Private Schools in A????

[MHGr8ness]

The better class A teams would likely be seeded in the top five if they were in class AA sections. St. Thomas would likely be second in section 3AA, and Breck would be similar to Benilde in 6AA. These teams would be competetive in AA, but would just be solid AA teams. Maybe that should be enough for them, like it is for Benilde. And maybe the possibility of following in the footsteps of Hill and Holy Angels should drive them more than playing in a tournament where most of their better competition comes from other privates.

But my serious question is what Class A would look like without them. Would it not be teams like Hermantown and Warroad dominating the way Eden Prairie does in football? (not winning every year, but enough to be far more dominant than any MN hockey program). I wonder how many sections could produce a legitimate team that could compete with the top 2 teams each year. I would love to see the depth in class A as exists in AA (even the Lakeville teams that often finish in the middle of the South Suburban can at least play a decent game even if they aren't winning). Wouldn't you see a lot more 9-1 type games until the final? I admit I don't know the class A teams well enough, so I'm asking. Few Class A privates seem to knock off the better A programs, as the section eight teams don't face privates in their section, and Hermantown has done well despite Duluth Marshall. Even Mahtomedi beat St. Thomas in the last year or two as I recall. I would just hate to see one or two programs ripping past everyone else each year (even if the 1-2 programs was different every year).

The solution I've heard is to keep all A teams in Class A, but that would really take away a lot of tradition from the AA tournament. I hear northern fans complaining as it is that they are only in two sections, which of course is the inevitable result of having most northern teams in class A already. If Roseau, Bemidji, and Grand Rapids were forced to stay down, Moorhead and Duluth East would be playing more metro teams in sectionals and one could see a stretch where the northernmost teams at state were Elk River and Andover (assuming they were placed in different sections, of course).

Forcing the privates to play in a private tournament sucked in the 60s and 70s when the state champion never really knew it it was the best team in the state. At least with Hill Murray and Benilde in the state tournament, the MSHSL tourney has more clout than it did before 1975.

Finally, it's not like the top A privates are competing with the top AA programs. St. Thomas lost both games to Hill Murray, as well as Edina and Duluth East. If they were in AA, they likely would be ranked between 10-15--nothing to sneeze at, but they wouldn't be at the highest level.

Perhaps being a top 20 or so program in AA should be what those teams aspire to. I agree with everyone who would like to see them voluntarily opt up. But I think that any mandated change may create more problems than it would solve.

Don't allow the Roseaus and Grand Rapids to opt up. That would balance class A some, but even if it was Hermantown and Warroad winning it every year I would rather see that. They're small school who happens to have a passion for hockey. That results in their success in it and they deserve to win it.

If the Brecks and STAs moved up to AA then more kids would be intrigued to attend I think. I'm sure there are some who want to avoid the "second class" stigma that is attached to them currently playing in class A. This would likely improve those teams slightly from what we already said was more than competitive. Where are these kids coming from? The metro area likely which will make these big public power schools slightly worse, leveling out the difference even more.

[Goldy23]

Whats the point of the State Tourney? I'd say it's to let the top teams in the State square off for the opportunity to win it all.

That's why in my opinion, the only way to really make this happen is to go back to a single tournament and let the 16 section winners regardless of size, or being public or private play for the championship. In most years this would have 2-4 of the schools that are currently in A playing with the bigger schools. It would end all of this controversy once and for all and would make for a much more interesting tournament that has a much better chance of showcasing most of the best teams in the state in front of sellout crowds for all games. Wouldn't it be better to see both Minnetonka and Benilde for instance make it at the expense of having to struggle through the weaker teams getting get blown out every year (think 3A every year and at times 1A and 1AA)

Short of doing the right thing and going to a 16 team tourney, I agree that Breck and STA should opt up OR the they should all play by the class size keeping the smaller AA schools playin A.

[tezer13]

Forcing Teams Down to A:
Really don't like that idea. Basically eliminates the North and if teams want to compete at the highest level they should be able to. What better story is there in a season when Roseau has a great group and competes against the giant schools in the Twin Cities.

Opting Up to AA:
I think the A tournament has done some wonderful things for programs, such as Hermantown (though now that they are on the map, I would love to see them opt up and throw their hat in the ring.) The same could be said of the other Private Schools mentioned.

How do you Fix it?
Not sure. Make all Privates AA. Maybe, but that would be unfair to some and if that is the case then how do you choose?

Go back to ONE TOURNEY. I never liked the two class system and always thought a 16 team tourney would have been the answer with a Sectional Final to seed the top 2 teams in each section - while leaving the Section System in place. Won't happen though.

Right Now:
The reality is that they have the choice. Now the noble thing for the super-power privates to do would be opt up. I would throw Hermantown and Marshall in that as well (if for nothing else to get anoher North AA section).

The 2nd reality is that why would they. Why would STA want to go through Hill Murray and WBL every year when they can be an almost shoe-in. Or Hermantown and Marshall go through East, GR, ER, Cloquet and a surging Andover program. They can go to State almost every year as opposed to what? One in ten.

OK this is getting long. Another thing is that Going to the Show helps a program and some of these programs got on the map that way. Would they slide back into oblivion if they did not get the chance? Not sure. But then again would other programs, who would then get the chance to get to State more surge like they did.

The Best Thing About It!
Is that it sure gives you something to root for....or against in Single A every year. If you hate the private schools, tell me you are not fist pumping when Hibbing or Warroad or whoever scores or when they take them out. It's a very cool dynamic of the tourney.

[MHGr8ness]

Forcing Teams Down to A:
Really don't like that idea. Basically eliminates the North and if teams want to compete at the highest level they should be able to. What better story is there in a season when Roseau has a great group and competes against the giant schools in the Twin Cities.

Opting Up to AA:
I think the A tournament has done some wonderful things for programs, such as Hermantown (though now that they are on the map, I would love to see them opt up and throw their hat in the ring.) The same could be said of the other Private Schools mentioned.

How do you Fix it?
Not sure. Make all Privates AA. Maybe, but that would be unfair to some and if that is the case then how do you choose?

Go back to ONE TOURNEY. I never liked the two class system and always thought a 16 team tourney would have been the answer with a Sectional Final to seed the top 2 teams in each section - while leaving the Section System in place. Won't happen though.

Right Now:
The reality is that they have the choice. Now the noble thing for the super-power privates to do would be opt up. I would throw Hermantown and Marshall in that as well (if for nothing else to get anoher North AA section).

The 2nd reality is that why would they. Why would STA want to go through Hill Murray and WBL every year when they can be an almost shoe-in. Or Hermantown and Marshall go through East, GR, ER, Cloquet and a surging Andover program. They can go to State almost every year as opposed to what? One in ten.

OK this is getting long. Another thing is that Going to the Show helps a program and some of these programs got on the map that way. Would they slide back into oblivion if they did not get the chance? Not sure. But then again would other programs, who would then get the chance to get to State more surge like they did.

The Best Thing About It!
Is that it sure gives you something to root for....or against in Single A every year. If you hate the private schools, tell me you are not fist pumping when Hibbing or Warroad or whoever scores or when they take them out. It's a very cool dynamic of the tourney.

How about when Roseau actually wins it? That would be a better story.

I would personally enjoy not seeing any privates, at least not in the A tourney more than just rooting for the one or two teams each year who actuallly have a shot with them.

[sachishi4]

Forcing Teams Down to A:
Really don't like that idea. Basically eliminates the North and if teams want to compete at the highest level they should be able to. What better story is there in a season when Roseau has a great group and competes against the giant schools in the Twin Cities.

Opting Up to AA:
I think the A tournament has done some wonderful things for programs, such as Hermantown (though now that they are on the map, I would love to see them opt up and throw their hat in the ring.) The same could be said of the other Private Schools mentioned.

How do you Fix it?
Not sure. Make all Privates AA. Maybe, but that would be unfair to some and if that is the case then how do you choose?

Go back to ONE TOURNEY. I never liked the two class system and always thought a 16 team tourney would have been the answer with a Sectional Final to seed the top 2 teams in each section - while leaving the Section System in place. Won't happen though.

Right Now:
The reality is that they have the choice. Now the noble thing for the super-power privates to do would be opt up. I would throw Hermantown and Marshall in that as well (if for nothing else to get anoher North AA section).

The 2nd reality is that why would they. Why would STA want to go through Hill Murray and WBL every year when they can be an almost shoe-in. Or Hermantown and Marshall go through East, GR, ER, Cloquet and a surging Andover program. They can go to State almost every year as opposed to what? One in ten.

OK this is getting long. Another thing is that Going to the Show helps a program and some of these programs got on the map that way. Would they slide back into oblivion if they did not get the chance? Not sure. But then again would other programs, who would then get the chance to get to State more surge like they did.

The Best Thing About It!
Is that it sure gives you something to root for....or against in Single A every year. If you hate the private schools, tell me you are not fist pumping when Hibbing or Warroad or whoever scores or when they take them out. It's a very cool dynamic of the tourney.

St. Thomas wouldn't be in a section with HM and WBL. Unless they got creative with geography.

[HShockeywatcher]

Forcing Teams Down to A:
Really don't like that idea. Basically eliminates the North and if teams want to compete at the highest level they should be able to. What better story is there in a season when Roseau has a great group and competes against the giant schools in the Twin Cities.

What better story if Roseau beats Moorhead twice in the season then wins state in A while Moorhead wins state in AA?
The best team in the state of mn is a small school...

Go back to ONE TOURNEY. I never liked the two class system and always thought a 16 team tourney would have been the answer with a Sectional Final to seed the top 2 teams in each section - while leaving the Section System in place. Won't happen though.

I suggested this in a football discussion a few years ago. IMO, it would possibly be better for a school like Triton to make the 7th round after 3 years of making the 6th.

Ultimately, what is the point of the state tournament? My opinion: based a certain parameters, who can win X games in a row? Not: who is the best team?
In hockey, we [in general] want to say the team who can win the games at the end is the best team.
What about you?

The 2nd reality is that why would they. Why would STA want to go through Hill Murray and WBL every year when they can be an almost shoe-in. Or Hermantown and Marshall go through East, GR, ER, Cloquet and a surging Andover program. They can go to State almost every year as opposed to what? One in ten.

While in most years the Cadets would be going through the Raiders, the point is the same. Much is PR. As I asked another poster: Does it look better to alumni who know little about hockey to say "we've gone to state 3 of the last 5 years with 2 titles" or "we made it to the section finals twice and state once in the last 5 years?" Most public school programs are also not built with only players born in their area. At some point, players move to that area, and for whatever reason there is a reason.

tezer13 brings up some great points.

[Django]

What about a system like what is down in English Professional soccer.
At the end of each season the lowest ranking x number of teams are relegated down to the lower level, and the top x teams from the lower level are moved up. So we would end up with a true 2-tier system. Look at section 4a, if the top seed (St Thomas) played the lowest seed (Highland) this would be a game between one of the top teams in the state Vs maybe the weakest team in the state - the result would be perhaps 20-0. That makes no sense for either team. Last year in 4aa Hill beat Como 17-0.
Very strong teams have real advantages of some kind. Having those advantages should force them to play up in AA.

[HShockeywatcher]

What about a system like what is down in English Professional soccer.
At the end of each season the lowest ranking x number of teams are relegated down to the lower level, and the top x teams from the lower level are moved up. So we would end up with a true 2-tier system. Look at section 4a, if the top seed (St Thomas) played the lowest seed (Highland) this would be a game between one of the top teams in the state Vs maybe the weakest team in the state - the result would be perhaps 20-0. That makes no sense for either team. Last year in 4aa Hill beat Como 17-0.
Very strong teams have real advantages of some kind. Having those advantages should force them to play up in AA.

Because we have a class system, not a talent based, tier system.

Yes, private schools theoretically throw a wrench in this approach. But in a sport where [admitted by public school supporters] enrollment isn't a huge factor and money is, where is the line drawn?

Last year the team who ended up getting 2nd in the JV tourney (one of the smaller A teams) traveled around 200 miles to play the team who ended up winning the V tourney (top 3 by enrollment in AA) and lost 4-5 [same score as the JV tourney].
I have an inkling the income levels of those on the team were not the same as well. While enrollment and $ have clear advantages on in the state as a whole, when comparing the top programs, the differences are much smaller.

So, both by principle and application, this is not a tier tournament. Why are people so persistent to insist it should be?

[tezer13]

What about a system like what is down in English Professional soccer.
At the end of each season the lowest ranking x number of teams are relegated down to the lower level, and the top x teams from the lower level are moved up. So we would end up with a true 2-tier system. Look at section 4a, if the top seed (St Thomas) played the lowest seed (Highland) this would be a game between one of the top teams in the state Vs maybe the weakest team in the state - the result would be perhaps 20-0. That makes no sense for either team. Last year in 4aa Hill beat Como 17-0.
Very strong teams have real advantages of some kind. Having those advantages should force them to play up in AA.

I've thought of writing something like that as well. It's an interesting idea. I think MN even did that back in the 80's for Pee Wees. The State Champ in B's had to move up to A - not sure though.

[tezer13]

Ultimately, what is the point of the state tournament? My opinion: based a certain parameters, who can win X games in a row? Not: who is the best team?
In hockey, we [in general] want to say the team who can win the games at the end is the best team.
What about you?

Exactly. A championship is almost always about who gets hot (could be just the goalie), plays the best at the end and many would say when it counts. Are they the best team? Not always and sometimes not even close. It can be both a great thing - when a Cinderella comes out of nowhere to upset everyone, or a super team proves it and runs the table - and a sad thing when the best team gets a bad bounce, bad call etc. It's part of what makes the Tourney so compelling.

I love tournaments to determine a champ, but it is a shame in sports that so many great teams get forgotten because they did not win.

Now some would argue (I may be one of them) is that with the super-power Private schools, it is so lopsided that you need an almost Miracle on Ice to upset them, which could really put a damper on the whole thing. How many years has STA been in the Gold Division of Schwann? It's obvious they can compete and then we go round and round again as to why they should opt up and why they would want to stay.

[The Talon]

I like the 16 team state tourney 1 class idea, but run sections like districts in youth---double elim---if you win out, you are in state, then the next to last team standing in the section gets a bye as well----seed the top 8, then when the 2nd group qualifiers make it, seed them as well-that way you can get a strong section runner up/2nd finalist at 9 (from say section 6) vs an 8 that might win their section (like section 1)---would be a great game, and 7 v 10 and so on---

Obviously, the 16-1 game might be a blowout, but maybe not---

Alternatively, my dream would also be a 16 team double elin state toruney starting with 8 games on a Monday---then 8 on tuesday, 4 on wed, etc etc

but of course, fantasy land dealing with MSHSL

[HShockeywatcher]

A few years ago on a football forum I participated in a discussion about what one class football would be like. There have been years when good AA and AAA teams have won state multiple years in a row, or been good but just missed it.

The idea is that small teams would much prefer to see how they actually stack up against the best teams in state instead of winning a title in a smaller class making them look inferior. In football, that would mean 8-9 rounds. Most sports 7-8.

I don't see "going backwards" in just one sport unless there was a change to how many teams made the playoffs, which is an idea. Look around the country, there are plenty of places who crown 8-12 football champs and 4-6 in most sports. The general idea is in the direction of more championships.

Part is scheduling; more rounds means more time and cutting into other seasons. Would it be a bad idea? Depends on your opinion of what the state tournament means and represents. Many would say no, many would say yes.