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HShockeywatcher wrote:The difficulty I have saying that East has the top defense, or is even a top team, is who they play. It is not an easy schedule, but it is certainly not a difficult one. Coming in at last in that article was Northern Lakes. You look at their schedule and they have a good shot at going undefeated. They have allowed 7 goals this season, with 4 coming in one game. If you don't look at who a team plays, you are missing a huge part of the story. East plays a pretty soft schedule; how they do against Moorhead, Blaine and the Gold Cup opponents will say a lot.

East has only allowed 3 goals all season and they play one of the toughest schedules in the state with being in an independent conference

DE as the top d in the state hounds down. they've already played a few pretty tough teams and have been able to be quite fierce. there definatly a threat to any team they play. With Forbort, Mclean, Arbour, Williams,Holm and some amado?? They all seem to take pretty good control. the DE d is stacked everywhere. JV,V

Centennial and Hillmurray both have arguably the other best defense in the state i would have to say.

kyle stutz and chuck aus are putting together a great D pairing and putting the puck on net well and occasionally a couple hits from Centennials number 22

I heard Forbort is leaving in January. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not?

Lucia4President wrote:I heard Forbort is leaving in January. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not?

I have NOT heard that, and pretty sure I would have if it was true. Besides, he wouldnt leave in January anyway. Thats the middle of the season.

Forbort is playing for the 17 and under world tournament in Vancouver over Christmas and will return to the Greyhounds after the tourney. Good luck Derek and team USA

Penalty Shot wrote:Forbort is playing for the 17 and under world tournament in Vancouver over Christmas and will return to the Greyhounds after the tourney. Good luck Derek and team USA

He also played with them in a tournament in Slovakia this summer.

Lee, danglemyman07, HoundHockeyForever, EHSHack, and anyone else who cares to listen, I won't argue that "East almost always has a tough schedule, usually in the top ten toughest in the state" as HoundHockeyForever points out, what I will argue, though, is that their schedule THIS year is not tough.

-Tonka, Cloquet, Rapids, Wayzata, Anoka, and Brainerd are all good programs that are all usually a lot better than they are now.
-Moorhead is also good, but down this year.
-Centennial is probably good, but aside from East, unchallenged thus far this year.
-They will play two AA teams in the Schwan's Cup, probably decent teams.
-Blaine and WBL are the only two games remaining on their (aside from Schwan's) they won't walk through. Both are away, which will be a good test.

I'm not saying they're a bad team. I saw them play, they are probably a top 10 team. But with the quality of their opponents this year it is hard to determine much more than that until state. Even if they lost both their games to Blaine and WBL, they could get to the 2nd round of state with only 2 losses and be unchallenged until then.

HShockeywatcher wrote:Lee, danglemyman07, HoundHockeyForever, EHSHack, and anyone else who cares to listen, I won't argue that "East almost always has a tough schedule, usually in the top ten toughest in the state" as HoundHockeyForever points out, what I will argue, though, is that their schedule THIS year is not tough.

-Tonka, Cloquet, Rapids, Wayzata, Anoka, and Brainerd are all good programs that are all usually a lot better than they are now.
-Moorhead is also good, but down this year.
-Centennial is probably good, but aside from East, unchallenged thus far this year.
-They will play two AA teams in the Schwan's Cup, probably decent teams.
-Blaine and WBL are the only two games remaining on their (aside from Schwan's) they won't walk through. Both are away, which will be a good test.

I'm not saying they're a bad team. I saw them play, they are probably a top 10 team. But with the quality of their opponents this year it is hard to determine much more than that until state. Even if they lost both their games to Blaine and WBL, they could get to the 2nd round of state with only 2 losses and be unchallenged until then.

This year if your going to go by who is down, you cant judge any schedule. The whole state of Minnesota has dropped a little since last year. However, growing up with this talent in camps and such, this is one of East's most solid teams. Next year, we could even take another step up, and the year after that. But as for this year, the East D core is as solid as ever.

This thread is entitled "best defense in the state," not "MN's solid defenses." I agree East has a solid defense, just not that they have proven yet to be the best.

HShockeywatcher wrote:This thread is entitled "best defense in the state," not "MN's solid defenses." I agree East has a solid defense, just not that they have proven yet to be the best.

Who in your opinion has a better defense?

Penalty Shot wrote:Forbort is playing for the 17 and under world tournament in Vancouver over Christmas and will return to the Greyhounds after the tourney. Good luck Derek and team USA

Alright. I heard that he was leaving, and I wasn't sure if he was coming back or what. Thanks for clearing that up.

I just went back and reread all of my posts. There wasn't a single time I said East doesn't have the best defense, I have only said they have yet to prove to be the best team in state. Two years ago Holy Angels proved they were the best team in the state by killing everyone they played (except for Stillwater who they tied) and getting upset by a goalie who had an amazing game. My only point in all of this is that with East's schedule they don't have that luxury. They went 0-3 at Schwan's last year so were dropped down to Silver and all the teams they play who are usually good are down this year. They have no room for error with their schedule. I personally believe they will get to state 28-0 or 27-1 but also believe that doing that will not have proven much as far as their defense is concerned.

hshckfan08, my first point would be that I think it's silly to call one defense the best 9 games into a season. So, I would not answer that even if I had seen many more games than I had. I have seen three games thus far this year; STA @ DM, Tonka @ DE and HM @ Burnsville. Of those 6 teams I would say that DM and Tonka's defenses were the best. DM faced nearly 50 shots and Willie Paul stood on his head in that game. The puck was in the Tonka zone at least 2/3 of the game and they still only allowed 2 goals, tied for fewest of anyone East has played this season. Burnsville got killed and the puck was never in the HM zone.

Read midwesthockeyscout's post in the goalie thread. It is very similar to what I'm saying about defense. He basically says that the defense doesn't face enough shots and with the amount of shots and good scoring chances they do face a good goalie should do what he is doing. As I commented above, in the Tonka/East game the puck was rarely in DE's end because their offense is so good. They do have a fast offense. If you are in the other team's end the whole game and rarely see any shots, that doesn't prove anything about your defense.

Lee, why don't you post that SOS link on your site somewhere?

Also, making that comment about taking Central off their schedule to make it better is something anyone can do. If anyone takes off the bad teams from their schedule, their schedule will be a lot different. Also, if you're going to take their worst opponent off and move them up the list, then it's only fair to also take off the bad opponents from the teams above them.

I find your post interesting. Although you state that you havnt said DE defense arnt the best you then proceed to say that of the 6 teams you have seen including DE, that DM and Mtk's defense are the best you have seen. I did some checking and cant believe that you think DM has better D then DE. DM gave up 5 to Breck, 6 to Hibbing, and 7 to Totino Grace. I guess we will see when DE plays Breck at the Scwanns (even without Forbort). I have seen DE play Wayzata Mtk, and on TV against Centennial. East looks strong in all aspects of the game. Cooper is playing well, the D are very solid and they have a lot of talent up front. When they played Mtk I checked the box score and Mtk had 18 minutes more of power play then DE (DE had 1:00) the shots were 22-21 for Mtk. Watching the game I thought DE defense did a good job of breaking the puck out of the zone and clearing it on penalty kills. I also saw that they had 9 penalty kills at Moorhead and didnt give up a goal either. The other thing I noticed about them is that against Wayzata and Centennial they helped establish a very up tempo flow by moving the puck out of their zone with good quick passing up the ice against good teams.
There D look awfully good to me. Not to take anything away from Mtk or DM but I would want to see them do a lot more or see DE fall off a lot before I would say that DE isnt as good if not better than either of those groups.
The other groups I like are Bloomington Jefferson, and Centennials.
HShockey watcher why dont you want to give DE more credit they sure look very good to a lot of people out there.

ok hockeywatcher... first of all why are you talking about proving yourself as the best team in the best defenses thread. Second, i hope you are joking if you say DM has a better defense than DE. Dont get me wrong, i am a Marshall hockey fan, and that doesnt really equate well toward liking East hockey, but to say that Marshall's defense is in the same league as East's is obsurd. Marshall has 5 average JV defenders other than Stauber (who is very underrated). east returns i believe all of their dmen with varsity experience, led by the best defender in the state in my opinion.
And third im sick of people saying, oh this team hasnt played enough games or compiled enough stats in order to evaluate them. Just step back and look at the talent of the players. And if you really, really want to go purely on stats i think East wins anyway. Perfect on the penalty kill, and they have a ridiculous goals against average. But just from watching the games you listed, it should be easy to see that East D is in a different league (except HM). Step back from a stat sheet for one second and watch the game. You should be able to recognize talent from watching players play, not from looking at shot totals and goal talies.

Off Sides wrote: HShockey watcher why dont you want to give DE more credit they sure look very good to a lot of people out there.

Simple. East isn't a private school, and they're certainly not STA. If STA played defense like East has been playing, he'd be calling them the best defensive team since the CCCP circa 1970's.

Lee

I'm digressing from the topic a bit, but I'd contest the point that Minnetonka and Wayzata are way down this year and that Moorhead is down as well. Wayzata is thought of a bit more highly than in recent years, and Minnetonka, while down, is still considered a top 15 (even top 10 by some) team in the state. Moorhead is looking the best it has in several years and are heavily favored to win 8AA following their convincing win over Roseau a few weeks back.

hshckfan08, I never said that Marshall's defense was better than East's. I said that based on the three games I saw Marshall played better defense. I also said that I have not seen enough games to comment on the state's top defense.

Lee, did someone get ahold of your SN? You are turning into a bambling, private hating poster with no backing for your posts. I call em as I see em. St Thomas has a very good goalie and pretty good defense. No where near top in state. I wasn't taking anything away from East as a team at all. I think they are a really good team. I was simply saying they don't have the best defense in the state. Centennial didn't look all that good today and they were probably East's toughest opponent and now East lost to a lowly Class A team. That's terrible.

Probably no apologies coming my way, but I can live with that. Instead I expect more baseless attacks based on where I attended high school.

I'd opt to put Holy Angels on the list.

HShockeywatcher wrote:hshckfan08, I never said that Marshall's defense was better than East's. I said that based on the three games I saw Marshall played better defense. I also said that I have not seen enough games to comment on the state's top defense.

Lee, did someone get ahold of your SN? You are turning into a bambling, private hating poster with no backing for your posts. I call em as I see em. St Thomas has a very good goalie and pretty good defense. No where near top in state. I wasn't taking anything away from East as a team at all. I think they are a really good team. I was simply saying they don't have the best defense in the state. Centennial didn't look all that good today and they were probably East's toughest opponent and now East lost to a lowly Class A team. That's terrible.

Probably no apologies coming my way, but I can live with that. Instead I expect more baseless attacks based on where I attended high school.

I'd opt to put Holy Angels on the list.

Attacks? Huh. You're being hypersensitive. I owe you no apology. Please get over yourself.

And before you talk about someone not having backing for their posts, maybe you should try looking in the mirror once in awhile.

You're more trouble than you're worth. Read into that what you will. It's a subtle hint. Do I need to make it more clear?

Lee

HShockeywatcher wrote:hshckfan08, I never said that Marshall's defense was better than East's. I said that based on the three games I saw Marshall played better defense. I also said that I have not seen enough games to comment on the state's top defense.

Lee, did someone get ahold of your SN? You are turning into a bambling, private hating poster with no backing for your posts. I call em as I see em. St Thomas has a very good goalie and pretty good defense. No where near top in state. I wasn't taking anything away from East as a team at all. I think they are a really good team. I was simply saying they don't have the best defense in the state. Centennial didn't look all that good today and they were probably East's toughest opponent and now East lost to a lowly Class A team. That's terrible.

Probably no apologies coming my way, but I can live with that. Instead I expect more baseless attacks based on where I attended high school.

I'd opt to put Holy Angels on the list.

WOW where to start...
ok, first- you said Marshall's defense was better than East's right here- "Of those 6 teams I would say that DM and Tonka's defenses were the best". seeing that of the six games you were making reference to included both Marshall and East, that would include both team's defenses. Since you said DM and Tonka's defenses were the best, you would be implying that Marshall's defense is better than East's...
ok, second- why are you saying East doesn't have the best defense in the state 5 sentenses after you said you have not seen enough games to comment on the state's top defense. From what you are saying, if you havent seen them all, then you wouldnt know who is the best.
ok, third- a "LOWLY CLASS A TEAM"!!!???? if you want a lowly class A team, look at the Sleepy Eye's and Moose Lake's of the state. Breck would be a GOOD A hockey program if you ever bothered to follow history or read the front page of the minnhock website.
and fourth- no apology going your way from me

1. I was going based on the games I saw. Based on the games I saw DM's defense played better than DE's. If you've read more of what I've written you'd know that I've said part of that is because DE's defense didn't see the puck much.
2. Based on what I saw they didn't get a chance to play much defense and I didn't think they could qualify as the best.
3. You must be new on this board. I support Class A teams and was making a sarcastic remark about the teams.

HShockeywatcher. I agree with hshck8fan. I sure read it the same way he did that you contradicted yourselve several times on this topic. It looked clear to me that you thought Mtk and DM defensese were better than DE. If you were at the Mtk-DE game and watched DE have 19 more penalty minutes and not give up a goal and then say Mtk's D is better I think you either dont know as much as you say you do or your bias against DE should not be shown on the board as it doesnt support what goes on during a game or give credit where it may be due. Breck played a great game yesterday the shots dont give Breck enough credit for winning a big game. Your sarcastic remark about A teams didnt strengthen my opinion of your comments. Dont be a spin Dr.

HShockeywatcher wrote:1. I was going based on the games I saw. Based on the games I saw DM's defense played better than DE's. If you've read more of what I've written you'd know that I've said part of that is because DE's defense didn't see the puck much.
2. Based on what I saw they didn't get a chance to play much defense and I didn't think they could qualify as the best.
3. You must be new on this board. I support Class A teams and was making a sarcastic remark about the teams.

About your sarcasm, it didnt sound like it, seeing that you have spent plenty of time ripping on east's schedule.
Obviously you support class A teams.
I've had one less year on the forum than you, i just dont waste my day asking useless questions on central's goalie and hyping up the cadets.

HShockeywatcher wrote:I just went back and reread all of my posts. There wasn't a single time I said East doesn't have the best defense, I have only said they have yet to prove to be the best team in state. Two years ago Holy Angels proved they were the best team in the state by killing everyone they played (except for Stillwater who they tied) and getting upset by a goalie who had an amazing game. My only point in all of this is that with East's schedule they don't have that luxury. They went 0-3 at Schwan's last year so were dropped down to Silver and all the teams they play who are usually good are down this year. They have no room for error with their schedule. I personally believe they will get to state 28-0 or 27-1 but also believe that doing that will not have proven much as far as their defense is concerned.

hshckfan08, my first point would be that I think it's silly to call one defense the best 9 games into a season. So, I would not answer that even if I had seen many more games than I had. I have seen three games thus far this year; STA @ DM, Tonka @ DE and HM @ Burnsville. Of those 6 teams I would say that DM and Tonka's defenses were the best. DM faced nearly 50 shots and Willie Paul stood on his head in that game. The puck was in the Tonka zone at least 2/3 of the game and they still only allowed 2 goals, tied for fewest of anyone East has played this season. Burnsville got killed and the puck was never in the HM zone.

Read midwesthockeyscout's post in the goalie thread. It is very similar to what I'm saying about defense. He basically says that the defense doesn't face enough shots and with the amount of shots and good scoring chances they do face a good goalie should do what he is doing. As I commented above, in the Tonka/East game the puck was rarely in DE's end because their offense is so good. They do have a fast offense. If you are in the other team's end the whole game and rarely see any shots, that doesn't prove anything about your defense.

Lee, why don't you post that SOS link on your site somewhere?

Also, making that comment about taking Central off their schedule to make it better is something anyone can do. If anyone takes off the bad teams from their schedule, their schedule will be a lot different. Also, if you're going to take their worst opponent off and move them up the list, then it's only fair to also take off the bad opponents from the teams above them.

HShockeywatcher,

While midwesthockeyscout's post about goalies is a very good point, you can not make the same point for D-Men for the following reasons

-If the puck is never in a teams defensive zone, it is usually because the D-Men win corner battles very often, start the breakout well with few if mistakes and turnovers, hold the blue line well in the offensive zone and play very well in the neutral zone. The D-Men are responsible for the puck not being in their zone and you act like the forwards are the only ones responsible for that.

- Shots are the defense's fault. DM gave up 50 shots. That is an indictment of terrible defense. 50 shots given up in a game is completely rediculous and you say they played better d than Duluth East. C'Mon. Marshall should of been ashamed to give up that many shots. They need to learn to breakout the puck out of their own zone and keep STA wide and the block the shooting lanes. I have rarely seen a good high school team like STA take shots just rack them up, occasionally they do to get a rebound or something, but no good team takes enough garbage shots to influence hte shot count that much.

I can't understand your first paragraph, so I am not going to respond,
I kind of get what you are saying, but when talk about east not having a luxury, I really don't get what you were thinking.

Sorry to other posters who this post sounds similiar to.

I'll make this short (hopefully) as this is wasting so much of my time. I go to a few games, post my opinions and people attack me for having some certain bias.
-I would disagree that receiving a lot of shots is all on the defense. It is also what you do with those shots that makes your defense so good. Keeping the puck in the opponent's zone is offense. It may happen by player who have a D by their name in the program, but that is offense.
-The luxury I am referring to is a tough schedule. Use numbers all you want, but the teams on their schedule aren't great. I'm not ripping on the schedule, I don't dislike the program, I don't have anything against the team at all, they looked like a good team that will probably do well at state if they can stay out of the box. I simply don't think they have a very tough schedule.
-In the Tonka game, East faced 22 shots, although very few of them were quality shots. The puck was rarely in their end, a sign of good offense. Officially Willie Paul faced 39 shots, although I counted numerous that weren't counted. That's an amazing save percentage, as well as good defense being played. How teams do are not in the numbers, though.

Have fun tearing my opinion apart again.