Hockey injuries

[WB6162]

I see the mods locked the thread about the Benilde's injured player. I was wondering what you folks think of the hits in hockey in general, not specifically Jablonsky's but so many before him that have left players in wheelchairs. I have a cousin crippled for life due to a check from behind while playing for Edina. I also have sons who have played and still play hockey so this subject is very important to me.

Are you folks satisfied with the rules in place? Have you any ideas to improve safety on the ice?

I believe that as long as God makes young men, young men will make mistakes out of passion, anger--it's just a part of growing up. The kids who check players from behind--sometimes it's simply a mistake by either player (the one delivering and the one receiving). Maybe in rare occurences it's malicious but I do not believe it's ever intended to injure.

My son who plays college hockey now took a wicked check from behind when he was a Junior in HS. Kid cross checked him right across the top of the shoulders and sent him into the boards head first. At the last second he lifted his head which probably saved him from a life in a wheelchair.

Kid got a 10 min penality but since there was only 1 minute left in the game that we were clearly winning it didn't mean much. I wrote emails to the AD of the school we played against voicing my concern at this near miss and didn't even get a reply.

So how do we get the message to these kids? How important is it to us to protect kids from these injuries?

Maybe they should suspend all checks or hits of any kind until they decide what is the best course of action? At least it would send a very clear message that they are serious about stopping these injurious hits.

ANY check from behind should be immediate ejection from the game and suspension for 5 games after. Also, subject to video review in case the refs miss it.

That's my opinion on this subject.

[keepyourheadup]

My hockey buddies and I have discussed this for years.
Number one....minor penalties mean nothing, game ejection starting at the lowest level, peewee prior to this year, for hits from behind. If the infraction occurs in the third period the player in question sits at least the next game if not longer.
Number two, players need to be held responsible by their coach and parents, not just the ref! Here is where coach and parent do their jobs by sitting kids for an extended periods of time.
Number three, The current culture in hockey seems to be if it doesn't "look" to bad then just call a minor and let the kids play. This is the trap...if it is even close it needs to be called. Kids can't determine the difference between the two and are not being taught how to.
As the parent of two undersized players that survived on skill and skating I've spent 10 years holding my breathe that they would avoid being railroaded by an opponent who was simply never made to understand the dangers of improper physical play.

[RoseauFan]

It starts with everyone involved in hockey from Administrators, coaches, officials, players and parents.

Kids learn at a young age to play the body. The problem with a lot of these youth coaches is that they are continually screaming at kids to play the body, finish the check, be physical, etc. You shouldn't just go out there to hit people, there should be a purpose.

Coaches need to be leaders and role models for their players and teach them how to respect the game and other players. Players need to be coached not just how to deliver a proper check but also how to take a check. If you are standing three feet away from the boards with your back to open ice you are putting yourself in danger.

The officials need to do a much better job officiating the games. Players are going to try get away with whatever they can. Up here in Roseau we have/see the most brutal refs in the profession. Whether they are from Roseau, Warroad, TRF or EGF they all seem to run things the way they think it should be called instead of following the rules put in place. Just because someone checks someone from behind at center ice doesn't mean it is an automatic cross check. If it is from behind then call it that way.

And like others said, players have to start missing games for this problem to even start getting fixed. Checking from behind should be 5 minute major and game misconduct, automatic. Game report should be filled out and sent to the proper authorities. I'm not sure we could ever get to the point where checks from behind are reviewed on video but that obviously would be ideal. One problem with the rule that if the player is injured it is automatic game misconduct, this weekend a kid got hit from behind, laid on the ice for about 15 seconds like he was dying, then gets right up and is out for the next shift. Some of these kids have been watching too many soccer matches.

Here is the scenario that happened this weekend up in Roseau (it is the situation I just described with the kid laying on the ice). Roseau kid hits player from behind, obvious checking from behind, not even close. Then a kid from the other team after seeing his kid get checked from behind, comes in and blasts the Roseau kid from behind, another obvious check from behind. The ref gives each kid a boarding call. These a clearly violent checks from behind, both kids that got hit were shaken up a bit. The ref decides to give the Roseau kid a check from behind after he sees blood on the ice from the other team. This is the problem we have with officials. These two hits should have been check from behind, 2 and 10 MINIMUM.

But none of this is going to change unless the coaches change their stance and the officials become tougher on penalties. I also think officials need to be subjected to video review if the coach wants to send it in and file a complaint.

[dangle_snipe]

Well here is my take on injury prevention as result of ILLEGAL hits.

Start checking in squirts. Any checking from behind is automatic 5 and game. This would be the rule all the way up through high school. I would also propose that any illegal hits from behind would include suspension for the following game.

This however would not be effective unless we demanded proper calls by officials. No more cross checking or boarding calls. A hit from behind no matter where it happens is a hit from behind.

I would also like an emphasis placed on teaching kids how to protect them selves along the boards. This would include not turning their back at the last second in certain situations. I have seen this a thousand times and it really bugs me. I think one reason why you don't see it as much in the college and pro level is because of the strength players have along the boards (using upper body to protect them selves).

Maybe even keep track throughout the season and issue a suspension if a certain number of checking from behinds occur by a player.

[HShockeywatcher]

I did a google search for the three penalties that are the worst:
"Boarding
Checking (shoving) an opponent so that he is thrown violently against the boards."
"Charging
Taking more than three skating strides prior to checking an opponent."
"Checking from Behind
Checking or hitting an opponent whose back is facing you, often into the boards."

Like it or not, call it good for bad for the game, but these three happen regularly on both ends of the ice and aren't called because they're "part of the game." There are unwritten rules you learn from playing that say how much you can do one of these without it getting called.

Also, for some reason the result of the check seems to determine whether it's called or not. i.e. Check from behind where the check player is on his feet and skates away doesn't get called, but if he falls down, it does.

But none of this is going to change unless the coaches change their stance and the officials become tougher on penalties. I also think officials need to be subjected to video review if the coach wants to send it in and file a complaint.

At the start of last season, the MSHSL announced they were coming down harsher on penalties (which simply meant they were going to actually call them) and the start of the season was a rocky one.

The hockey community didn't seem to like this and it seemed to wear off. Refs [can] get bad reviews from coaches for calling a certain way, many people want to see the violence in the game (it is the reason select players play the game) and there is a large spectrum of how people want to see the game played.

People [in general] only care about penalties not being called when there is a serious injury, but when games go on and on with penalties not being called and no serious injury, no one seems to bat an eye.

[Monsterbuck1]

How about no checking within 5ft of the boards??? Angle and open ice checks only. This would almost eliminate all serious injuries with the exception of some concussions suffered from open ice hits. I realize this would drastically change the game but it's just an idea that could be tweaked a bit. By the way, don't throw the coaches under the bus on this stuff. If you want to blame someone, the player usually is a kid out of control. It's funny how it seems to be the same players (not always) as they move up into higher levels. The goons in peewees yesterday are tomorrows goons in HS.

[HShockeywatcher]

How about no checking within 5ft of the boards??? Angle and open ice checks only. This would almost eliminate all serious injuries with the exception of some concussions suffered from open ice hits. I realize this would drastically change the game but it's just an idea that could be tweaked a bit. By the way, don't throw the coaches under the bus on this stuff. If you want to blame someone, the player usually is a kid out of control. It's funny how it seems to be the same players (not always) as they move up into higher levels. The goons in peewees yesterday are tomorrows goons in HS.

Is it really their fault if they have gotten away with it from an early age? Coaches, parents and refs (the adults in the situation) have let them get away with it ever since the stop signs were taken off.

Why would a kid who loves to hit and knock people down stop doing so when he can and isn't getting called for it and no adults are asking him to stop?

It's a tough issue and the same thing is happening in basketball and football across the state and country. We want to "let the kids play" but then when there is serious injury people start pointing fingers and wanting change.

[slyer]

refs need to make more calls most kids DON'T listen anymore, you see it at about every game

[gopherpuck516]

How about no checking within 5ft of the boards??? Angle and open ice checks only. This would almost eliminate all serious injuries with the exception of some concussions suffered from open ice hits. I realize this would drastically change the game but it's just an idea that could be tweaked a bit. By the way, don't throw the coaches under the bus on this stuff. If you want to blame someone, the player usually is a kid out of control. It's funny how it seems to be the same players (not always) as they move up into higher levels. The goons in peewees yesterday are tomorrows goons in HS.

That's an interesting idea. It would certainly need some tweaking, and would be faced with a lot of criticism, but how much would it really take away from the game compared to what it could add by the way of player safety? add a line on the ice 5' away from the boards and that's the "no checking zone." Personally I like watching the skilled players make nice plays using good skating, stickhandling, and shooting much more than a big hit. Body checking is part of the game, but it's not used today like it was originally intended to be used. The game has evolved, and players are so much bigger and faster than they used to be. Kids see guys like Cal Clutterbuck flying around the rink checking everyone in sight, but what they don't realize is he's doing that in order keep the opposition on their toes and create turnovers, not just to put a guy on the ice.

I'm in agreement with everybody that's posted that checking and being checked need to be taught correctly by coaches early on, reckless and dangerous hits need to be called by refs, and consequences need to be paid by players whether they do it once or repeatedly. Kids might not listen to the coaches or even their parents, but I bet if the consequence cost their team the game they will hear it from their friends and maybe that would be enough of a reason to change. Something like 5 minute major and game misconduct for the 1st offense (per team in each game), then the 2nd offense by the same team per game results in a forfeit. Also, the penalty for each player should increase on each offense, from game misconduct on the first, to two games on the 2nd, to 5 games on the third. If a player can't learn the proper way to hit they are a danger to the other players on the ice and should not be out there until they can control themselves.

[warmskin]

I hate to say it since I do coach but the actions of the players on the ice are the responsibility of the coach. There are certainly teams that play a more physical style and this for the most part is not accidental. Why are youth hockey players on some teams still taught to finish a check even when getting the puck is no longer the objective? Physical contact is certainly part of the game but missing checks at high speeds into the boards and taking a run at somebody for no apparent reason is not part of the game. Coaches need to be part of the solution and bench players that are participating in dangerous play not only to other players but to themselves.

[MNHockeyFan]

Coaches need to be part of the solution and bench players that are participating in dangerous play not only to other players but to themselves.

Don't disagree but it's not going to happen on its own. Earlier in your post you said:

There are certainly teams that play a more physical style and this for the most part is not accidental. Why are youth hockey players on some teams still taught to finish a check even when getting the puck is no longer the objective?

Well it's obviously the coaches who are teaching this, so what's going to make them "be part of the solution and bench players that are participating in dangerous play..."? Nobody is going to waive a magic wand that somehow gets them to change how they coach.

If change is going to occur it MUST start at the top, the MSHSL. And it's going to involve a LOT more than writing a memo and sending it out to all the coaches and referees. It's going to take a new set of standards for all: players, coaches and referees that MUST be adhered to. Penalties must be clearly spelled out and enforced consistently. It can't be viewed as a temporary "crackdown" like a special weekend DWI enforcement - EVERYONE must come to realize that the changes are permanent and that's going to be the way it is from now on.

We can certainly debate what the new set of standards and the penalties should be, but if REAL CHANGE is going to happen the penalties must be severe enough so that all three groups have no choice but to adopt. And again, it must start from the top.

[warmskin]

I agree, but USA Hockey like most sports oversight bodies is slow to react and change any rules. They need input and decision by committees to make any changes. I watch a lot of Pee Wee and Bantam games and about the only way a check from behind is called is if somebody is laid out on the ice and is slow to get up. I think generally referring is pretty good but checking from behind seems to be a sore spot.

[Bandy]

Agree with most everything that's being said in this thread. I hope people at all levels are inspired to clean up the game. You'll never completely remove risk, but you can greatly reduce it, and that should be the goal.

I agree, but USA Hockey like most sports oversight bodies is slow to react and change any rules. They need input and decision by committees to make any changes. I watch a lot of Pee Wee and Bantam games and about the only way a check from behind is called is if somebody is laid out on the ice and is slow to get up. I think generally referring is pretty good but checking from behind seems to be a sore spot.

warmskin--USA Hockey puts out great guidance on rules, standards of play, and standards of officiating. They study the data on REPORTED injuries, and have done a good job putting out the word. I think what's slow to change is the officiating -- the "let 'em play" mentality, or not having the cajones to call the right call.

Also slow to change is the mentality of some players, parents, and coaches. The dads yelling to their sons to "HIT HIM!" The coaches who overemphasize physical play, or that tolerate cheap shots. And some players love to hit.

Agree with MNHockeyFan 100%:

If change is going to occur it MUST start at the top, the MSHSL. And it's going to involve a LOT more than writing a memo and sending it out to all the coaches and referees. It's going to take a new set of standards for all: players, coaches and referees that MUST be adhered to. Penalties must be clearly spelled out and enforced consistently. It can't be viewed as a temporary "crackdown" like a special weekend DWI enforcement - EVERYONE must come to realize that the changes are permanent and that's going to be the way it is from now on.

I don't think rule changes are warranted now, but enforcement of existing rules--for example tightening the enforcement standards for Boarding, and for Roughing (especially for late hits)--would help.

Most coaches & players want to win games. If penalties are called to a strict standard, they'll figure it out quickly, or they'll be at a huge disadvantage.

[inthestands]

Rule changes alone aren't going to solve these issues.

This is more of an education issue. Not saying that a change of enforcement won't help, but is not the sole solution.

It has to start in mites, and be taught right on through college consistently. We can't hang this injury problem on youth hockey associations or the officials.

It's something all levels need to come together on, and act accordingly or the chance for improvement is very slim..

[SnowedIn]

Coaches need to be part of the solution and bench players that are participating in dangerous play not only to other players but to themselves.

Don't disagree but it's not going to happen on its own. Earlier in your post you said:

There are certainly teams that play a more physical style and this for the most part is not accidental. Why are youth hockey players on some teams still taught to finish a check even when getting the puck is no longer the objective?

Well it's obviously the coaches who are teaching this, so what's going to make them "be part of the solution and bench players that are participating in dangerous play..."? Nobody is going to waive a magic wand that somehow gets them to change how they coach.

If change is going to occur it MUST start at the top, the MSHSL. And it's going to involve a LOT more than writing a memo and sending it out to all the coaches and referees. It's going to take a new set of standards for all: players, coaches and referees that MUST be adhered to. Penalties must be clearly spelled out and enforced consistently. It can't be viewed as a temporary "crackdown" like a special weekend DWI enforcement - EVERYONE must come to realize that the changes are permanent and that's going to be the way it is from now on.

We can certainly debate what the new set of standards and the penalties should be, but if REAL CHANGE is going to happen the penalties must be severe enough so that all three groups have no choice but to adopt. And again, it must start from the top.

Agree 100%.
Education is nice and important, but if you don't force the hand of the coaches and refs to end the moronic hits it won't happen consistently and in fact, probably not make much of a difference. Rules make a difference. Just look at how interference has all but dissappeared from the game since the changes in the early/mid 2000s. Rule changes worked nicely.

[observer]

Dads, beyond the dopes yelling "hit him", are a factor. Dads, and some moms, tell their 3rd line A players, and B players, that they need to be more physical in order to move up a line, defensive pairing, or team. Many uneducated think hitting is a way to get some attention if their son isn't in the top 1/3rd skill wise. Old school coaches are an issue too. If the coach is yelling "body," or "hit him," they don't have a clue. Several kids hit because it's easier than skating hard and chasing an opponent. Work on fitness, on ice and off, so all the players can keep up with the pace of the game.

Two facts. Playing is more fun than sitting in the box and you'll never beat a stronger team short handed.

[SportsNorthFan]

What I am seeing is most hockey coaches pick the fastest kids no matter what the size of the kid. We had big, fast, and strong players that were cut from the team. Can the kid take a hit from behind or is he on the smaller size? I believe it boils down to the coach for picking his team. Now all the smaller, faster kids get beat up on the ice and take too many penalties and the chances of being hurt much greater. This is just my opinion in what I have seen. I know in hockey anybody can be hurt but just saying...

[D6Rocks]

It's all about enforcement.
All the rules are there.
All the penalties are there.

If the refs would call these hits, the players getting the penalties wouldn't be playing because the coaches don't want to short handed 5 min. every other game. The kids would learn to stop or they won't play.

You learn from pleasure and pain.
Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement.

There are only two legal hits in Hockey.
Hip and Shoulder. Yet you rarely see either of these in a game.
It's all hands and arms up near the head, or in the chest.
Then there are the Hits in the back.
In front of the net, along the boards. They all are illegal they should all be called.

You can play the body and give a bone crushing hit legally.

Other than enforcement, the second largest culprit, is the coach saying "Finish your Check". That is just a another phrase for "I don't care if he doesn't have the puck, hit him anyway"

Yes Hockey is a big boy game. But the rules are there for a reason.

[hockeyfan893]

I'd like to throw out this idea purely for the sake of argument.

What if you started handing out monetary fines at the youth and high school level for dangerous hits? Like D6 said, all the rules and penatlies are there. But what if that's not enough? What if, in order to further disincentivize such contact, you fined players (their parents) or associations?

Crazy idea, but I just want to get some feedback.

[observer]

D6Rocks is correct in that coaches and refs are the primarily responsible parties. And, I agree, the rules are there.

I was just stating that players who hear their dads and coaches voice in their head about playing a more physical style are a problem. The dad will hurt his player, his players team, and, potentially, an opponent.

[StreetStix]

There are only two legal hits in Hockey.
Hip and Shoulder. Yet you rarely see either of these in a game.
It's all hands and arms up near the head, or in the chest.
Then there are the Hits in the back.
In front of the net, along the boards. They all are illegal they should all be called.

This. I love the hitting aspect of hockey but its the shoulder-to-the-chest open ice hit that I like, not all this shoving of heads into the boards. Watch a game and the vast majority of hits are kids using hands and arms, just like D6 said.

I'm not positive on how to change all this, but the idea of better enforcement by refs seems like a good start. Checking from behind is so infrequently called that its stunning at times. Even at the college level where it is called better than in HS. I remember watching the Gopher-UMD game a few months ago and, after seeing two guys sent off for checking from behind, only a few minutes later it happens again (blatantly in the middle of the ice too) and nothing happened. Maybe refs aren't as informed on what they're supposed to be looking for? Not sure...feel really bad for the kids hurt from this though. Too many injuries in HS sports in the last year, its been overwhelming.

[hockey4ever]

I'm not sure there is any "one" thing that can be done to eliminate hitting from behind but in my opinion there are a number of things, when done together, that could reduce and hopefully eliminate premeditated and unnecessary hits from behind.

1 referees consistently enforcing the rules.

2 coaches and parents educating their players and reinforcing with them the danger involved with hitting from behind, and setting the expectations that it will not be tolerated on their team, plus the consequences involved for doing it.

3 a graduated penalty/suspension system that is more severe than a 2 and 10 for first offense; and for repeat offenders even steeper consequences, up to and including losing the priviledge to play hockey in Minnesota after a pre-determined number of incidents.

Until there are severe consequences identified and enforced, the behavior will continue.

[seek & destroy]

D6Rocks is correct in that coaches and refs are the primarily responsible parties. And, I agree, the rules are there.

I was just stating that players who hear their dads and coaches voice in their head about playing a more physical style are a problem. The dad will hurt his player, his players team, and, potentially, an opponent.

This is H.S. hockey. You got to put at least some of the responsibility on a player. They know what they can and can't do and they know what is dangerous. To say it is 'primarily' the coaches and refs is making it seem that kids are idiots who can't think for themselves (and yes I know there are a few of those). Also, there is a big difference between a hit to the back in front of the net and a push. I have seen very few 'hits' in front of the net go uncalled but I've seen a lot of pushing or shoving that goes on.

There are penalties along the boards that are not called that could be called but the players also are well aware when they deliver a hit that is high, hard and therefore dangerous. Refs need to do a better job of getting these kids off the ice but I also agree with the post that said that there are many times when players turn the wrong way along the boards at the last second that causes some of the hits to become even more dangerous. It is not an easy job to make those calls and more often than not you hear fans screaming at the ref for the call that was made while the opposing fans are calling for more of a punishment.

Hockey is a dangerous sport and accidents can happen and we should all hope that those are few and far between. The rules that are there should be enforced but let's make sure we are being clear about the difference between a "hit" versus a "push" or "bump" and that we are not overreacting and wanting every hit on the boards called a dirty hit.

[EHSHack]

Surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but during the United States game against the Czech's in the WJC former Greyhound Derek Forbort took a nasty hit from behind in the 1st period and did not return for that game or against Canada I believe.

[warmskin]

I would suggest listening to an interview done with Lou Nanne today on KFAN.
It sheds some light on this discussion. It is around the 50 minute mark of the audio. As Lou Nanne says in the interview 'it is a privilege to check'.
http://www.feedage.com/feeds/744661/dan ... an-am-1130