HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

green4 wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:

green4 wrote:This is interesting to me, what is the plan then when Minneapolis does become good? Once good players start playing for the city more and more will they Opt back up to AA? will they expand back out into east and west? That last part to me is the most interesting. With only one team for the whole city and with rising numbers of kids wanting to play for Minneapolis it will become very competitive and depending on how far in the future if they do continue to have more and more kids play they will eventually have to expand.

Seems pretty simple to me.
In a perfect world, more kids stay in the mpls program, less leave for private schools, they become more competitive and schools part off their own ways. With F/R as they are, only South/Southwest would be AA schools and all could likely petition down until either of those schools is on their own.

Really, what's the issue? Right now we have private schools dominating Class A. Who would complain if Minneapolis made it to state or won a title? Would anyone, really? It would be a breath of fresh air to EVERYONE.

Yes but this is not a perfect world, kids are going to leave for private schools. I don't see it being that simple. I don't see Minneapolis bringing back teams for each school and I don't see them getting more than 2 teams for the city unless something extremely drastic changes. But I think eventually if all is going to how it seems it will pan out then they will have to have two teams I believe and at that point Im not sure its worth opting up to AA. I think with one team they will have the talent to compete in AA but if they split into two teams Im unsure.

I bring it up every time this discussion comes up and it is either dismissed or ignored, but I think the quality of the education system affects participation in a sport like hockey. I agree it takes drastic changes, but I know they have happened at Washburn over the last 5+ years and can continue around the city.

As to hockey specifically, with all the lakes and athleticism in the city, you'd have a hard time getting me to believe that the biggest city in the state cannot field a competitive team. They are currently doing a great job, hopefully they keep it up.

It's important to remember in this discussion that many players who "leave Mpls hockey for a private school" never attended a public school growing up.

Out of all the private schools in the Twin Cities how many kids are from Minneapolis? Schools such as BSM, Breck, AHA, TG, even HM and STA

HockeyGuy85' wrote:Out of all the private schools in the Twin Cities how many kids are from Minneapolis? Schools such as BSM, Breck, AHA, TG, even HM and STA

SWPrez probably could ballpark better than I -- but I'd say there are 3 or 4 varsity players at Breck and BSM, 2 or 3 at AHA and Blake. I know there are a few Mpls kids at STA but not sure if any have made varsity in the past couple of years. Not sure if Minneapolis sends any players to Totino, even though they skated at Parade until last year.

If all those kids stayed and played for Minneapolis, that program would look a lot different.

A coach with some clout will help -- getting into a new conference with Blake and Breck will be great for the Novas, and if coach can get some kids placed in the Elite Leagues -- and if Minneapolis starts sending its best younger players to the HP programs -- things could change fast in the next 5 years.

Politics plays a huge part. Today, unless a player has David Backes style skills, he'll get a lot more respect from junior/college scouts at the stronger privates than at Minneapolis. That'll have to change.

Once Minneapolis has the depth to lose its best 10 players to privates and still compete with the likes of Breck and Blake... and TG and Hermantown... ironically more of those top 10 players will opt to stay public.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

green4 wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote: Seems pretty simple to me.
In a perfect world, more kids stay in the mpls program, less leave for private schools, they become more competitive and schools part off their own ways. With F/R as they are, only South/Southwest would be AA schools and all could likely petition down until either of those schools is on their own.

Really, what's the issue? Right now we have private schools dominating Class A. Who would complain if Minneapolis made it to state or won a title? Would anyone, really? It would be a breath of fresh air to EVERYONE.

Yes but this is not a perfect world, kids are going to leave for private schools. I don't see it being that simple. I don't see Minneapolis bringing back teams for each school and I don't see them getting more than 2 teams for the city unless something extremely drastic changes. But I think eventually if all is going to how it seems it will pan out then they will have to have two teams I believe and at that point Im not sure its worth opting up to AA. I think with one team they will have the talent to compete in AA but if they split into two teams Im unsure.

I bring it up every time this discussion comes up and it is either dismissed or ignored, but I think the quality of the education system affects participation in a sport like hockey. I agree it takes drastic changes, but I know they have happened at Washburn over the last 5+ years and can continue around the city.

As to hockey specifically, with all the lakes and athleticism in the city, you'd have a hard time getting me to believe that the biggest city in the state cannot field a competitive team. They are currently doing a great job, hopefully they keep it up.

It's important to remember in this discussion that many players who "leave Mpls hockey for a private school" never attended a public school growing up.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I agree they will have one very skilled team soon.
My drastic changes comment was involving them getting more than 2 teams. I think they will have to expand to how it was 5 years ago with Minneapolis west and east but there will need to be drastic changes if they want to have teams for each school is what I was trying to say above.

[quote="Bulldog3489"]Two schools are over 90% free and reduced lunch kids, two more are over 85%, and the three smaller schools probably average about 45 to 50% free and reduced lunch.

More schools may follow this route to "A" I believe Bloomington Kennedy did.

SWPrez wrote: Minneapolis Edison High School (Enr. 448)
Minneapolis North Community H.S. (Enr. 126)
Minneapolis Patrick Henry H. S. (Enr. 697)
Minneapolis Roosevelt High School (Enr. 527)
Minneapolis South High School (Enr. 1409)
Minneapolis Southwest High School (HOST) (Enr. 1428)
Minneapolis Washburn High School (Enr. 999)

Minneapolis Edison High School (Enr. 448) - 0 kids (any hockey players waive to Saint Anthony or Irondale)
Minneapolis North Community H.S. (Enr. 126) - 0 kids
Minneapolis Patrick Henry H. S. (Enr. 697) - 0 kids
Minneapolis Roosevelt High School (Enr. 527) - 1 kid
Minneapolis South High School (Enr. 1409) - 2 kids
Minneapolis Southwest High School (HOST) (Enr. 1428) - 15 kids
Minneapolis Washburn High School (Enr. 999) - 15 kids

Reduced for estimated Free Lunch Program kids
Minneapolis Edison High School (Enr. 448)
224
Minneapolis North Community H.S. (Enr. 126)
63
Minneapolis Patrick Henry H. S. (Enr. 697)
348
Minneapolis Roosevelt High School (Enr. 527)
263
Minneapolis South High School (Enr. 1409)
141
Minneapolis Southwest High School (HOST) (Enr. 1428)
142
Minneapolis Washburn High School (Enr. 999)
449

That would be 1630. Makes them AA. Of course I am just estimating, but the question still remains, why A and not AA? I understand the weak youth program argument, lack of financial resources argument, but can't those arguments be made with other programs? Is the AA - A theory about putting the best programs at one level and the weaker programs at another level?

When I see Mora vs. Minneapolis on the schedule I smile and think, come on little town kick the s**t out of the big city boys.

My drastic changes comment was involving them getting more than 2 teams. I think they will have to expand to how it was 5 years ago with Minneapolis west and east but there will need to be drastic changes if they want to have teams for each school is what I was trying to say above.

I don't think two teams will ever be the goal again. Although overall numbers are improving the number of dedicated, high level, players isn't the same percentage as some of the suburban programs. The goal should be one strong varsity team playing at A, a strong JV program and then, in the future, a junior gold team.

elliott70 wrote:

SWPrez wrote: Minneapolis Edison High School (Enr. 448)
Minneapolis North Community H.S. (Enr. 126)
Minneapolis Patrick Henry H. S. (Enr. 697)
Minneapolis Roosevelt High School (Enr. 527)
Minneapolis South High School (Enr. 1409)
Minneapolis Southwest High School (HOST) (Enr. 1428)
Minneapolis Washburn High School (Enr. 999)

Minneapolis Edison High School (Enr. 448) - 0 kids (any hockey players waive to Saint Anthony or Irondale)
Minneapolis North Community H.S. (Enr. 126) - 0 kids
Minneapolis Patrick Henry H. S. (Enr. 697) - 0 kids
Minneapolis Roosevelt High School (Enr. 527) - 1 kid
Minneapolis South High School (Enr. 1409) - 2 kids
Minneapolis Southwest High School (HOST) (Enr. 1428) - 15 kids
Minneapolis Washburn High School (Enr. 999) - 15 kids

Reduced for estimated Free Lunch Program kids
Minneapolis Edison High School (Enr. 448)
224
Minneapolis North Community H.S. (Enr. 126)
63
Minneapolis Patrick Henry H. S. (Enr. 697)
348
Minneapolis Roosevelt High School (Enr. 527)
263
Minneapolis South High School (Enr. 1409)
141
Minneapolis Southwest High School (HOST) (Enr. 1428)
142
Minneapolis Washburn High School (Enr. 999)
449

That would be 1630. Makes them AA. Of course I am just estimating, but the question still remains, why A and not AA? I understand the weak youth program argument, lack of financial resources argument, but can't those arguments be made with other programs? Is the AA - A theory about putting the best programs at one level and the weaker programs at another level?

When I see Mora vs. Minneapolis on the schedule I smile and think, come on little town kick the s**t out of the big city boys.

The enrollments SWPrez listed are factoring in F/R lunch, they are the enrollments the MSHSL uses for classification.

North, for example, has 560 students (according to wiki) not the 126 used for classification.

Is there anywhere that lists actual school enrollments anyone knows of?

WarmUpTheBus wrote:

Bulldog3489 wrote:Two schools are over 90% free and reduced lunch kids, two more are over 85%, and the three smaller schools probably average about 45 to 50% free and reduced lunch.

More schools may follow this route to "A" I believe Bloomington Kennedy did.

You're right...Kennedy is in the top 64 by enrollment. This to me just opens up a can of worms by saying just because your program isn't elite you can move down and take spots from small communities. Are we basing Class A/AA on enrollment or hockey tryouts? Whichever it is, perhaps the MSHSL ought to be consistent, after all what's the point of 2 classes if the requirements are arbitrary from one school to the next. Shakopee has a ton of kids and a terrible hockey program, why can't they move down. Its not fair to them either. What about Irondale, the Robbinsdales, Dodge County, etc....

gitter wrote:

WarmUpTheBus wrote:

Bulldog3489 wrote:Two schools are over 90% free and reduced lunch kids, two more are over 85%, and the three smaller schools probably average about 45 to 50% free and reduced lunch.

More schools may follow this route to "A" I believe Bloomington Kennedy did.

You're right...Kennedy is in the top 64 by enrollment. This to me just opens up a can of worms by saying just because your program isn't elite you can move down and take spots from small communities. Are we basing Class A/AA on enrollment or hockey tryouts? Whichever it is, perhaps the MSHSL ought to be consistent, after all what's the point of 2 classes if the requirements are arbitrary from one school to the next. Shakopee has a ton of kids and a terrible hockey program, why can't they move down. Its not fair to them either. What about Irondale, the Robbinsdales, Dodge County, etc....

Great post! And HSHW (STA) is saying they should be able to play A because private schools take their top players?

Comical stuff!

Night Train wrote:

My drastic changes comment was involving them getting more than 2 teams. I think they will have to expand to how it was 5 years ago with Minneapolis west and east but there will need to be drastic changes if they want to have teams for each school is what I was trying to say above.

I don't think two teams will ever be the goal again. Although overall numbers are improving the number of dedicated, high level, players isn't the same percentage as some of the suburban programs. The goal should be one strong varsity team playing at A, a strong JV program and then, in the future, a junior gold team.

And that is fine, I definitely can see that happening but my other point though is if they do stay with one team for the whole city then wouldn't you think they would move back up to AA? at the peewee and squirt levels right now they have the same amount of teams as these suburban schools and they have the talent to compete with them if they have enough kids stay in. the program.

MrBoDangles wrote:

gitter wrote:

WarmUpTheBus wrote: More schools may follow this route to "A" I believe Bloomington Kennedy did.

You're right...Kennedy is in the top 64 by enrollment. This to me just opens up a can of worms by saying just because your program isn't elite you can move down and take spots from small communities. Are we basing Class A/AA on enrollment or hockey tryouts? Whichever it is, perhaps the MSHSL ought to be consistent, after all what's the point of 2 classes if the requirements are arbitrary from one school to the next. Shakopee has a ton of kids and a terrible hockey program, why can't they move down. Its not fair to them either. What about Irondale, the Robbinsdales, Dodge County, etc....

Great post! And HSHW (STA) is saying they should be able to play A because private schools take their top players?

Comical stuff!

The two comments are unrelated.
Every year people talk about how Mpls "loses players to private schools" when the kids they are referring to never attended a Mpls public school. They aren't "taken" either. They are simply going to high school where they had always intended to.

My issue with Mpls specifically is that they have to coop to field a team. Taking a group that needs the coop to field a team and putting them in the top class because of it makes no sense.
Another example would be Monticello. They are a Class A school by enrollment but with the Annandale/Maple Lake coop, they are in AA. I would have no issue with them in A.
Schools like Osseo and Brainerd, on the other hand, are cooped programs so kids at other schools can play hockey. Regardless of ability, they should be in AA.

The idea behind enrollment is that there will generally be more students coming out for sports with higher enrollment. If that is not the case at a school like Kennedy, then I personally have no issue with them in Class A.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:

gitter wrote: You're right...Kennedy is in the top 64 by enrollment. This to me just opens up a can of worms by saying just because your program isn't elite you can move down and take spots from small communities. Are we basing Class A/AA on enrollment or hockey tryouts? Whichever it is, perhaps the MSHSL ought to be consistent, after all what's the point of 2 classes if the requirements are arbitrary from one school to the next. Shakopee has a ton of kids and a terrible hockey program, why can't they move down. Its not fair to them either. What about Irondale, the Robbinsdales, Dodge County, etc....

Great post! And HSHW (STA) is saying they should be able to play A because private schools take their top players?

Comical stuff!

The two comments are unrelated.
Every year people talk about how Mpls "loses players to private schools" when the kids they are referring to never attended a Mpls public school. They aren't "taken" either. They are simply going to high school where they had always intended to.

My issue with Mpls specifically is that they have to coop to field a team. Taking a group that needs the coop to field a team and putting them in the top class because of it makes no sense.
Another example would be Monticello. They are a Class A school by enrollment but with the Annandale/Maple Lake coop, they are in AA. I would have no issue with them in A.
Schools like Osseo and Brainerd, on the other hand, are cooped programs so kids at other schools can play hockey. Regardless of ability, they should be in AA.

The idea behind enrollment is that there will generally be more students coming out for sports with higher enrollment. If that is not the case at a school like Kennedy, then I personally have no issue with them in Class A.

The reason any school is co-oped is because they cannot field their own team. Annandale (Monticello) can't support their own team any more than Pillager (Brainerd) or Maranatha Christian (Osseo) can.

You either figure out Class A by enrollment OR hockey players, NOT both. Otherwise its completely arbitrary.

gitter wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote: Great post! And HSHW (STA) is saying they should be able to play A because private schools take their top players?

Comical stuff!

The two comments are unrelated.
Every year people talk about how Mpls "loses players to private schools" when the kids they are referring to never attended a Mpls public school. They aren't "taken" either. They are simply going to high school where they had always intended to.

My issue with Mpls specifically is that they have to coop to field a team. Taking a group that needs the coop to field a team and putting them in the top class because of it makes no sense.
Another example would be Monticello. They are a Class A school by enrollment but with the Annandale/Maple Lake coop, they are in AA. I would have no issue with them in A.
Schools like Osseo and Brainerd, on the other hand, are cooped programs so kids at other schools can play hockey. Regardless of ability, they should be in AA.

The idea behind enrollment is that there will generally be more students coming out for sports with higher enrollment. If that is not the case at a school like Kennedy, then I personally have no issue with them in Class A.

The reason any school is co-oped is because they cannot field their own team. Annandale (Monticello) can't support their own team any more than Pillager (Brainerd) or Maranatha Christian (Osseo) can.

You either figure out Class A by enrollment OR hockey players, NOT both. Otherwise its completely arbitrary.

Maybe they are not Co-oped just for hockey? Other aspects that are involved.

InYourFace09 wrote:

gitter wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote: The two comments are unrelated.
Every year people talk about how Mpls "loses players to private schools" when the kids they are referring to never attended a Mpls public school. They aren't "taken" either. They are simply going to high school where they had always intended to.

My issue with Mpls specifically is that they have to coop to field a team. Taking a group that needs the coop to field a team and putting them in the top class because of it makes no sense.
Another example would be Monticello. They are a Class A school by enrollment but with the Annandale/Maple Lake coop, they are in AA. I would have no issue with them in A.
Schools like Osseo and Brainerd, on the other hand, are cooped programs so kids at other schools can play hockey. Regardless of ability, they should be in AA.

The idea behind enrollment is that there will generally be more students coming out for sports with higher enrollment. If that is not the case at a school like Kennedy, then I personally have no issue with them in Class A.

The reason any school is co-oped is because they cannot field their own team. Annandale (Monticello) can't support their own team any more than Pillager (Brainerd) or Maranatha Christian (Osseo) can.

You either figure out Class A by enrollment OR hockey players, NOT both. Otherwise its completely arbitrary.

Maybe they are not Co-oped just for hockey? Other aspects that are involved.

Perhaps but I know for sure Esko and Carlton are co-oped (Cloquet) for just hockey. They have their own football, basketball etc.

gitter wrote:The reason any school is co-oped is because they cannot field their own team. Annandale (Monticello) can't support their own team any more than Pillager (Brainerd) or Maranatha Christian (Osseo) can.

You either figure out Class A by enrollment OR hockey players, NOT both. Otherwise its completely arbitrary.

Brainerd is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Pillager is.
Osseo is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Marantha Christian is.

In Mpls, no school on their own could field a team. There's a huge difference.

Shinbone_News wrote:

HockeyGuy85' wrote:Out of all the private schools in the Twin Cities how many kids are from Minneapolis? Schools such as BSM, Breck, AHA, TG, even HM and STA

SWPrez probably could ballpark better than I -- but I'd say there are 3 or 4 varsity players at Breck and BSM, 2 or 3 at AHA and Blake. I know there are a few Mpls kids at STA but not sure if any have made varsity in the past couple of years. Not sure if Minneapolis sends any players to Totino, even though they skated at Parade until last year.
.

BSM = 3
Blake = 7
AHA = 4
Breck = 1
Minnehaha = 2
Edina = 1
STA = 1
T-G = 0

HShockeywatcher wrote:

gitter wrote:The reason any school is co-oped is because they cannot field their own team. Annandale (Monticello) can't support their own team any more than Pillager (Brainerd) or Maranatha Christian (Osseo) can.

You either figure out Class A by enrollment OR hockey players, NOT both. Otherwise its completely arbitrary.

Brainerd is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Pillager is.
Osseo is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Marantha Christian is.

In Mpls, no school on their own could field a team. There's a huge difference.

Southwest and Washburn have 15!kids. They each could have a team.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

gitter wrote:The reason any school is co-oped is because they cannot field their own team. Annandale (Monticello) can't support their own team any more than Pillager (Brainerd) or Maranatha Christian (Osseo) can.

You either figure out Class A by enrollment OR hockey players, NOT both. Otherwise its completely arbitrary.

Brainerd is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Pillager is.
Osseo is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Marantha Christian is.

In Mpls, no school on their own could field a team. There's a huge difference.

Southwest and Washburn have 15!kids. They each could have a team.

SWPrez wrote:

Shinbone_News wrote:

HockeyGuy85' wrote:Out of all the private schools in the Twin Cities how many kids are from Minneapolis? Schools such as BSM, Breck, AHA, TG, even HM and STA

SWPrez probably could ballpark better than I -- but I'd say there are 3 or 4 varsity players at Breck and BSM, 2 or 3 at AHA and Blake. I know there are a few Mpls kids at STA but not sure if any have made varsity in the past couple of years. Not sure if Minneapolis sends any players to Totino, even though they skated at Parade until last year.
.

BSM = 3
Blake = 7
AHA = 4
Breck = 1
Minnehaha = 2
Edina = 1
STA = 1
T-G = 0

Curious who the player is from Edina?

green4 wrote:

SWPrez wrote:

Shinbone_News wrote: SWPrez probably could ballpark better than I -- but I'd say there are 3 or 4 varsity players at Breck and BSM, 2 or 3 at AHA and Blake. I know there are a few Mpls kids at STA but not sure if any have made varsity in the past couple of years. Not sure if Minneapolis sends any players to Totino, even though they skated at Parade until last year.
.

BSM = 3
Blake = 7
AHA = 4
Breck = 1
Minnehaha = 2
Edina = 1
STA = 1
T-G = 0

Curious who the player is from Edina?

Oesterreich - Washburn kid open enrolled and waived over to Edina as a Bantam or second year peewee.

SWPrez wrote:

green4 wrote:

SWPrez wrote: BSM = 3
Blake = 7
AHA = 4
Breck = 1
Minnehaha = 2
Edina = 1
STA = 1
T-G = 0

Curious who the player is from Edina?

Oesterreich - Washburn kid open enrolled and waived over to Edina as a Bantam or second year peewee.

Thank you! Did not know that about him

HShockeywatcher wrote:

gitter wrote:The reason any school is co-oped is because they cannot field their own team. Annandale (Monticello) can't support their own team any more than Pillager (Brainerd) or Maranatha Christian (Osseo) can.

You either figure out Class A by enrollment OR hockey players, NOT both. Otherwise its completely arbitrary.

Brainerd is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Pillager is.
Osseo is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Marantha Christian is.

In Mpls, no school on their own could field a team. There's a huge difference.

Once again, you are incorrect. As Elliott said there are enough kids to field a team at either SW or Washburn. Back when I played, Duluth Marshall had 2 lines and 1 goalie. They played the full season.

elliott70 wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:

gitter wrote:The reason any school is co-oped is because they cannot field their own team. Annandale (Monticello) can't support their own team any more than Pillager (Brainerd) or Maranatha Christian (Osseo) can.

You either figure out Class A by enrollment OR hockey players, NOT both. Otherwise its completely arbitrary.

Brainerd is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Pillager is.
Osseo is not in their coop because they cannot field a team, Marantha Christian is.

In Mpls, no school on their own could field a team. There's a huge difference.

Southwest and Washburn have 15!kids. They each could have a team.

That is in the entire program, not on varsity.

SWPrez wrote:

Shinbone_News wrote:

HockeyGuy85' wrote:Out of all the private schools in the Twin Cities how many kids are from Minneapolis? Schools such as BSM, Breck, AHA, TG, even HM and STA

SWPrez probably could ballpark better than I -- but I'd say there are 3 or 4 varsity players at Breck and BSM, 2 or 3 at AHA and Blake. I know there are a few Mpls kids at STA but not sure if any have made varsity in the past couple of years. Not sure if Minneapolis sends any players to Totino, even though they skated at Parade until last year.
.

BSM = 3
Blake = 7
AHA = 4
Breck = 1
Minnehaha = 2
Edina = 1
STA = 1
T-G = 0

How many of those listed attending public grade schools?

SWPrez wrote:

green4 wrote:

SWPrez wrote: BSM = 3
Blake = 7
AHA = 4
Breck = 1
Minnehaha = 2
Edina = 1
STA = 1
T-G = 0

Curious who the player is from Edina?

Oesterreich - Washburn kid open enrolled and waived over to Edina as a Bantam or second year peewee.

Pretty sure it was PW