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The other issue that parents should be very careful on when deciding to sign their son up or not is that what happens when their son leaves the association because they are "Better then everyone else" and then try to make the squirt A team the next year. Does your child get the same look as some kid that stayed and played mites in the association.

I'm confused I thought the best payers were picked for the top teams? And you wonder why people are considering other options. It may be about the money but the product is good and that's why people will pay it.

It may not be the top 90 kids but they will have a collective skill level well above D mites and the difference top to bottom will be far less than the 45 kids on three D mite teams in a big club. Playing with and against kids closer to thier skill level, " Do I here an echo"

skillbuilder wrote: I thought the best payers were picked for the top teams?

That is most true with summer aaa teams.

my neighbor is looking into this program. He is not old enough to play C squirts and is ahead of the mites in his association. The kid is a huge hockey fan. He is at my door every ten minutes. The kid loves to play hockey. If he wants to skate a hundred hours, he should. I talked to his dad about this program and he personally doesn't care. He isnt pushing his kid to do anything. In defense of parents i don't think they are all trying to get their kid a D1 scholarship or a NHL contract, if he does make it that far i hope he will remember whos door he was knocking on.

I'm with SKILLBUILDER on this one...but I just wonder if this is the demise of Minnesota hockey in the cities...consider the possibility that this thing takes off and MM is able to actually get the top kids from realistic communiting distances, what does it do to the local programs? Also, in the big picture, when this group of players is 12 in a few years, how many of them are still in it and most importantly WHO do they play? Do they have kids that basically pay 12K a year to go to hockey school in third grade and are simply a winter AAA program. Do the local associations tell them to pound sand for games? Do they start taking their mites and squirts to chicago and toronto and wherever for tournaments with there best 15 skaters being a seperate elite team from the program? This will spiral into a huge debate for years, but still it's a free market and MOST parents will simply try this program in hopes of a better product and NOT to pencil in their kids signing day 10 years down the road...maybe MM can get Lucia to come in on the first day and take pics with the mites "just incase" one of the 90 of them can make it in 10 years...WE ALL know kids that were just awesome mites with a million points in 30 games and we ALL KNOW kids that when they were 12 a few years later were has beens and when they were 14 were selling there gear in a yeard sale, and when they 16 couldn't make the JV...it's just the reality..

The problem for MM and others will always be santioning as MN Hockey has still not embraced AAA or any other non club hockey. USA Hockey will not sanction if MN won't. It means those teams will only be able to play internally. No local games vs. club teams, no AAA games in Chicago or anywhere else as 99% of potential opponents are USA Hockey sanctioned and can get into troubel for playing non sanctioed teams. There isn't free enterprise until there are enough teams in place somewhere that can play one another. Mites presented itself as an opportunity for MM but squirts and above will require a unique plan and will need to target specific underserved audiences if it is to have staying power. This and other future outside winter venues will help MN Hockey evolve as they see what hockey parents are responding to, and look to provide it themselves rather than giving up those kids to outside forces. The no-check Bantam XL league MN hockey offers shows they can look outside the box in serving certain kids. MN hockey has not had to do much marketing over the years with no daily competion challenging them each day. They may need to eventually create a brand and promote it going forward. as for profit businesses enter the winter hockey market place with a product and a message.

Yes, at the above mite level it is more difficult. However, I just heard that the Wisconsin Fire tryouts were completed a couple of weeks ago. Of interest is that many of Bernie's 96 team 7-9 kids..some/most who played in Association last year (hearing different reports) will be playing with the Fire. Hmmmm. Not saying if this is right or wrong. The Fire provide certain things that the Association can't so if parents want to spend the money, they have options now. Tomorrow they may have more options.

Bernie (Mr. Skillbuilder himself) and the folks at MM have identified an area that probably needs help. The "Hockey Dads" that typically coach mites don't usually have the knowledge or patience to teach the little guys the basics. And let's not forget that the basics become the bottom level of the pyramid and support the weight of every other level. I'm not saying MM has this all figured out... but think of it this way: If you're a "hockey dad" and your kid is mite aged, you know darn well that you are going to get approached to coach your son's team. You don't really want to, because you know that once you step onto that ice, you have not only committed to that season, but more than likely 4-6 more years after that. If I'm that dad, this is a real attractive option. At a reasonable price. Couple that with the dads that don't know a slapshot from a toe pull, but certainly know what a check is, and the local ass'ns are in trouble.

The other side of this that bothers me a little bit is the long term effects on small to medium sized associations in or near the metro area. Let's say these communities already struggle to field two teams at the upper levels (pee wees and bantams). Sure, at the mite level, the numbers are good. Of course they fall off over time with attrition. Obviously, if a kid has a passion for hockey, and his parents support that passion, this kid won't be one that falls off (no matter where he plays). So now, the percentage of kids that those local associations lose goes up.

I agree that this makes the local associations have to step up their game if they don't want to lose kids... unfortunately, no matter how well run your local organization is... it won't ever be good enough for the parents that know an option like this exists.

Not to take a page out of Chicken Little's book or anything, but programs like this are going to mean the end of local hockey in MN (starting in mites and eventually working it's way into high school). I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing yet...

Association hockey does lack certain things but what it does do well is make the bottom of the pyramid as large as possible. By broadening the base of hockey to include more players you may find a diamond in the rough every now and then and you definitely promote the game to more kids in your local area.

I do think that assn's need to do more to work with the highest level players but I also think there are two sides to the coin. Is there politics in association hockey (tryouts and otherwise)? Of course there is but do you really think that there won't be politics in any other form of hockey? What is Bernie going to do if he has more applicants then spots available? Is his selection process going to be based on first come, first serve or will he start some form of a tryout for mites? What is the criteria if he does tryouts? Is it more likely that kids that sign up for other programs of MM's may get preferential treatment? You see, it isn't as if politics is over by leaving your association.

As the program grows into higher levels beyond mites (and we all know that part of MM ambition is to grow the program) won't it become necessary to 'thin the herd' a little? Who will they get rid of and will it be based on a perfectly fair system? What is the effect on the average squirt or peewee player who is 'cut' not just from a team but from the whole program and sent back to their association?

This isn't as simple as offering something different to a select few...this could be the beginning of something that could change hockey in Minnesota. Time will tell if it's for the better or not but hopefully it won't just be a money making decision and a lot of thought will be put in before they expand beyond mite level.

I would personally prefer an affordable and close to home hockey venue like club hockey provides rather than driving from the east metro to the west metro so my kid to play the right level of hockey so MN Hockey has an edge, if they look to implement some new ideas that can serve more sub groups including elite players and also bubble kids of all levels as well. I believe it will require them to enforce a little more control on what clubs can do on a couple of issues including allowed level of play but it can get done. It requires an open mind and a willingness to fight some of the old guard but it can happen.
P.S. I do run an off season AAA hockey venue but it is not MM... Here's a nickel for your thoughts though.

This thread seems to have a premise that all association hockey is inept and dysfunctional. That is in fact incorrect there are many, many association programs which extol very positive attributes into the kids of Minnesota who elect to play ice hockey. The association community based system has developed some very good ice hockey players throughout the many years of existence. You can talk to young folks even today, recently graduated in fact who do happen to have very fond memories of growing up and playing with neighborhood friends and classmates. There have even been quotes made by some very good hockey players who rate the experience of growing up playing with buddies up through high school as the most memorable experience in there ice hockey career (Neal Broton, Herb Brooks, Gino Guyer). Association community based systems are integral part to the development of youth as many of you full well know that the associations will no doubt be turning out more doctors, lawyers, teachers, parents for the next generation to come than they will hockey players. Change will come and it is occurring now with Minnesota Made. Perhaps perspective has changed for what most parents consider quality programs. My kids have played not for quite some time in association based programs. I believe in them for all the strength and weakness, the pros and con's, the small percentage of nut cases are well reflective of any endeavor whether it is work, school, sport or religion. It is imperfect but it does have a foundation for correcting wrongs and generally does a great job of churning out some great kids. Perhaps MM can do this very same thing in the future but right now I am a bit skeptical of it true merits.

Just picked up the brochure about the choice mite league at MM

here are some of the highlights:

Cost is $895 for 100 hours of indoor ice

Skillbased program focused on skating, edge work and stickhandling

Talented players known by coaches will not have to go through evaluation process...Others can tryout and will get deposit back if not selected

Teams get 54 shared practices and 16 games played "squirt style" with 15 minute stop time periods, referees, line changes and keeping score

Program is for upper end and potentially elite athletes

Goal is to prepare each player to make their squirt "A" team when they return to their association

nickel slots wrote:My gut tells me that MN Made is trying galliantly to "buck the system" as it relates to MN Hockey. In other words, somebody is trying to start up a year around AAA program right under the nose of MN Hockey. Starting out with 6 teams of mites, evolving into 5 squirt teams, trimming down to 4 pee wee teams, 3 bantam teams, then ultimately having only 2 16U teams that will eventually morph into one 18U midget hockey team that can compete with the Shattucks of the world takes time. Mites seems like the most logical place to start for somebody willing to put in the time and effort to develop such a program.

I don't know if it's right or wrong, it's too early to tell... but that's what this appears to be at face value.

I give MN Made credit for having the audacity to try it.

You are not far off on the AAA thought.

Minnesota hockey is unique. Call me a traditionalist, but I would like to see it stay that way.

Ask parents that have kids on elite AAA teams in California, Pheonix, etc. what they pay annually for their kid(s) to play hockey. It's around 15 to 20K per season. That doesn't include parent travel expenses. Bernie's deal will end up heading in that direction.

For the Mite parents, hockey like all other sports is a marathon, not a sprint. Genetics will play a big part on whether or not a kid makes it.

elliott70 wrote:Give me 20 seven year olds from just about any northern MN community over the Christmas break at $5 per kid. $5 will be enough to buy hot chocolate and give the outdoor rink attnedant(s) something.

You will get as many D1 kids from the 20 as you get from the 120 kids.
Parents will be happier and the 20 kids will turn out better (as communtiy members).

Its not the money, its the kids and the guy teaching them about hockey (insert whatever sport you want) and life.

Now if they are second year pee-wees and you want to spend a little and put together same skilled kids for part of the year, you have a different story.

A $1000 for 100 hours of ice for 7 & 8 year-olds???
Better idea - skates, stick, helmet and a puck or tennis ball and out the door you go. Come in when you are hungry or cold.

Amen

northwoods oldtimer wrote:The Canadians call the 10-13 year age group the golden years for development and they have a lot of good development programs up there that work,well and also allow for kids to play and develop in other sports as well (Calgary model). If you clowns think that pushing 7 and 8 year olds into some type of "elite" status mindset you need your heads examined. Why make a kid at age 7 or 8 feel like they missed the cut for this elite type BS? If Herbie Brooks were around he would puke. He talked about growing the pyramid but there are a lot of numbskulls in this state that let those words fall flat. This is plain stupid for 7 and 8 year olds. It is all about the dollar plain and simple, the rest is pure hogwash.

Agree

How did Neal Broten, Aaron Broten and Butsy Erickson make it to the NHL? Must have been a super Mite program

How did Roseau (population 2,000 something) win a AA state championship in high school this past season. I bet they have a super Mite program

FYI, Roseau Rams probably have 5+ D-1 types coming back this year. They must have a super Mite program

Cal Marvin open the doors to the rink in Warroad and said "go play".

Around the boards wrote:Goal is to prepare each player to make their squirt "A" team when they return to their association

Because making a squirt A team should be the pinnacle of one's hockey career. PT Barnum was born a 100 years too late.
Unbelievable.

breakout wrote:

northwoods oldtimer wrote:The Canadians call the 10-13 year age group the golden years for development and they have a lot of good development programs up there that work,well and also allow for kids to play and develop in other sports as well (Calgary model). If you clowns think that pushing 7 and 8 year olds into some type of "elite" status mindset you need your heads examined. Why make a kid at age 7 or 8 feel like they missed the cut for this elite type BS? If Herbie Brooks were around he would puke. He talked about growing the pyramid but there are a lot of numbskulls in this state that let those words fall flat. This is plain stupid for 7 and 8 year olds. It is all about the dollar plain and simple, the rest is pure hogwash.

Agree

How did Neal Broten, Aaron Broten and Butsy Erickson make it to the NHL? Must have been a super Mite program

How did Roseau (population 2,000 something) win a AA state championship in high school this past season. I bet they have a super Mite program

FYI, Roseau Rams probably have 5+ D-1 types coming back this year. They must have a super Mite program

Cal Marvin open the doors to the rink in Warroad and said "go play".

I would love to have an arena where the kids can go skate anytime no charge. The cities don't have that option. Most cities have even given up on the outdoor ice and the lack of it. The mites in our town skate 1 hour on Saturday and 1 hour on Sunday they are supposed to skate outside but we have only had a few weeks of good outdoor ice. So that leads up to the Showcase, AAA, summer skating and now the Minnesota MAde Mites program. Ask Lakeville if the mites get enough ice I bet those parents wouldn't mind that schedule. The way I look at it Minnesota Made is making Minnesota Hockey's future even brighter.

Pucknutz69 wrote:

breakout wrote:

northwoods oldtimer wrote:The Canadians call the 10-13 year age group the golden years for development and they have a lot of good development programs up there that work,well and also allow for kids to play and develop in other sports as well (Calgary model). If you clowns think that pushing 7 and 8 year olds into some type of "elite" status mindset you need your heads examined. Why make a kid at age 7 or 8 feel like they missed the cut for this elite type BS? If Herbie Brooks were around he would puke. He talked about growing the pyramid but there are a lot of numbskulls in this state that let those words fall flat. This is plain stupid for 7 and 8 year olds. It is all about the dollar plain and simple, the rest is pure hogwash.

Agree

How did Neal Broten, Aaron Broten and Butsy Erickson make it to the NHL? Must have been a super Mite program

How did Roseau (population 2,000 something) win a AA state championship in high school this past season. I bet they have a super Mite program

FYI, Roseau Rams probably have 5+ D-1 types coming back this year. They must have a super Mite program

Cal Marvin open the doors to the rink in Warroad and said "go play".

I would love to have an arena where the kids can go skate anytime no charge. The cities don't have that option. Most cities have even given up on the outdoor ice and the lack of it. The mites in our town skate 1 hour on Saturday and 1 hour on Sunday they are supposed to skate outside but we have only had a few weeks of good outdoor ice. So that leads up to the Showcase, AAA, summer skating and now the Minnesota MAde Mites program. Ask Lakeville if the mites get enough ice I bet those parents wouldn't mind that schedule. The way I look at it Minnesota Made is making Minnesota Hockey's future even brighter.

Ice may not be as plentiful as it once was. However, there are still plenty of opportunities to skate outdoors. My kids were outside playing 20+ times last winter.

Many of the rinks are not used because kids are playing video games instead of getting out and playing UN-STRUCTURED hockey.

Roseville Oval is less than a half hour from Lakeville depending on how you drive.

John Rose Oval is GREAT for a kids development, there should be half a dozen of these around the metro by now. I took all of my kids there last winter. Pee Wee, 12U and Mite we played there 5 days straight at Christmas vacation the kids got more out of that than perhaps 2-3 weeks of practice. Herbie Brooks had it right you do not need a mega million indoor rink, you need outdoor ice with artificial ice and than maybe an open air shell over the top and let the kids play. Metro folks (and outstate for that matter) would be much the wiser putting this type of structure adjacent to the local public rink. Steady traffic at the outdoor venue before and after practice. Mites need ice time, ice time and ice time. Not evaluations and the ridiculous banner of "elite". Some of you folks have flat out lost the perspective. Collectively if we decide to place that emphasis on a Mite level than we have collectively lost perspective on the game. If folks want to shell out big dollars for their elite mite I guess the free market will take your money. See it all start at the dinner table with Super Mite Dad blowing smoke about how great the kid is and too bad he has to play with so and so to feed this type of market. Somehow I do believe when Neal Broton sat at the dinner table there was not much chatter about how special Neal was compared to all the other kids he was stuck with playing up in Roseau. I grew up in that generation and the parents just were not that involved. I say we collectively got the better bargain on experiencing a game as a kid. I kind of fell bad for thes little guys, they have some high expectations to meet that are unrealistic for a 7 year old.

Ave. cost for an hour of ice is $9.00. That seems very reasonable. Besides, shinny hockey should be played in doors. It's too cold outside. They skated outside in the stone age....hey wait....I'm from the stone age. Yabba dabba duuuuuu.

FREDFLINTSTONE wrote:Ave. cost for an hour of ice is $9.00. That seems very reasonable. Besides, shinny hockey should be played in doors. It's too cold outside. They skated outside in the stone age....hey wait....I'm from the stone age. Yabba dabba duuuuuu.

Sorry, but there's nothing like a game of shinny hockey outside. Yes, outside in the cold where the game began.
There is still plenty of that going on up North.

I guess the outside ice is ok but it's tough to skate on water with all this global warming going on.

I'm with elliot and oldtimer northwoods and I can tell you exactly what happens from the soccer club perspective - which is the model this is imitating
1) you never get all the top talent in one spot
2) the customers (parents) you are chasing are finicky and eventually
there is club hopping in search of the hockey holy grail or when
little Marion's early success is no longer repeated when others catch
up with him and he is cut from a team there are hard, bitter
feelings and the parents go to the next great club offering.
3) once you reach the higher age levels with elite teams the young
player development goes away and then the recruitment of
older players.....er.....sorry I mean parents takes top priority
4) In order to attract the best players to the club you must focus on
winning. To hell with development. We need to attract better
players so we must win and be the best. Players become
commodities to achieve the success the club is looking for.
5) burn-out rate is higher
6) the love of the sport is lost because the players are chasing the
carrot for all the wrong reasons
7) do the math folks, it doesn't improve the statistical chance of the
kid gaining a D1 scholarship and with what you pay over 10 years
doing this (remember this is only a $1000 for mites) the money
saved would halt any need for a D1 scholarship
Sport becomes ME, ME, ME rather than Team, Team Team

The cream always rises to the top - this does nothing to enhance that fact. I have seen both systems in action and I believe the current hockey model does a better overall job in developing kids

Don't drink the Kool-Aid being served up here ':mrgreen:'
Herbie is spinning in his grave

I like tomASS's perspective. Only want to add one thing...
What programs do these 120 MITES come from? What does this do to Edina or Eden Prairie or wherever the kids come from? This is going to be a widespread domino effect on multiple levels, not just the development of these players.

Bottom line though, this is a money grab by MM. THey will sign up 120 kids at a K a kid...so that's 120K...they own the ice..so somebody is getting a new boat for the summer!!

I guarantee we see a AAA ELITE MITE team (LOL) rostered out of this group that travels during the winter and plays in events outside of Minnesota..bet on it. AHHHHH, back to the AAA thread with this one!!

jancze5 wrote:What programs do these 120 MITES come from? What does this do to Edina or Eden Prairie or wherever the kids come from? This is going to be a widespread domino effect on multiple levels, not just the development of these players.

Bottom line though, this is a money grab by MM. THey will sign up 120 kids at a K a kid...so that's 120K...they own the ice..so somebody is getting a new boat for the summer!!

Maybe Elliot can answer this question. If these Mites are coming from Edina, Bloomington, EP, Tonka, and are USA reigistered in those Associations, won't they have to get waivers to go play at MN? If so, do those Associations have to take these kids back, when MN goes from 6 Mite teams to 2 Squirt teams and cuts most of these kids?

mnhockey36299 wrote:

jancze5 wrote:What programs do these 120 MITES come from? What does this do to Edina or Eden Prairie or wherever the kids come from? This is going to be a widespread domino effect on multiple levels, not just the development of these players.

Bottom line though, this is a money grab by MM. THey will sign up 120 kids at a K a kid...so that's 120K...they own the ice..so somebody is getting a new boat for the summer!!

Maybe Elliot can answer this question. If these Mites are coming from Edina, Bloomington, EP, Tonka, and are USA reigistered in those Associations, won't they have to get waivers to go play at MN? If so, do those Associations have to take these kids back, when MN goes from 6 Mite teams to 2 Squirt teams and cuts most of these kids?

If the MM mite program is operating as a AAA team and therefor outside of MN & USA Hockey the players would not need a waiver.