:
HockeyMN1 wrote:No, good for MN hockey for doing this. These fire teams shouldn't exist anyways. They usually aren't the best teams in the state and kids should play with their cities. Anything to deter people from playing with the fire is good.

HockeyMN1 wrote:But they're probably 30 of the top 200 or so kids in the state. That does make a difference.
Now you're contradicting yourself... If they're not that good, what is the problem. And those 30 kids that do choose to play for the Fire are not the best in the state; a hand full of them maybe but not all.

The same reason the NHL All-Stars couldn't beat the Soviets. Also a lot of bigger youth programs that compete with the Fire (EP, Edina, Wayzata) also probably have 20 of the top 300 or so players at the A level. That combined with the friendships and history they have playing together can make them a better team than club all star teams.

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:13 pm

HockeyMN1 wrote:
PuckU126 wrote:
HockeyMN1 wrote:No, good for MN hockey for doing this. These fire teams shouldn't exist anyways. They usually aren't the best teams in the state and kids should play with their cities. Anything to deter people from playing with the fire is good.

HockeyMN1 wrote:But they're probably 30 of the top 200 or so kids in the state. That does make a difference.
Now you're contradicting yourself... If they're not that good, what is the problem. And those 30 kids that do choose to play for the Fire are not the best in the state; a hand full of them maybe but not all.
The same reason the NHL All-Stars couldn't beat the Soviets. Also a lot of bigger youth programs that compete with the Fire (EP, Edina, Wayzata) also probably have 20 of the top 300 or so players at the A level. That combined with the friendships and history they have playing together can make them a better team than club all star teams.

itsmorefun · Post by **itsmorefun** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:32 pm

I still haven't heard any compelling reasons why there is a difference in how the Minnesota hockey world views Shattuck vs. youth Tier One.

If a person's philosophy is that "kids should play with their friends" or "Minnesota has the best hockey", or "Tier One steals all the good players", then why is it ok when these kids get to the high school level and play for Shattuck? They are still "leaving their friends", they are still leaving "the best hockey" and Shattuck is still "stealing all the best kids" (by the way... I don't believe any of that is true).

Kids who leave to play for Shattuck (and their parents) don't get the same grief as kids who leave to play Tier One youth. Just makes a person wonder...

HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Tier One Hockey vs Minnesota

Tier One Hockey vs Minnesota

Re: Tier One Hockey vs Minnesota