keegan iverson and paul bittner and mac caruth

[Lazy Scout]

The tuition is based off the local institution in your state so if you want a full ride scholarship then you would have to pick a University in your state. If you want to apply the funds to another University you choose, then you would only get a very partial scholarship, example is based on UMD at $6,000 but you want to go to University of Michigan for $45,000. You would have to pay $39,000...... so really it IS a scholarship based on where you live. For those who are not savvy enough to read the WHL scholarship program and think they can pick any University they want and have it completed paid for are wrong.

So then it comes down to a very partial scholarship, just like scorekeeper is complaining about with the NCAA route....

[scorekeeper]

This is flat-out nonsense and illustrates you either are going to great lengths to mislead people or have zero understanding of basic statistics.

You imply that going to the WHL rather than joining a college team doubled the chance of Seth Jones reaching the NHL.

It's not nonsense at all and I imply nothing of the sort.

the CHL provides almost 60% of NHL talent and has been as high as 75% in some years.

The NCAA provides almost 30% of the NHL talent and has been as high as 33%.

That's better than 2:1 ratio. Perhaps it is you have zero understanding of statistics.

[scorekeeper]

The tuition is based off the local institution in your state so if you want a full ride scholarship then you would have to pick a University in your state. If you want to apply the funds to another University you choose, then you would only get a very partial scholarship, example is based on UMD at $6,000 but you want to go to University of Michigan for $45,000. You would have to pay $39,000...... so really it IS a scholarship based on where you live. For those who are not savvy enough to read the WHL scholarship program and think they can pick any University they want and have it completed paid for are wrong.

So then it comes down to a very partial scholarship, just like scorekeeper is complaining about with the NCAA route....

WHL scholarships are based on a local public University at the time you sign your contract. Agents can negotiate for specific schools and they do. The average scholly is about 13K per year and you can transfer those funds anywhere. Want to go to the University of Regina but lkive in Minnesota? No problem. Cost covered.

Want to go to Harvard ... you can apply the 13K and pay the difference.

[The Exiled One]

You state that a player who goes to the WHL at 16 might get cut before he achieves his 4 year college scholarship.

Of course, there is always that possibility

So you agree with me.

BUT ... the 16 year old who comes to the WHL, say Keegan Iverson, gets a year on signing and a year on playing his first game, so he had 2 years paid scholarship to the U of M as a 15 year old last March.

So does that apply for EVERY Minnesota 15 year old who decides to go the the WHL? If not, then any Minnesotan who doesn't get that deal might want to forget about going to the WHL.

You are NOT just here to clear up WHL misconceptions. You've bashed the NCAA on several occasions including many misrepresentations. You're absolutely trying to convince Minnesotans that the WHL is a better route for ANY kid good enough to make a roster.

Drew LeBlanc was good enough to make a WHL roster. Explain to me how he made the wrong decision.

[The Exiled One]

the CHL provides almost 60% of NHL talent and has been as high as 75% in some years.

The NCAA provides almost 30% of the NHL talent and has been as high as 33%.

That's better than 2:1 ratio. Perhaps it is you have zero understanding of statistics.

Now compare the WCHA to the Eastern Conference of the WHL.

[Lazy Scout]

That's because Canada produces more hockey players than United States in general. The amount per capita of Canadians playing the game of hockey vs. Americans......double or triple....

[scorekeeper]

You state that a player who goes to the WHL at 16 might get cut before he achieves his 4 year college scholarship.

Of course, there is always that possibility

So you agree with me.

No. I don't agree with you at all. In fact, this further illustrates the spin and selective reasoning that NCAA shills like yourself employ to distort the full truth.

The FULL respponse was;

Of course, there is always that possibility possibility BUT ... the 16 year old who comes to the WHL, say Keegan Iverson, gets a year on signing and a year on playing his first game, so he had 2 years paid scholarship to the U of M as a 15 year old last March. He got another for playing this year, so that's 3 years in his pocket, which would be the minimum that any kid that age would get. Does he have to make the team this year to get the the 4th year? Of course he does. He likely will and complete his 4th year of edcuation (and can still earn more), but consider if he didn't for some reason.

1.) If he got hurt and couldn't make the team, he is insured and automatically gets his 4th and 5th years. An NCAA offer would be rescinded on an inury where a player couldn't play.

2.) If he didn't make the team on ability as a 17 year old, then how likely is he to get a decent offer from a decent NCAA school? Maybe a 50% offer? Maybe none. But Keegan already has 3 years in his back pocket. Fortunate in this instance that he went to Portland for that year.

3.) You also forget to mention that NCAA scholarships are performanced based and are on a year-by-year basis. If a player doesn’t live up to expectations, his scholarship money can be reduced all the way down to zero if need be.

So throwing a statement like "Unless he gets cut" as if it has drawbacks compared to the NCAA option is both ill informed and disengenuos at best.

AGAIN, I want to make it crystal clear, I am not bashing NCAA players or families. It's a personal choice that is multi-faceted and there is no one-size fits all solution. There are very valid reasons for certain players to choose the NCAA. I respect and appreciate everyones choice.

What I don't respect or appreciate is shills like yourself who villainize players and families for making a different choice and then further backing up your villainization with lies, spin and falsehoods, like you have done once again here.

Unfortunately, you are not alone, as it runs rampant on this forum, as we are seeing again this morning.

[scorekeeper]

the CHL provides almost 60% of NHL talent and has been as high as 75% in some years.

The NCAA provides almost 30% of the NHL talent and has been as high as 33%.

That's better than 2:1 ratio. Perhaps it is you have zero understanding of statistics.

Now compare the WCHA to the Eastern Conference of the WHL.

LOL. OK, back to your selective reasoning. You want to compare the best NCAA Division to this years worst WHL division. That's so typical.

Be careful what you wish for though ...

[scorekeeper]

That's because Canada produces more hockey players than United States in general. The amount per capita of Canadians playing the game of hockey vs. Americans......double or triple....

Canada does produce more hockey players but I think you will find that Minnesota's numbers compare favorably to it's Western counterparts, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC and the rest of Western USA.

Minnesota also is a hotbed of NCAA hockey and there is great appeal to keeping kids in their own bed through high school graduation and being close to home in University. Minnesotans truly have the best options of anyone and the NCAA is a better option for Minnesotans than it is anywhere else in the world.

Again, we have many friends doing quite well on the NCAA path and the CHL path as well. I am not trying to bash the NCAA as a legitimate option with great benefits. I am simply setting the record straight on the WHL path, which has been badly misrepresented, villainized and oversimplified on this forum.

[The Exiled One]

[LOL. OK, back to your selective reasoning. You want to compare the best NCAA Division to this years worst WHL division. That's so typical.

Be careful what you wish for though ...

Overgeneralizing is just as egregious as selective reasoning.

My point is (especially considering the history of the state of Minnesota and the WCHA) that a Minnesotan getting to the NHL through the WCHA is just as likely as a Canadian getting to the NHL through the WHL. This is a Minnesota forum. There is no reason to lump kids from Canada or the eastern US when talking about the NCAA. The same goes for the WHL and the CHL.

I was just trying to make it more apples to apples, not less. There are 12 teams in the 2012-2013 WCHA, five of which are in Minnesota. There are 12 teams in the eastern WHL. They sent about the same number of players to the NHL. That's apples to apples.

Wisconsin had 20 former players in the NHL this season. Kelowna led the WHL with 18. If I was offered a scholarship to Wisconsin or was drafted by Kelowna, what should I do?

[scorekeeper]

and now to get this one back on track ...

congrats to these 3 for making it to the memorial cup..good luck and enjoy.

It's a big tournament. Represent MN..

Congratulations boys! All the way to a well fought Championship game!

Congrats to Carruth on a fantastic WHL career and good luck moving forward in the Chicago Blackhawks organization!

Keegan and Paul, FANTASTIC rookie seasons and know you will both play a big role in Portland moving forward! Keegan, Good Luck in your NHL draft year as it starts in less than a month! You are in good hands in Portland!

[O-townClown]

the CHL provides almost 60% of NHL talent and has been as high as 75% in some years.

The NCAA provides almost 30% of the NHL talent and has been as high as 33%.

That's better than 2:1 ratio. Perhaps it is you have zero understanding of statistics.

Keeper, there is HUGE selection bias in the sample.

Where do high-level Canadian teenage hockey players go? Major Junior in their home country. There are some like Heatley that choose American colleges, but for the most part they prefer WHL/Q/OHL if anyone will have them.

It is ludicrous to imply they'd cut their chances of an NHL career in half if they went the route of provincial Juniors to NCAA to whatever that leads to afterward. In fact, many players see their chances of playing in the NHL increase because they have so many more development years.

To each their own. I'll watch your kids on TV if they reach the Memorial Cup. Not anything I want for my son.

[scorekeeper]

Wisconsin had 20 former players in the NHL this season. Kelowna led the WHL with 18. If I was offered a scholarship to Wisconsin or was drafted by Kelowna, what should I do?

My point is, whatever you chose, it would be respected, applauded and congratulated.

Is it too much to ask the same thing for Keegan Iverson, Paul Bittner, Logan Nelson, the Walker brothers, Alec Baer etc.?

Is that too much for your ego to just say, "congratulations boys and good luck"!

[scorekeeper]

It is ludicrous to imply they'd cut their chances of an NHL career in half if they went the route of provincial Juniors to NCAA to whatever that leads to afterward. In fact, many players see their chances of playing in the NHL increase because they have so many more development years.

I am not implying anything for any individual. I believe I have stated on numerous occasions it's a PERSONAL CHOICE and that there is no ONE SIZE FITS ALL solution.

That doesn't change the FACT that the CHL supplies more players to the NHL than the NCAA and does so at a GREATER than 2:1 ratio.

Is it because they have better players?

Is it because they have better coaches?

Is it because they have a better development model?

Is it ALL OF THE ABOVE?

I think its All of the Above. You are free to think what you like.

But if you accept the premise, as I do, that the WHL offers a better development model, then it's not ludicrous at all to think you've diminished your chances at an NHL career. That may not be the end goal for all, but I do think a superior development model (for 16 & 17 yr old players being WHL vs High School) plays a part in the Ratio gap.

[The Exiled One]

This is my final point on this. I haven't done the research, nor do I know if it can even be done, but I'd be interested in comparing the net worth of every player in D1 hockey compared to every player in the CHL for a given year... say the year 2000.

Even with all their NHL alumni, I'm guessing the net worth for all of those NCAA college graduates will be higher than their CHL counterparts.

If I'm wrong, I have no problem owning that. I don't think I'm wrong. And ultimately, this discussion has been about "chasing a dream" versus "playing it safe", has it not?

[scorekeeper]

This is my final point on this. I haven't done the research, nor do I know if it can even be done. And ultimately, this discussion has been about "chasing a dream" versus "playing it safe", has it not?

No. Not at all. I think you've really missed the point. I would think most parents don't consider their kids a success or failure based on his bank account. I would hope HAPPINESS is at the top of the list.

[The Exiled One]

My point is, whatever you chose, it would be respected, applauded and congratulated.

Is it too much to ask the same thing for Keegan Iverson, Paul Bittner, Logan Nelson, the Walker brothers, Alec Baer etc.?

Is that too much for your ego to just say, "congratulations boys and good luck"!

I wish them nothing but the best of luck. I'm sure they weighed the pros and cons (and yes, there are cons) of playing in the WHL and made informed decisions. I hope it turns out well for them all.

However, if my kid tries to convince me at the age of 16 that he is better off signing a WHL contract than accepting an NCAA scholarship, he'll have to be more convincing than you have been. To each his own.

[keepyourheadup]

Two points,

Your argument assumes Iverson gains acceptance at minnesota

Scholarships are rarely if ever reduced due to performance. Off ice issues perhaps but not due to poor play. If this were the case you would see a lot more kids leaving programs.

Not sure you are understanding the difficulty of getting in to some of these schools.

[The Exiled One]

No. Not at all. I think you've really missed the point. I would think most parents don't consider their kids a success or failure based on his bank account. I would hope HAPPINESS is at the top of the list.

As would I, but I think you'll find that most scientific studies on "happiness" have a found a strong correlation with wealth. One is a sign of the other, not a cause.

[O-townClown]

I think its All of the Above. You are free to think what you like.

I think it is because they're in Canada.

[Lazy Scout]

So a Minnesota player who chooses to leave at the age of 15 or 16 for the WHL and is doing that well playing with and against 20 yr. olds in the best hockey development league in the world, then I have no doubt they would have been just as good staying here and playing Div. I college and getting drafted by NHL. If you are that good, the scouts will find you. One of these players didn't even play one full year of MN high school hockey and he did that well and was able to compete in the worlds best development hockey league? What it really says is that MN hockey must be damn good then!

Nobody wishes ill well towards these young kids that leave. I hope they make it and do well but I will go to my grave believing that Iverson and Bittner will end up in the same place in the end if they would have chosen NCAA.

[scorekeeper]

Two points,

Your argument assumes Iverson gains acceptance at minnesota

Scholarships are rarely if ever reduced due to performance. Off ice issues perhaps but not due to poor play. If this were the case you would see a lot more kids leaving programs.

Not sure you are understanding the difficulty of getting in to some of these schools.

My argument assumes nothing.

Iverson doesn't have to go to the U of M. He can go to Mankato, Bemidji, UMD and a host of other schools of his choice.

My argument is that now he has the option to do so, already with 3 years in his pocket and the 4th year coming next season. So he will be 17 years old with 4 years guaranteed scholarship money in his pocket.

Wether he is academically accepted doesn't change wether he is playing for Portland or not. In fact, it strengthens his argument for playing in the WHL on two fronts;

1.) Portland will pay for a tutor for Iverson if he needs help getting his grades to an acceptable level

2.) Keegan can switch schools. If he is having trouble getting accepted to one, he can always switch to another.

I don't think you have these options with an NCAA hockey scholarship.

On the scholarship deal, thanks for the correction. That's only new this past season though. Don't kid yourself, it used to be commonplace for coaches to yank scholarships based on poor performance. That only ended this past season, although they may still find ways around it. Nonetheless, a long overdue official change of position. They are also now beginning to offer multi-year deals and even a small stipend. All long overdue changes.

[scorekeeper]

If you are that good, the scouts will find you.

You have to get that good before they can find you. Both are raw, and no doubt will continue to develop. Being in the WHL ensures they will have access to the best development model available. If they are going to be good enough to be found, they are certainly in good hands.

[keepyourheadup]

This is paraphrased from a discussion I had with a D1 coach during a official visit.....we strongly advise our players to stay 3 years, at our school kids are 3 times more likely to finish their degree if they stay that extra year. Unless you can go straight to the show we think you're better off here in the big picture.

This helps explain the 20-30 % graduation rate of CHL players compared to 84% of college players. Starting out college as 22 or 23 year old freshman has its own set of ingrained pit falls.

The WHL is an option, and a good one, for truly gifted players but if you consider education a big piece of the puzzle the stats just don't measure up.

[Lazy Scout]

How does Iverson have three years paid for when he has only played in Portland for 2?

The WHL might be a fit for that truly gifted player but the problem is that too many kids think they are already that gifted player. The WHL knows full well that half these kids will never pan out in the NHL. How do you answer the statistics of only 1 in 25 make it to the NHL from a WHL team?