The ADM Question

[frederick61]

Q--Forest lake will sell ice. Why wouldn't we?? Have to make the payments..I think the privates will come. People I have talked to say AAU has it's own pile of problems.[volleyball, pumpkinpush] These parents have said that these "clubs" get very political. I'm not sure what he ment and I did't push.

Yeah, I'm sure the AAU has problems, and I don't think it's a good idea.

There are people that have a stake in private hockey that are looking at it. But, I would much rather see some kind of independent league, or better yet some rule changes so that a kid from Stillwater could play with his summer buddies from FL. NPC hit it on the head. There are a lot of ice arenas surrounding the greater metro that need to pay the bills, and as you said why wouldn't they sell ice to anyone that wants to buy it.
And if more people were as open to change as you are there would be no problem.

If I understand the Michigan AAU hockey approach, it is reaching into the mite level first and trying to form mite traveling teams. It does not include older kids.

Also it is important to note that the outstate associations have been "protected" by Minnesota Hockey fending off USA Hockey's Tier II association approach. Minnesota Hockey does not seek to qualify an association AAA or AA or A by measuring the association's facilities (including arenas), coaching, hockey boards, and the association's handbook. It lets the association look at its own numbers and talent each year and lets the association designate the level of play for each team. USA Hockey designates the level an association can play by evaluating each association.

Note USA Hockey applies the same evaluation process applies to Tier I AAA organizations, but organizers easily get around it and that allows them to field AAA teams that contain all sorts of kids that hop from team to team.
That results in the single worst problem the better USA Hockey based youth teams have; NO COMPETITION without traveling for hundreds of miles on a weekend. Here in Minnesota, most youth teams are good and have depth. There is COMPETITION not far down the road on a week night.

Finally, kids have been playing summer hockey in the Twin Cities since the mid-1980's when a guy in St. Louis Park put scheduling software on a personal computer and went twin cities wide buying ice and organizing multiple leagues at various levels. That is still going on. Some associations still run spring/fall hockey leagues for fun.

AAA summer hockey is more recent and works to the advantage of Minnesota Hockey. It uses up the ice hours in the summer and supports the arenas and it has improved competition in the winter. But it turns hockey for those kids that play at that level into a 12 month sport. To me, that is too much of a good thing. I have seen numbers of kids tire from hockey when they are second year bantams and fade out of the sport because that sport dominated their childhood.

[Quasar]

Just for the fun of it....

The driving time from some towns to Siren Wi

Hayward Wi 1 hr
Spooner Wi 1/2 hr
Grantsberg Wi 18 min
Rice Lake Wi 1 hr
North Branch Mn 1 hr
Pine City Mn 40 min
Cambridge Mn 1hr 15min
East Bethel Mn 1hr 15min
Forest Lake Mn 1 hr

Cut these times by 1/3 if your under 50 yrs of age

[Quasar]

If I understand the Michigan AAU hockey approach, it is reaching into the mite level first and trying to form mite traveling teams. It does not include older kids.

Also it is important to note that the outstate associations have been "protected" by Minnesota Hockey fending off USA Hockey's Tier II association approach. Minnesota Hockey does not seek to qualify an association AAA or AA or A by measuring the association's facilities (including arenas), coaching, hockey boards, and the association's handbook. It lets the association look at its own numbers and talent each year and lets the association designate the level of play for each team. USA Hockey designates the level an association can play by evaluating each association.

Note USA Hockey applies the same evaluation process applies to Tier I AAA organizations, but organizers easily get around it and that allows them to field AAA teams that contain all sorts of kids that hop from team to team.
That results in the single worst problem the better USA Hockey based youth teams have; NO COMPETITION without traveling for hundreds of miles on a weekend. Here in Minnesota, most youth teams are good and have depth. There is COMPETITION not far down the road on a week night.

Finally, kids have been playing summer hockey in the Twin Cities since the mid-1980's when a guy in St. Louis Park put scheduling software on a personal computer and went twin cities wide buying ice and organizing multiple leagues at various levels. That is still going on. Some associations still run spring/fall hockey leagues for fun.

AAA summer hockey is more recent and works to the advantage of Minnesota Hockey. It uses up the ice hours in the summer and supports the arenas and it has improved competition in the winter. But it turns hockey for those kids that play at that level into a 12 month sport. To me, that is too much of a good thing. I have seen numbers of kids tire from hockey when they are second year bantams and fade out of the sport because that sport dominated their childhood.

Yes I believe the Michigan AAU is trying to build from the bottom up.
I like the Summer winter set up, but too many kids are trying to do both...
perhaps some kind of combination as has been suggested would work.

Yes, I too know of kids that burned out, I also know many that didn't .
some kind of choice within the Minnesota hockey framework is the answer.

[O-townClown]

Ask OTC how long he has kids driving to get to practices.

Our program has about half the kids within 30 minutes of the rink and the other half traveling 45-75 minutes. The state's Tier I programs draw from as much as 4 hours away, even further if they have the Jacksonville kids. Last night I went out to Applebee's with one of my teammates and his son, who travels just over 2 hours to practice with his team, which is a weekend program. Finally, I met a guy originally from Minnesota whose son was one of the goalies for the PW runner-ups. They had 4 players from out of state (including the two from Lakeville).

Some of these are Tier I issues and some of these are a result of a low hockey density. (17 facilities for the 4th most populous state in America.)

[HockeyDad41]

Outstate must be much different than the suburbs.

I am confused at who the AAU will be targeting. I mean if the AAU takes hold in Edina and grabs 3 teams worth of lower A and upper B teams, that team and talent level is going to look very different from the 3 teams from Princetion.

I am a little confused here. Either HD41 is yanking my chain or I am really bad at making my points. My position is that by the time that AAU or an AAU entity gets to the point that they are in Edina grabbing three teams of B+/A- kids MN Hockey is done. I do not think that a new league is going to go to Edina and try that. It is too easy for Edina and MN Hockey to shut that one down. The only way that a new group can come in is for them to have a place to call home and to work out of. That is not Edina, it is someplace within an hour or less of Edina though. It might be a group that comes in and gets going at the Mite level and then grows. It might be a group that comes in at the PeeWee bantam level and grows down. It might be both. I am not sure and do not think it matters. I think that if they come in for Mites and the Squirts see this free flow of players to get to a best fit situation they will want it too and begin to get a squirt angle going. Same for PeeWees and Bantams. I do think though that the bulk of the unhappiness is at the Bantam and PeeWee levels so that is where the most instability is so that is probably where it will start.

And for the record the problems in the burbs are in some ways very different than outstate and in some ways exactly the same. Lack of opportunity being the biggest one.

I might be wrong though, I was once, back in the 70s, I said I thought Nixon would get away with it...............

It was me. I'm following you now.

[Payner44]

[quote="old goalie85"]I can't afford my five hockey players. Why would I be interested in paying for someone from Edina's kid????????? Yea right !!!!! People have lost their minds, I thinks the idea of choice is fine!! But we should pay our own way..........You want your kid to fly around the country playing hockey thats cool with me. You pay for it.....[/quote]

Exactly how it should be!!

[spin-o-rama]

I do not think that a new league is going to go to Edina and try that. It is too easy for Edina and MN Hockey to shut that one down. The only way that a new group can come in is for them to have a place to call home and to work out of. That is not Edina,.....

Have you heard of the Choice league that is based in Edina?

Just because the Choice league is doing well does not mean that MH needs to do away with their play where you live/attend school policy. HD41 can clarify this, but it seems Choice is somewhat confined to the mite level. The squirt level has less teams, some of the participants are mite aged, and some are girls (everyone concerned about girls playing MH with the boys can be grateful for Choice taking them).

MM is using more of their own ice this winter, so they are growing (maybe squirts are increasing). I understand they have vastly reduced what they are selling to associations this winter. Their model has appeal for reasons beyond huge icetime. Everything at 1 location has appeal to Edina families that have had to travel to over 10 locations for inhouse mites in the past. It is very well organized. Bernie chose a location with lots of potential customers. He probably got less than 1% of the 3rd year mites within a 20 mile radius his first year. Outstate demographics will require a much bigger % participating over a larger area. Sure, there may be 5-10% of outstaters that are disgruntled, but is there 1 solution that will gruntle the whole lot? It will be a bigger challenge. The next successful challenge will probably come from the metro.

MH will be fine. They have learned a lot from the Choice challenge, including the Hewitt/D6 fiasco. It will not be as easy for Who's Next (great album). Just hanging out a shingle will not be enough.

Bernie did try to get affiliate status from MH, they snubbed him. He didn't cave and has adapted quite well. Maybe someone else will do it too. I just don't think it will be a gimmee.

[HockeyDad41]

I do not think that a new league is going to go to Edina and try that. It is too easy for Edina and MN Hockey to shut that one down. The only way that a new group can come in is for them to have a place to call home and to work out of. That is not Edina,.....

Have you heard of the Choice league that is based in Edina?

Just because the Choice league is doing well does not mean that MH needs to do away with their play where you live/attend school policy. HD41 can clarify this, but it seems Choice is somewhat confined to the mite level. The squirt level has less teams, some of the participants are mite aged, and some are girls (everyone concerned about girls playing MH with the boys can be grateful for Choice taking them).

MM is using more of their own ice this winter, so they are growing (maybe squirts are increasing). I understand they have vastly reduced what they are selling to associations this winter. Their model has appeal for reasons beyond huge icetime. Everything at 1 location has appeal to Edina families that have had to travel to over 10 locations for inhouse mites in the past. It is very well organized. Bernie chose a location with lots of potential customers. He probably got less than 1% of the 3rd year mites within a 20 mile radius his first year. Outstate demographics will require a much bigger % participating over a larger area. Sure, there may be 5-10% of outstaters that are disgruntled, but is there 1 solution that will gruntle the whole lot? It will be a bigger challenge. The next successful challenge will probably come from the metro.

MH will be fine. They have learned a lot from the Choice challenge, including the Hewitt/D6 fiasco. It will not be as easy for Who's Next (great album). Just hanging out a shingle will not be enough.

Bernie did try to get affiliate status from MH, they snubbed him. He didn't cave and has adapted quite well. Maybe someone else will do it too. I just don't think it will be a gimmee.

I too agree that MH will be fine. I've always thought there is room for both MH and some privates to fill the gaps.

I don't know what will happen or how I will feel about it all once the kid gets to PW level, but for the squirts and mites I don't see a need to tube the association model as long as there is something out there to supplement their offering.

Maybe the thing that makes it different for me, is that I don't really have an endgame in mind. The decisions I make today for where Jr. plays isn't based on some idea that he will play NHL, D1 or even high school. It's based on more on what is going on with him right now and what's available.

I sort of feel like I am typical of the parent that would give the alternate league (AAU?) a good look, and I am not all that excited about it, so I guess I wonder if it will take. I think we'll see more offerings from programs like MM, and United AAA before we see a new league forming. Maybe I'm dead wrong and we'll see the first team form this fall, either way I'm ok with it. I'd probably get involved with it somehow.

[Quasar]

Well guys, I guess the jokes on us. Seems that the new league is already here, and It started in Edina,
I just read the peewee choice league data on the Minnesota Made web site. I have copied it here.

“The Choice Peewee Checking Winter Hockey League is a full hockey league that offers an alternative option for athletes. The Choice Peewee Checking league offers athletes three tournaments , individual skill based on ice instruction, league games, and dry land training including the hockey treadmill.
Program Format will include Full Checking

Each team will have about 150 hours of training over the course of the season. Each team will have 40 games plus 3 inter-league tournaments all consisting of three 20 minute stop time periods. The NEW addition of Individualized dry land training, incorporating a skating treadmill, plus strength and conditioning that will compliment the already intensive on ice training program that is at the core of the Choice development training plan.”

150 hours of ice, 40 games , three tournaments. Don’t think they can do that with one or two teams. So who are these teams going to be? Any one know any thing about this? How about filling us in.

[HockeyDad41]

Well guys, I guess the jokes on us. Seems that the new league is already here, and It started in Edina,
I just read the peewee choice league data on the Minnesota Made web site. I have copied it here.

“The Choice Peewee Checking Winter Hockey League is a full hockey league that offers an alternative option for athletes. The Choice Peewee Checking league offers athletes three tournaments , individual skill based on ice instruction, league games, and dry land training including the hockey treadmill.
Program Format will include Full Checking

Each team will have about 150 hours of training over the course of the season. Each team will have 40 games plus 3 inter-league tournaments all consisting of three 20 minute stop time periods. The NEW addition of Individualized dry land training, incorporating a skating treadmill, plus strength and conditioning that will compliment the already intensive on ice training program that is at the core of the Choice development training plan.”

150 hours of ice, 40 games , three tournaments. Don’t think they can do that with one or two teams. So who are these teams going to be? Any one know any thing about this? How about filling us in.

I can't tell if you are joking or not.

[O-townClown]

Quasar, Minnesota Made started their Choice program with 100 Mites. Those kids are now older. They've grown by adding older age groups, first Squirts and then Pee Wee, but it has targeted the same market.

All they need are six teams and this is easy. Possible with five or four, but I'm guessing they are shooting for six. As for the tournament, I'll wager lunch it is really an intra-league tournament. After all, they misspell the word complement in the next sentence.

I don't find it earth-shattering that McBain has his in-house PW league checking. It'll make news if families have their top player sign up here rather than play a District 6 Pee Wee A schedule.

[Quasar]

Quasar, Minnesota Made started their Choice program with 100 Mites. Those kids are now older. They've grown by adding older age groups, first Squirts and then Pee Wee, but it has targeted the same market.

All they need are six teams and this is easy. Possible with five or four, but I'm guessing they are shooting for six. As for the tournament, I'll wager lunch it is really an intra-league tournament. After all, they misspell the word complement in the next sentence.

I don't find it earth-shattering that McBain has his in-house PW league checking. It'll make news if families have their top player sign up here rather than play a District 6 Pee Wee A schedule.

If someone else out state, or in the metro, or in Wisconsin forms a couple of teams will Minnesota made winter choice teams play with them?

I am well aware of the history of Minnesota Made. So far Mr. McBain has been right about almost every thing he's done. He seems to be at the forefront of some kind of movement toward expanding choices for hockey players.
I always though Bernie was content to have his summer teams, and his training choice league in the winter. I think I was wrong. Looks to me like the anti trust case opened the door, and I think more than a few will be walking through it.
By the way ... The Stanley Cup is an Intra league tournament ..

I have the answer I was looking for ..Think I'll move on

[O-townClown]

If someone else out state, or in the metro, or in Wisconsin forms a couple of teams will Minnesota made winter choice teams play with them?

Why would you ask that question here? Just go to the Made and ask them.

[frederick61]

It is amazing to me how adults can convolute the youth hockey. The “choice league” will operate out of Minnesota Made. For a peewee, the cost for the year will be $2195 with $500 paid at tryout time. The league is geared for upper end and potential elite players.

It will run from early-October to mid-March or twenty three weeks. Assuming the 140 hours includes game times (40 games), that will mean 6+ hours of ice per week and a ratio of practice to games 3.5+ hours to 2.5 hours.

It sounds like an in-house elite league that limits travel to how far you live from Minnesota Made. It is an interesting concept and I wonder how this ties into Edina’s potential fielding two peewee A teams in 2012-2013. Could Edina’s expansion be to find a place for the A/B borderline players in their program?

So why is this adults convoluting youth hockey? At the mite and squirt level, kids really don’t care where or how they play hockey. They want to play games. At the peewee age, they start to care because they move from looking to parents for approval to looking to their peers for approval. This sort of screws them up since their peers who would be skating in association hockey will look at them playing “house hockey” no matter how good the program is.

My opinion is that I would like to see it succeed because it provides another outlet for kids to learn the sport. My hope is that the loss of ice hours at Minnesota Made will not slow the Edina program. My concern is that this maybe a symptom that Edina’s participation numbers are down.

[jpiehl]

Minnesota Made announced the PeeWee Choice league a day or two after USA Hockey passed their PeeWee checking proposal. It looks to be pretty much the same format as the Squirt Choice league, so it isn't really anything earth-shattering. But the kids that played in the PeeWee supplemental league last year were pretty much all top-end players, but that might be because it was a supplement to asssociation hockey. It is really just the natural extension of things for the kids that started in the Mite Choice league when it was new, and you may very well see a Bantam Choice league in a few years for that same group of kids. They turned away over 700 kids from the various levels of the Choice league last season, so the demand is very much there, and if someone starts something similar (like AAU) people will go.

[MrBoDangles]

I'ts time to wake up for those that think the MN model has nothing to worry about. Remember that the choice leagues turned away hundreds of kids. What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

MN Hockey is just like the bulk of the posters on here.. They think everything is great and nothing will change.

In District 10 there are top notch programs that might not be able to field A teams because their top 3-5 players will be playing in the peewee choice league........ and this is happening way up in D10..

MN Hockey is currently getting pounded in a battle that they seem to not know that they are in. It's time to make the MN model one that nobody would want to leave....... More options.

- Leave a morning or weeknight open for pooled teams to play extra games. Like a Sunday afternoon - back to back - one hour rolled games. OPTIONAL for those that want more.

- Or it could be pooled district teams(Quasar) that compete against each other on a certain day. Elite through C level?? The regular season could be followed by a short district pooled team season that could end with a district tournament state championship..

- District teams that would compete in the national scene. Wouldn't that be a great thing to see?

- Fall elite league for the association levels.... They figured out they needed this at the high school level because of the lack of competition during the season. Why not have it for the younger kids?

* These are only ideas

You would obviously need to be a part of association Hockey to be involved. I know that I would love to see my kids have some type of options like these. T he alternative is Mn quickly becoming a privatized market.

Thanks Q! White belly is now a red belly..

[O-townClown]

What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

A bunch of people would lose a ton of money?

[MrBoDangles]

What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

A bunch of people would lose a ton of money?

They would fill being how the current model is.

It's coming.......

[Quasar]

What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

A bunch of people would lose a ton of money?

Would you care to expand on this comment?

[MnMade-4-Life]

...In District 10 there are top notch programs that might not be able to field A teams because their top 3-5 players will be playing in the peewee choice league........ and this is happening way up in D10..

True, but there are other factors in a couple associations that will not have a full complement of PW players. Also, a couple may not even field PWA teams for the first time in years. But, it is true that the cream of the first year crop will be skating Choice for three major associations in D10. (Last I heard anyways from reliable parents I share beers with.)

...- District teams that would compete in the national scene. Wouldn't that be a great thing to see?

Yes it would, I'd wager that 3 to 4 of our "HPC/select" district teams would easily compete in the top 10-12 of the national Tier I level. ... IM(not so)HO.

Let's assume birthyears 98-02.
Guaranteed D3, D6, D8 & D10
Possible D2, & D5

**My only fear is that I love high school hockey. While I would love to see the "HPC/select" teams at the youth level, I would NOT like to see it succeed past freshman year. I hate seeing kids leave early for anything other than team USA. But, that doesn't mean the players shouldn't have a choice to do what is best for them to chase down their (not their parent's!) dreams.

[Quasar]

What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

A bunch of people would lose a ton of money?

Not really. MN Hockey would lose a lot of players.
Parents who are spending money on hockey now will spend it someplace else.
The demand would become such that 5 more after that will have to open.

A bantam season or two prior to High School might be just what the doctor ordered.

A chance for the un-chosen to prepare for high school try outs.

[HockeyDad41]

I'ts time to wake up for those that think the MN model has nothing to worry about. What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

Can those 5 centers exist without the creation of new ice sheets? I don't want to drive 30 miles for ice at 9:30pm.

[Quasar]

I'ts time to wake up for those that think the MN model has nothing to worry about. What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

Can those 5 centers exist without the creation of new ice sheets? I don't want to drive 30 miles for ice at 9:30pm.

You may not want to drive 30 miles at 9:30. I'll bet some others woulld.
As for the other part of your post...

The National Sports Center Blaine Mn....... 8, count them, 8 sheets of ice. Hard to get to?? Distance in miles

Downtown Minneapolis .....19
Downtown St Paul ..............19.5
Edina....................................25
Stillwater .............................30
White Bear lake ...................20
North Branch .......................32.3 ...I think BO could handle this!
Forest Lake .........................16.5
New Brighton .......................8.8
Mounds View.........................7.5
Fridley.....................................8.3
Plymouth ...............................24.7
Woodbury .............................29.3

A lot of big time hockey players within 32.3 miles of 8 sheets of ice in one place. Not to hard to get your head around that if your looking for an alternative.. Some one home basing at the NSC could run down to Edina ( 30 mi. about 25 min )to scrimmage the Made without even breaking a sweat.

This stuff is not difficult...

[HockeyDad41]

Devil's advocate says: "Assuming that the format is similar to the one existing alternative and they use 80-90 minute ice times for practice, plus the fact that the associations will have most all of the prime ice hours, how do you sell the idea that the players will more than likely not get to bed before midnight several nights a week during the school year?"

[frederick61]

I'ts time to wake up for those that think the MN model has nothing to worry about. What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

Can those 5 centers exist without the creation of new ice sheets? I don't want to drive 30 miles for ice at 9:30pm.

You may not want to drive 30 miles at 9:30. I'll bet some others woulld.
As for the other part of your post...

The National Sports Center Blaine Mn....... 8, count them, 8 sheets of ice. Hard to get to?? Distance in miles

Downtown Minneapolis .....19
Downtown St Paul ..............19.5
Edina....................................25
Stillwater .............................30
White Bear lake ...................20
North Branch .......................32.3 ...I think BO could handle this!
Forest Lake .........................16.5
New Brighton .......................8.8
Mounds View.........................7.5
Fridley.....................................8.3
Plymouth ...............................24.7
Woodbury .............................29.3

A lot of big time hockey players within 32.3 miles of 8 sheets of ice in one place. Not to hard to get your head around that if your looking for an alternative.. Some one home basing at the NSC could run down to Edina ( 30 mi. about 25 min )to scrimmage the Made without even breaking a sweat.

This stuff is not difficult...

Currently, the Super Rink sells the sheets for the winter season to local associations. Irondale uses Rink 1 as its home. I believe Moundsview has at least two of the rinks. Blaine had a rink (Rink 7?) last year. Bethel College may also have own the winter ice last year. I don't know if they are long term agreements, but I suspect some are.