Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[MHGr8ness]

I don't get why so many comments advocate going back to one class. Two classes has no effect whatsoever on the AA tourney. Take the top 4 seeds in A, would any of those have made it to state if the tourney was one class? TRF lost 7-0 to Moorhead, STA lost twice to H-M, Breck would have a tough time getting out of 6AA, and Herm may have given East a run for its money, but East would have been the favorite.

Having a Class A tourney does not affect the AA tourney, period. Just don't watch on Wednesday, Friday afternoon, or Saturday afternoon and you won't even know there are two classes. No more inferior hockey games for you AA snobs to suffer through, what could be better?

The issue here is that there are teams drawing from AA-sized talent pools masquerading as A-sized teams. Nearly all of the other schools surrounding the private schools in the Twin Cities, Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud are AA sized, and a significant portion of the top hockey talent from these large communities congregates at the private schools, thus they should be considered AA schools.

And enough with the idiotic "punishing success" argument already. Exploiting a loophole in the two class system is not achieving "success", it is an underhanded and unethical choice made by the administrations of schools that claim to be bastions of integrity, respect, and leadership. The message this sends to their students is, in effect, "Winning is more important than integrity and good citizenship." Bravo.

Real Class A teams can improve their youth programs, facilities, coaching, and community support, but they cannot add an extra 1,500 kids to chose from. Private schools in large communities can.

Hats off to teams like BSM, H-M, AHA, and Holy Family for doing the right thing. Only the internal moral compass of these other "A" private school administrators can change this situation, so we may not see it anytime soon, given said compass seems to not be functioning. They have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that shame is wholly ineffective against those who are shameless.

Enjoy your trophies.

*Cue world's smallest violin*

Ok now that we are past that melodramtic monologue about "fairness" and "shame" I'll try my own hand at painting a little more of a realistic picture of how things stand.

STA has been good for the past 7 or so years, they built a new hockey rink through private fundraising and hired new coaches. To call the program anything but trendy as of yet would be overselling them. They have had good success in a level of hockey where for a vast majority of the program's history success would've been defined by not going out in the first round of sections.

Let's not be coy about the issue, people don't like STA because they are private and they win. Period. There are enough private school haters in the state to begin with; add in enough sore losers and you got a sizable vocal contingent of anti-private lemmings to fan the flames.

Privates know a lot of people don't like them right off, no surprise to anyone. You hear enough "daddy's money" and "cake eaters" chants that after awhile you have to begin to wonder if they have been teaching anything new in the public schools. But I digress, I'm not here questioning the literary chops of metro area publics, I'm questioning their motivation for biting the hand that feeds them.

That's right, the hand that feeds, those bastions of administrative shame and cowardice that you despise so much keep your struggling program afloat. Imagine if the MSHSL did what so many of the haters have been advocating; a single section for privates or a return to a private school tourney would be a disaster for MN high school hockey. How long before getting the shaft (oh and leave the ignorant gay jokes out too, you'd think half the publics were taught by rednecks by how many times you hear EDITED or queer directly at an all male student population) would it take for the privates to just say "screw it" and make their own league? Not long.

You think they poach talent now, wait until the MSHSL has no say over their actions. 60 game schedule, offseason practice, top tier education and connections to dozen of Ivy League and other prestigious schools just to start. Oh I forgot, you better believe if the top privates (AHA, HM, BSM, etc) go full hockey factory that they will be able to offer housing through host families as well, I don't think I need to spell out what that means for retaining stars for public schools.

You'll get the occasional dynamo who wants to forgo the perks of playing advanced level hockey and wants to represent the hometown, which I must say is admirable. But as a whole you'll water down the competition like the punch at a Mitt Romney campaign stop. I don't want to see high school hockey in MN die, quite the contrary I actually want a 16 team combined class state tournament, but that's another post entirely...

In the end a two-sided message to private complainers everywhere:
1. Be careful what you wish for, when the level of competition for HS hockey is like FCS football and BSM/HM/STA/AHA/HF are playing on a different plain don't say you weren't warned.
2. Haters gonna hate at the end of the day. Maybe if you focused on more on your own programs than ours you'd have more success. Its feeling more and more like high school hockey is becoming a PC zone, with new hitting rules, constant bickering about successful programs to the point of wanting to change the system completely, etc.

Is this the lesson plan kids in public schools have been learning from these days, when you can't beat someone change the rules? Sad...

Stickler - not only do you have a top 10 post but by far the top post with no one even close. Simply outstanding commentary!

I think it's awfully difficult to compare MN high school hockey with any other state's high school hockey. More teams, talent, passion, etc.

[KICKED-IN-THE-PRIVATES]

It does not make any sense to move SCC, Lourdes, or Marshall. They do not have the same #'s to draw from as does STA, T-G, Breck, etc...

[rainier]

It does not make any sense to move SCC, Lourdes, or Marshall. They do not have the same #'s to draw from as does STA, T-G, Breck, etc...

They may not have as much to draw from as STA or Breck, but they are certainly drawing from a AA-sized pool. The other three high schools in Rochester are AA, and East is AA while Denfeld is very close to AA. Not sure about SCC though.

Marshall's top player and top goalie transferred from Denfeld, and they are getting more players that would normally go to East.

And it appears Lourdes is the best team in Rochester yet there are three high schools in the city with much larger enrollments.

The number of kids these schools can draw from is easily in the AA range, thus they should be AA schools.

[KICKED-IN-THE-PRIVATES]

It does not make any sense to move SCC, Lourdes, or Marshall. They do not have the same #'s to draw from as does STA, T-G, Breck, etc...

They may not have as much to draw from as STA or Breck, but they are certainly drawing from a AA-sized pool. The other three high schools in Rochester are AA, and East is AA while Denfeld is very close to AA. Not sure about SCC though.

Marshall's top player and top goalie transferred from Denfeld, and they are getting more players that would normally go to East.

And it appears Lourdes is the best team in Rochester yet there are three high schools in the city with much larger enrollments.

The number of kids these schools can draw from is easily in the AA range, thus they should be AA schools.

SCC draws families from the St. Cloud Youth Assc which has only 1 Squirt A, Pee Wee A, and Bantam A teams and they are exactly in the youth state tournament every year. This feeds 3high schools, SCC, Tech, and Apollo. SCC does get it's share of A kids, but Tech usually gets close to the same (though that is not the case recently).

I'm not totally sure on how things play out in Roch. but in Duluth Mashall is now the little sister.... East and Hermantown have better hockey without the pricetag $$$$. EAST #1 choice, Hermy #2, Mashall #3....

And if we take SCC out of the section as it currently sits, we will have a Hermantown vs. Rogers final every year...

[HShockeywatcher]

Maybe if you focused on more on your own programs than ours you'd have more success.

I've been saying this for a while, but it's not the concern for some reason.

Look around the state [and country] at the number of private schools. New schools are starting more and more now as well as, along with that, new hockey programs. It is a serious societal issue that students leave at the rates they do, for any reason. If our public schools can't be where students go for academic and athletic resources, that is not a good sign.

There is a problem around the state [and country] and instead of discussing ways to help it, people simply point fingers. It isn't seen by many of the good hockey programs, because on a whole, those issues aren't rampant at schools that are good at hockey.
There was a post from a Lakeville South follower thinking about how their hockey program would be had many not left and attended St Thomas. I can count on one hand the number of comments blaming that program for the kids leaving, instead of pointing fingers at the school they left to.

The majority of people on this board, and in general in state, are from public schools. Most are very ignorant about private schools, how they operate and how people get there and make claims as if they know everything. Many also seem to possibly be ignorant about the state of public schools in general.

Oh well, life goes on. Hopefully any changes made are good for the overall state of hockey.

Here's why it's not the concern.... People think privates have unfair advantages or are cheating (whether they are or aren't isn't my point, just that people think that)

When you see people cheating in a board game you don't say how can I improve my chances of winning. You call out the cheater.

I don't know about you, but if I'm playing and I feel someone is cheating, I try to figure out if they really are cheating first. Something along the lines of, "I don't think you can do that, I'm going to read the rules" or "hey, that's cheating."
You may not like the rules, but the players* here are not cheating any more than many players* who are not looked down on. Which has been admitted by many on both sides; nothing has been done that is against "the rules" that is not being penalized now.
*players (continuing the board game analogy) are teams/schools

It is simply laughable to hear people on here go on and on about things they are very ignorant about. There was a time I was very ignorant about things in public schools. If I don't know about something, I ask questions. People on here who don't know about something point fingers.

It does not make any sense to move SCC, Lourdes, or Marshall. They do not have the same #'s to draw from as does STA, T-G, Breck, etc...

They may not have as much to draw from as STA or Breck, but they are certainly drawing from a AA-sized pool. The other three high schools in Rochester are AA, and East is AA while Denfeld is very close to AA. Not sure about SCC though.

Marshall's top player and top goalie transferred from Denfeld, and they are getting more players that would normally go to East.

And it appears Lourdes is the best team in Rochester yet there are three high schools in the city with much larger enrollments.

The number of kids these schools can draw from is easily in the AA range, thus they should be AA schools.

I know you've heard of this thing called open enrollment. With the exception of Hermantown, people use it for all sorts of reasons.

Was every player who plays for Hermantown now born in Hermantown? I don't know for sure, but I doubt it. Same goes for many schools/communities around the state. Every school that accepts open enrollment can draw students from everywhere.
The difference is whether your neighbors are paying your tuition or your parents.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

The bias in the system now is too get 8 teams from "geographically diverse" areas in the state tournament each year. You tell me which is better, the potential for a Hoosiers' style run for a small town team against the big boys or New Ulm vs. a random #1 seed?

I'll take the latter. David's generally have no business in section finals. That's why they're David's. It's actually worse because the vast majority of "supersection" games would be blowouts since it disrupts the higher ranked teams from playing one another. Emotion, nor sympathy for stuggling programs should have no say in the matter. If they suck, they suck.

The league may call it "geographically diverse" but I see a practical reason behind it. The potential for long travel commutes could be outrageous come post-season. The time, cost, less parent attendance due to work commitments, weather delays, etc. All this needs to be factored in.

I can unequivocally say I do not feel this way about high school hockey. I guess if you do more power to ya...

The season has to come to a conclusion due to multi-sport athletes. Different sports have to have schedule parameters for the athlete to have that opportunity.

[MHGr8ness]

I've been saying this for a while, but it's not the concern for some reason.

Look around the state [and country] at the number of private schools. New schools are starting more and more now as well as, along with that, new hockey programs. It is a serious societal issue that students leave at the rates they do, for any reason. If our public schools can't be where students go for academic and athletic resources, that is not a good sign.

There is a problem around the state [and country] and instead of discussing ways to help it, people simply point fingers. It isn't seen by many of the good hockey programs, because on a whole, those issues aren't rampant at schools that are good at hockey.
There was a post from a Lakeville South follower thinking about how their hockey program would be had many not left and attended St Thomas. I can count on one hand the number of comments blaming that program for the kids leaving, instead of pointing fingers at the school they left to.

The majority of people on this board, and in general in state, are from public schools. Most are very ignorant about private schools, how they operate and how people get there and make claims as if they know everything. Many also seem to possibly be ignorant about the state of public schools in general.

Oh well, life goes on. Hopefully any changes made are good for the overall state of hockey.

Here's why it's not the concern.... People think privates have unfair advantages or are cheating (whether they are or aren't isn't my point, just that people think that)

When you see people cheating in a board game you don't say how can I improve my chances of winning. You call out the cheater.

I don't know about you, but if I'm playing and I feel someone is cheating, I try to figure out if they really are cheating first. Something along the lines of, "I don't think you can do that, I'm going to read the rules" or "hey, that's cheating."
You may not like the rules, but the players* here are not cheating any more than many players* who are not looked down on. Which has been admitted by many on both sides; nothing has been done that is against "the rules" that is not being penalized now.
*players (continuing the board game analogy) are teams/schools

It is simply laughable to hear people on here go on and on about things they are very ignorant about. There was a time I was very ignorant about things in public schools. If I don't know about something, I ask questions. People on here who don't know about something point fingers.




I agree you should check if they're cheating. I'm not saying anyone is. I'm just saying that people think that some of these privates are cheating and that's why they're going after them and not focusing on their own schools.

[14hockey]

thestickler 07:

Can you tell me this isn't (more) fair? That this wouldn't be better for the game? Think of the David and Goliath stories, something that has been lost in MN hockey for too long, and think of the atmosphere. You think St. Paul is fun now in March? And finally the penultimate problem of all sport would be solved, we would definitely know who the best each year was, as it would be settled on the ice where it belongs instead of on the message boards.

Not really. The bias is it intentionally is trying to create a David vs. Goliath matchup, which it has no business doing. I've always interpreted the Sections as a matter of geographic area that is convenienced by shorter commute times. Like all high school sports the objective is to get them going and done with so the next sport can carry on. You also have to consider travel time and any interruptions due to weather, the financial costs of gas and so forth. Unless you want to shorten the regular season to expand the post season, etc.

But do all sections really do that now? 7AA has teams like Grand Rapids and Flake together and they are over three hours apart. Same with section 5A with Hermantown and St. Cloud Cathederal. Sure the sections work great in the Twin Cities. One division hockey would favor your solution.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

thestickler 07:

Can you tell me this isn't (more) fair? That this wouldn't be better for the game? Think of the David and Goliath stories, something that has been lost in MN hockey for too long, and think of the atmosphere. You think St. Paul is fun now in March? And finally the penultimate problem of all sport would be solved, we would definitely know who the best each year was, as it would be settled on the ice where it belongs instead of on the message boards.

Not really. The bias is it intentionally is trying to create a David vs. Goliath matchup, which it has no business doing. I've always interpreted the Sections as a matter of geographic area that is convenienced by shorter commute times. Like all high school sports the objective is to get them going and done with so the next sport can carry on. You also have to consider travel time and any interruptions due to weather, the financial costs of gas and so forth. Unless you want to shorten the regular season to expand the post season, etc.

But do all sections really do that now? 7AA has teams like Grand Rapids and Flake together and they are over three hours apart. Same with section 5A with Hermantown and St. Cloud Cathederal. Sure the sections work great in the Twin Cities. One division hockey would favor your solution.

If you simply ranked teams without consideration to geograph the travel times could be even LONGER than the three hours your talking about. The current system isn't perfect but at least there's some level of travel containment.

[Ranger101]

I don't get why everyone debates this stupid topic so much. Same crap every year. Even if they made the perfect changes to make everyone happy, all of you would still find some way to bicker. Bunch of "hogwash"! Just win and shut up! This is coming from a public school northerner too..

[rainier]

I don't get why everyone debates this stupid topic so much. Same crap every year. Even if they made the perfect changes to make everyone happy, all of you would still find some way to bicker. Bunch of "hogwash"! Just win and shut up! This is coming from a public school northerner too..

If only there were some way you could avoid having to read this "hogwash", then you wouldn't have to waste your time commenting on this "stupid topic". Maybe someday they will come out with a computer that allows you to click on the subjects you want to see instead of forcing you to read mindless bickering.

Just win and shut up?
Just don't read this and shut up.

[Outoftowner]

Great thread. I enjoyed reading all the posts. Now I'll throw in my opinion.

I like the 16 team idea and one champion. However to create a more geographically diverse A and AA tournament, I favor team conglomerates and freedom of the individual player to go anywhere he/she can make the team.

I would like to see the association/school boarder rules go away so we can develop the individuals based on their skill. Every AA skilled player should be skating at AA. Every A skilled player should be skating at A.

Perennial power houses can compete as one school just as they are. Private schools can recruit from anywhere in the state and generally should skate AA. Smaller schools can join together to create the best team possible so they can skate AA. While their lesser skilled players remain with their school and skate the A schedule.

I just thought this up while reading this thread, so tell me what you guys think... if it would work... if it would not etc...

[HShockeywatcher]

I don't get why everyone debates this stupid topic so much. Same crap every year. Even if they made the perfect changes to make everyone happy, all of you would still find some way to bicker. Bunch of "hogwash"! Just win and shut up! This is coming from a public school northerner too..

[defense]

Time for my annual opinion on this: It don't matter. If ya gonna be State Champion, ya gotta beat someone. Period. Without the cake eating preppies, there would be that much less excitement...no one to cheer against, no big ugly bad guy, no evil empire.
Besides, you really want to wreck the integrity of it even more???? I do not.
One class or leave it alone.
My alma matter was the victim of these prep schools way more than their share of the time, I figure if they lost to them, they just weren't good enough..guess what??? they aint gotta worry about anymore 'cause they aint good enough to get to the X.
Finally, there are way more schools than just the private prep school who should move to AA.....

[MHGr8ness]

Time for my annual opinion on this: It don't matter. If ya gonna be State Champion, ya gotta beat someone. Period. Without the cake eating preppies, there would be that much less excitement...no one to cheer against, no big ugly bad guy, no evil empire.
Besides, you really want to wreck the integrity of it even more???? I do not.
One class or leave it alone.
My alma matter was the victim of these prep schools way more than their share of the time, I figure if they lost to them, they just weren't good enough..guess what??? they aint gotta worry about anymore 'cause they aint good enough to get to the X.
Finally, there are way more schools than just the private prep school who should move to AA.....

AA and A are based off of enrollment, not ability

[hawkey1]

Hermantown is the only school in the state I know of that year in, year out doesn't accept open enrolled students. They operate at capacity and students have to live in the attendance zone to attend. This is not true for most schools in the state. Which, to me, is a great thing.

This is untrue Hermantown has open enrollement it is currently closed. Hermantowns peewee A and B1 teams are going to state this year. The A team has 4 open enrolled players and the B1's have 3.

[defense]

Time for my annual opinion on this: It don't matter. If ya gonna be State Champion, ya gotta beat someone. Period. Without the cake eating preppies, there would be that much less excitement...no one to cheer against, no big ugly bad guy, no evil empire.
Besides, you really want to wreck the integrity of it even more???? I do not.
One class or leave it alone.
My alma matter was the victim of these prep schools way more than their share of the time, I figure if they lost to them, they just weren't good enough..guess what??? they aint gotta worry about anymore 'cause they aint good enough to get to the X.
Finally, there are way more schools than just the private prep school who should move to AA.....

AA and A are based off of enrollment, not ability

And....?????? Your point?????

[thestickler07]

AA and A are based off of enrollment, not ability

A truth too often forgotten on this board.

I'll take the latter. David's generally have no business in section finals. That's why they're David's. It's actually worse because the vast majority of "supersection" games would be blowouts since it disrupts the higher ranked teams from playing one another. Emotion, nor sympathy for stuggling programs should have no say in the matter. If they suck, they suck.

The league may call it "geographically diverse" but I see a practical reason behind it. The potential for long travel commutes could be outrageous come post-season. The time, cost, less parent attendance due to work commitments, weather delays, etc. All this needs to be factored in.

Man I feel like you have a tough time having fun, you don't want to see an underdog make a run? Hell my alma mater is considered the evil empire in HS hockey and I would love to see someone like the 3A champ go on a tear come March!

I've been accused of many things, but having sympathy for "really bad" programs isn't one of them haha.

And blowouts in the supersections?!? I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion but I just don't see any flat out blowouts here save the obvious New Ulm sacrifice(some things never change...) I wouldn't even pencil in Lourdes as a massacre waiting to happen as 1AA has shown us time and again it can be streaky some years.

So where does that leave us? A lot of good teams that would no doubt make for intriguing first round matchups with no debate at the end of it all who the best is. Throw the kids out there at the X and let them settle it for themselves, don't let the MSHSL PC machine water this competition down more than they already have.

Of course inside high school level sports cost containment is a huge issue, these kids aren't out there getting billion dollar television deals for their schools. Obviously geography has to play some role in the process, I would never debate that, my qualms come when we have a system that seems to lack a good balance of the two, namely geography and relative competitiveness.

If we are really trying to find the best team each March at the X, the least we can do is give every team a shot to play for it all each year. Let's stop giving lip service to this lame pc brand of "fairness" and let's give everyone an equal shot at the whole thing. I have a feeling if we did people might enjoy watching High School Hockey more than they do now...

[stpaul]

I don't get why everyone debates this stupid topic so much. Same crap every year. Even if they made the perfect changes to make everyone happy, all of you would still find some way to bicker. Bunch of "hogwash"! Just win and shut up! This is coming from a public school northerner too..

Amen. Now 5 pages about a topic was decided by the coaches, ADs and MSHSL long ago. Private schools were admitted 38 years ago and 2 class hockey based on enrollment 18 years ago. There is no movement whatsoever to change any of it.

[warriors41]

Time for my annual opinion on this: It don't matter. If ya gonna be State Champion, ya gotta beat someone. Period. Without the cake eating preppies, there would be that much less excitement...no one to cheer against, no big ugly bad guy, no evil empire.
Besides, you really want to wreck the integrity of it even more???? I do not.
One class or leave it alone.
My alma matter was the victim of these prep schools way more than their share of the time, I figure if they lost to them, they just weren't good enough..guess what??? they aint gotta worry about anymore 'cause they aint good enough to get to the X.
Finally, there are way more schools than just the private prep school who should move to AA.....

AA and A are based off of enrollment, not ability

And all these private schools have enrollment that put them in Class A. Let it be. What everyone forgets is the Hermantown had a great chance to win the state title in either of the last two years but just couldn't make a few more plays. Because they played Breck and STA people get their panties in a bunch. It is not like these teams are unbeatable. I completely expect Hermantown to win it this year regardless of if they play STA or Breck. And if they lose to a private, it's their own fault. I'm cheering for them, but you should only worry about what you can control. You shouldn't pay attention to where another school's roster grew up. Hermantown is the #1 seed, they have probably the best D in the state, they have solid offensive production. If they find a way to not win state, it's on them; doesn't matter how many kids STA recruited.

[new2coachin]

Probably been mentioned before....if you're a AA coach, don't schedule games against STA,Breck,TG, etc until they opt up. Sure they will get games against their AA conference teams but make them play the remainder of their games against True A teams. Maybe top players will be less interested in attending the Class A schools for educational reasons if they no longer have a AA schedule.

[MrBoDangles]

SSM said they built a Hockey power to popularize their school for attendance/money. Are we able to say that STA and Breck are afraid to move up because they stand to lose attendance/money if they fail?

It's obvious to me that the faculties are fine with taking from the small as long as they're able to line their pockets...

Is STA a Christian school?

[Northhcky]

Hermantown is the only school in the state I know of that year in, year out doesn't accept open enrolled students. They operate at capacity and students have to live in the attendance zone to attend. This is not true for most schools in the state. Which, to me, is a great thing.

This is untrue Hermantown has open enrollement it is currently closed. Hermantowns peewee A and B1 teams are going to state this year. The A team has 4 open enrolled players and the B1's have 3.

This is a HS forum not peewees. And what are you talking about? You say that Hermantown has open enrollment then you say it is closed. Which is it? lol
Here i'll set you straight...there are NO open enrolled players on Hermantowns HS team and there is no open enrollment at the HS level. Yes in some of the lower grades the school was not at capacity and they allowed a few in. They will not be playing at the HS level unless you live in the school district.

[defense]

To me, if it was truly unfair to have privates in class a, the privates would totally dominate, no public school would stand a chance and this would go on for years. This has not been the case. In most, if not all of the years that a prep school has won it all in class a, there has been at least one public who could compete....and if they were that dominant, it didn't last years on end. Many times we have a public school who is this good..people then complain about them.

[hockey59]

If certain teams want to play Class A hockey...even though they have TOP programs...to collect some hardware as State Champions..more power to them.

All most people are interested in (and remember) is who wins the AA title...since 2000 Blaine, ER, AHA, Anoka, Centennial, AHA, CDH, Roseau, HM, EP, Edina and EP. Who remembers who won the class A?

Teams like STA, Breck, Duluth Marshall...and even Hermantown (where most of the new housing in the Duluth area has been built the past 15 years) should be playing AA...plain and simple.

But if these TOP programs are satisfied where they're at...to quote iceman (from top gun): "The, ah, plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies room!"