Twins 34-34 on 6/18

[Irishmans Shanty]

In 1985, these were leadoff men, some went on to hit lower in the order eventually, but some made a living leading off. Raines, Puckett, Gwynn, Willie Wilson, Henderson, Coleman, Sandberg, Boggs, Brett Butler. That's 5 Hall of Famers right there. Are there any future Hall of Famers leading off today or who have led off for a portion of their career? Ichiro?

[packerboy]

There is nobody. The guy that jump starts an offense and creates havoc on the base paths is no more. A lost art.

I dont know what kind of salary Henderson would command today.... but they would probably move him to third in the order and tell him to hit more HRs and forget that stealing stuff

[Irishmans Shanty]

That is exactly right. The protypical leadoff man is extinct, the only dinosaur left is Kenny Lofton, he has extended his career by 3-4 years by doing what other can not, once his skills are totally gone his reputation alone will get him one more contract. Who has money to get the best available at each spot? The Yankees. Look at their leadoff guy, good hitter but doesn't keep pitchers awake at night with his threat to run. Coleman, Henderson, Wilson, Butler, Pettis, Raines, and McGhee all did it in and era gone by. A potentially devastating leadoff guy would be Corey Patterson, problem is his generation or the organizations they play for see him and others like him as harry chested thumpers who can bat third or fourth. HR's get the dough now, not legs. What Patterson doesn't realize is that he could play in this league 15-20 years if he went to the dish and attacked the bases like Lofton has for years. You watch, Cory Patterson will be out of the show well before his physical skill to lead off are gone.

Being a GM has to be a young man's job today. I can see why a 50-60 year old guy may struggle. He saw Henderson play, he may have even drawn up the deal that gave him 7 million over 4 years. Today he has to dangle 30 million over four just to sit down with Juan Pierre's people.

[ChrisK]

There are still a few guys out there who would fit the prototypical leadoff role, starting with the forementioned Ichiro and continuing through guys like Johnny Damon, David Eckstein, Scott Podsednik and Julio Lugo. Castillo should be in that group but he's having an off year this year.

True, it's more of a station to station game but stealing isn't a completely lost art. Stealing is such a physically demanding art that guys get burned out quickly too, Henderson was a freak for how long he was able to keep it up.

[packerboy]

Thats a lot of hog wash ChrisK.

From Ty Cobb to Maurey Wills to Lou Brock to Ricky Henderson guys have had long careers stealing bases.

To say its too physically demanding makes me physically ill.

Why dont you go count pitches or something.

[ChrisK]

Maybe 'physically demanding' is the wrong choice of words, the fact is how many injuries do you see happen on slides into the base? I'm not saying the players are babies, but the chance that a player will jam a finger, twist an ankle goes up every time they slide into a base. Why do we teach players not to slide into first? Partly because it's slower than running it out, but also because of the chance of an injury.

If you want an example of a lost art pick bunting. Is there anybody on the Twins who can lay down a decent bunt? I'd wager that the only players in the major leagues who can still lay down a decent bunt are National League pitchers.

[packerboy]

If you can steal a base, you dont need to bunt and you can advance without giving away an out.

Sliding causes injury but so do a ot of other things that baseball players do. You cant play the game to avoid injury.

Play the game the right way and if you get hurt, you get hurt.

Torri Hunter and Shannon Stewart arent on the DL because of sliding.

[Irishmans Shanty]

When Ichiro set the record a couple years ago for hits in a season nobody cared. Gary Sheffield said something to the effect of, I could get 250 singles a year if I wanted to. Though it came from Sheffield, a man of many ridiculous statements, I believe it says volumes about how contempory players view the old prototypical leadoff man or the slap hitter. Ichiro is a stud on both sides of the ball and I don't think anybody cares. Maybe it's because he is foreign, maybe it's because you can't market a guy who doesn't speak English, or maybe it's because he is geographically too far from ESPN headquarters. You could argue that people notice, afterall, the fans vote him an All Star everyear, but that may be due to the fact that Hunter is a Twin and not a Philly, Red Sock, Met, Oriole, or Yankee.

Face it, since players started injecting themselves, since MLB started winding the balls tighter, since teams started building stadiums with quirky but stupidly shallow/deep (Houston) dimensions, and expansion teams watered down the starting staffs, it has become a Home Run game. Now when your leadoff man gets on, you don't risk loosing him to a caught stealing when your 10 million dollar bats are on deck. Injuries haven't shut down the running game, Home Runs and our lust for them has.

[Irishmans Shanty]

Oh geez I didn't even mention the incredible shrinking strike zone, the institution of the DH, shaving mounds down from 16 inches to 10, ejecting pitchers for hitting batters, batters being allowed to wear armor in order to hang over the plate, and improved bats. What has MLB done since Cy Young was still throwing pitches in anger to benefit pitchers? Do you realize that for anyone to break his record for Wins it would take 20 20 win seasons. One clique says that records are made to be broken. Not that one, not ever, no way!

[packerboy]

Well boys, Its like my mom always said' "There is nothin new under the sun"

I am still not sure what in the hell that means but let me tell you this: In 1915 there were 1.2 stolen bases a game; 1950 the number was down to .2; In 1990 the number was up to.9 ;and we are at about .5 as of 2002.
See:http://bss.sfsu.edu/tygiel/hist490/stat ... 472002.htm

There is absolutely no way I can explain that.

Sure the HR is a big deal but it has been since Ruth. The ball parks started out being quirky, went to asymetrical and are now back to quirky.

In '61 the HR was a pretty big deal but stolen bases went up right along with it.

It must be trends that are dictated by players / mangers/gms.

I cant figure it out.

[Irishmans Shanty]

Until yesterday, I did not know that Rondell White's career batting average was as good as it is, he is .285 with over 5,100 AB's. The arithmetic tells me one could expect a few hits from him over the next couple of months. Maybe that process is beginning, maybe he is finally healthy and maybe playing the field will improve his swing. Playing defense can divert his mind from his last and next at bat, and for some players they need diversion.

Didn't see a lot of the game last night but I did see enough to recognize that Liriano's work last night was once again worthy of canvass and spot in a museum. Finally, did anyone notice Lohse in the 9th. Once an dink, always and a dink. His demotion and trip to the pen still has not taught him a lesson. He looked a little disgusted by having to get up and finish the game. After he recorded the last out he was the only Twin on the field not enjoying yet another win, you could see him talking out the side of his mouth about something or someone. Lohse is clearly all about himself and the Twins are done with him. I think it's personal now between Lohse and Gardy. Why is Baker in the rotation over him? What did Silva do that Lohse didn't do to get back in the rotation? I'm loving it, Lohse deserves everthing toilet they make him clean from here on out.

[packerboy]

Yah IS, the guy is an accomplished, professional major league hitter. His 162 game career average numbers are .289 23HR 86RBI.

Thats why he is still here.

His inability to hit here ia a mystery unless he has just lost it.... he is 34 and that happens. See Bret Boone for example.

I hope you are right and he comes around. It would be huge if he could hit 12 HRS and bat .280 the second half. Huge.

[packerboy]

PS, I cant stand even talking about Lohse. He is a cancer on that team. Get rid of him.

[ChrisK]

Lohse would do well on my son's Little League team (crushed by the way on Monday, playoff hopes now dim), he's about at that maturity level. I can't see the Twins getting much for him though, if Ryan works out any kind of a trade for him he'll be doing well.

I've been thinking the same thing about White, Shanty. He's never had good power numbers, but he hit .313 last year and Brett Boone notwithstanding, it is unusual to see a sudden huge drop in hitters numbers, they usually decline gradually. He had never been a fulltime DH before and I recall reading Ryan musing that he thought the adjustment was maybe more than Ryan or White expected.

[EREmpireStrikesBack]

Did anyone else watch the game last night? Did it look like Lohse seemed pissed that he "had" to go in to pitch? It looked like he was mad when he had to get up and warm up.

Btw, I have 4 vouchers for Twins tickets that I won at a golf tournament. They are good for Lower Level Reserved on Sunday-Thursday games and Upper Level Club on Friday & Saturday games. Can't be used on bobblehead days. It isn't looking like I will have anytime to go, so if anyone is interested in taking all 4 or 2 of them or whatever, let me know. $26 tickets, I'm willing to give them up for $22 or so a ticket with free S&H.

[Irishmans Shanty]

Heard a good story about Kenny Lofton when he was with the Yankees a couple years back. Kenny Lofton was being a punk towards Joe Torre about his playing time and where he was batting in the order. One day Gary Sheffield went to Lofton and said something like, you keep this up and it's not just that you won't be here anymore, but you'll be out of baseball. I thought it was refreshing to here that there are still some coaches/managers out there that still have leverage over players.
Hope Gardy has the pull around MLB that Torre does, because Lohse isn't long for the show.

[ChrisK]

Shanty, that's interesting because anyone who's followed Sheffield's career knows that he's not been a model citizen himself. I found this list of issues he's had:

• a troubling admission that as the 19-year-old shortstop of the Milwaukee Brewers, he deliberately made errors to force his way out of town

• a gunshot wound in his non-throwing shoulder which apparently resulted from a failed car-jacking in 1995

• three-and-a-half seasons of being a both a devastating hitter and a bona fide pain in the <rear> for the Los Angeles Dodgers, agitating for either a huge contract extension or a trade

• allegations that he had received performance-enhancing substances from the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative (BALCO)

• questions about his durability such that he'd averaged only 136 games a year over the past 12 seasons (a period that includes the '94-'95 work stoppage) and has only topped 150 games three times

However, he seems to have matured as a Yankee, except for the steroid thing he's been controversy-free. So there is hope for Lohse, but he's got a long ways to go.

[Irishmans Shanty]

No question that Sheffield has provided a lot of fodder for talk radio and the Back Back Back Network over the years. However, sometimes the public athlete isn't always the private athlete. Maybe Sheffield has started to mature, but even if he hasn't, he still can recognize a guy (Torre) that has paid his dues as a player and manager and to disrespect him is a mistake. I'm not a Sheffield expert, therefore I could be wrong but I think a lot of his troubles have been with Upper Management. I haven't heard a lot of teammates or field managers that have had a lot of problems with him. It's nice to know that a guy with an image problem can be a clubhouse cop for the good guys.

[Blue Breeze]

The difference between Lohse and Sheffield is that Sheffield has enormous talent, Lohse does not. Sheffield is going to get 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chances because he can hit with the best of them. If not for attitude problems and with a few more good seasons, he would be getting Hall of Fame consideration. I think Lohses' time is running out, his attitude does not fit in well with a team that prides itself on unity and chemistry.

White looks to be swinging better since the rehab stint, albeit against average pitching, but he is up over .200 with 3 homers now. He could be the solid righthanded bat we need so desperately. Twins are playing well after a short slump before the break, hopefully they can improve on their road woes.

[packerboy]

5 games out of the WC boys. Who would have thunk it a month ago?

Lets sweep the DRays today, win the series vs Cleveland and go to the Windy City just 3 back. I wonder how cocky Ozzie would be then? I love the guy but lets have a little humility.

Any talk of 'unloading' players must now come to an end. Still need to add a slugger but that wont happen.

I think they can stay in it with their pitching and if their offense just stays on the track its on.

[Irishmans Shanty]

.
I hope you are right and he comes around. It would be huge if he could hit 12 HRS and bat .280 the second half. Huge.

With 2 Dings last night, I think you should crank that 12 up to about 15. The Rondallion Stallion showed up, it only took until July 19, but he is in plenty of time to be a factor. Ladies and Gentlemen, Elvis is IN the building.

Breeze your 100% correct, the difference between Sheffield and Lohse is that Sheff is infinitely more talented and accomplished. The back of his baseball card says so. Lohse, you're not good enough to be a tool, that's why you're a moron.

[packerboy]

I am sure Rondell is telling his teamates "Climb on my back boys, Ill carry you the rest of the way"

Its great for him and the team. Now, lets go do it on the road vs the Central.

[ChrisK]

The Twins win again today, apparently Johan didn't have his good stuff but still picked up the win. Give 'em credit they're beating up on the teams they should but now they've got road series at Cleveland and Chicago.

[sterfry9]

rondell white.....man its nice to see him start performing.....his base running skills could use a just a little work though but im just glad to see him getting on base now....around the horn was discussing liriano for possible cy young they were saying they should give it to him or roy halladay of the blue jays what do you guys think...him starting in the bullpen might hurt his chances a little bit but rookie of the year for sure i would assume

[goldy313]

Much of the Twins season including whether Liriano can win the Cy Young or Rookie of the Year will depend on whether the Twins can improve on their 10-27 record vs the AL on the road. All the ground they have made up can just as easily be lost in the next 6 days at Cleveland and at Chicago, this is the same team that lost 2 of 3 at KC just over a week ago. The White Sox are really hitting an easy stretch for the next month now with 17 games at home and road series with KC, Baltimore, and Toronto. In that same stretch the Twins only series against losing teams are at Cleveland and at KC, the Twins also have to play at Toronto, at Detroit, and at Chicago. If the Twins don't go .500 on the road during this stretch they're probably going to play their way out of contention.

At this point the top Cy Young candidates are probably Halladay, Liriano, Schilling, Verlander, and Santana. I'd vote for Halladay as of today because of who he has had to beat; 3-0 against Boston, and wins against Minnesota, NYM, LAA, and the Yankees as well. Unfortunatley Liriano has 5 of his 11 wins against bad NL teams, that may hurt him more than any time he spent out in the Bullpen. If Liriano and the Twins can get some road wins against Toronto, Chicago, and Detroit he'll be a Cy Young winner.