O-townClown wrote:This thread is all over the map. Like Grey says, many of the recent threads should be on the HS forum because we're no longer talking about Minnesota Youth Hockey.
I'm very aware of the good-player-from-a-small-association dilemma. What I'm not clear on is how a limited number of Tier I teams helps them.
One Tier I team at a birthyear based out of Southwest suburbs probably ends up being 4 kids from Edina, 3 from Eden Prairie, 2 from Minnetonka, 2 from Chaska, and one each from Osseo, St. Louis Park, Bloomington, Burnsville, Apple Valley, and Eagan.
Two Tier I teams and maybe we have that and another made up of 2 kids from Anoka, 2 kids from Coon Rapids, 3 kids from Andover, 2 kids from Albertville, and a player each from Rogers, Elk River, Centennial, etc...
How many teams is this limited number before we get the stud from Detroit Lakes on a team with the best from Roseau, Warroad, and Moorhead? Remember, a central point to this argument is that these kids are going to practice together. Sounds like a weekend program to me.
Speaking from experience here, what would happen is that these recognized Tier I teams would be created and many of those families (great-player-in-a-small-association) would say, "no thanks."
District all-star teams are a great idea, but isn't that essentially what we're left with in the unregulated Spring/Summer? Guys form what you call "AAA" teams for Open and Invite tournaments. These affected kids (great-player-in-a-small-association) are hardly left out.
Pay $1,600 and watch your kid go backwards over the Winter after a Summer of World Class Training?
Speaking from experience here, what would happen is that these recognized Tier I teams would be created and many of those families (great-player-in-a-small-association) would say, "no thanks."
I guess you forgot our experience is that we don't have that choice in Minnesota.
O-townClown wrote:This thread is all over the map. Like Grey says, many of the recent threads should be on the HS forum because we're no longer talking about Minnesota Youth Hockey.
I'm very aware of the good-player-from-a-small-association dilemma. What I'm not clear on is how a limited number of Tier I teams helps them.
One Tier I team at a birthyear based out of Southwest suburbs probably ends up being 4 kids from Edina, 3 from Eden Prairie, 2 from Minnetonka, 2 from Chaska, and one each from Osseo, St. Louis Park, Bloomington, Burnsville, Apple Valley, and Eagan.
Two Tier I teams and maybe we have that and another made up of 2 kids from Anoka, 2 kids from Coon Rapids, 3 kids from Andover, 2 kids from Albertville, and a player each from Rogers, Elk River, Centennial, etc...
How many teams is this limited number before we get the stud from Detroit Lakes on a team with the best from Roseau, Warroad, and Moorhead? Remember, a central point to this argument is that these kids are going to practice together. Sounds like a weekend program to me.
Speaking from experience here, what would happen is that these recognized Tier I teams would be created and many of those families (great-player-in-a-small-association) would say, "no thanks."
District all-star teams are a great idea, but isn't that essentially what we're left with in the unregulated Spring/Summer? Guys form what you call "AAA" teams for Open and Invite tournaments. These affected kids (great-player-in-a-small-association) are hardly left out.
I said 5 programs. One program in Bjemidji (or Moorehead not sure which would be best), one in Duluth, one in lets say Blaine, one in Eden Prairie area, and one in Mankato. Yes some of these programs will have some kids from big associations, so what, you cannot exclude them from the choice just becuase they happen to be from a good association. And for the record theoretically Tier 1 should be for the very best who try out for the team, if the smal assocaiton kid isn't good enough to make the team then maybe that's a reality check on how good they are, maybe not but atleast it became an option for them to pursue.... unlike now....
MrBoDangles wrote:Pay $1,600 and watch your kid go backwards over the Winter after a Summer of World Class Training?
You have no idea.
Yes, the old you-have-no-idea arrow despite the fact my son played five years in one of the smallest associations in the country.
I won't say you have no idea, but I question how familiar you are with the hockey model in places like Michigan, Massachusetts, California, Colorado, Texas, Illinois, or Pennsylvania.
The problem you are worried about is not unique to Minnesota. What is different in Minnesota is the residency requirement. Seems to me you are still looking for Minnesota Hockey to wave a magic wand to make the association's shortcomings go away.
JSR wrote:I said 5 programs. One program in Bjemidji (or Moorehead not sure which would be best), one in Duluth, one in lets say Blaine, one in Eden Prairie area, and one in Mankato. Yes some of these programs will have some kids from big associations, so what, you cannot exclude them from the choice just becuase they happen to be from a good association. And for the record theoretically Tier 1 should be for the very best who try out for the team, if the smal assocaiton kid isn't good enough to make the team then maybe that's a reality check on how good they are, maybe not but atleast it became an option for them to pursue.... unlike now....
So in two years when these five teams have players coming from other parts of the country (displacing the Minnesotans this is supposed to benefit) to stay with a host family, will you deem them a success?
JSR wrote:I said 5 programs. One program in Bjemidji (or Moorehead not sure which would be best), one in Duluth, one in lets say Blaine, one in Eden Prairie area, and one in Mankato. Yes some of these programs will have some kids from big associations, so what, you cannot exclude them from the choice just becuase they happen to be from a good association. And for the record theoretically Tier 1 should be for the very best who try out for the team, if the smal assocaiton kid isn't good enough to make the team then maybe that's a reality check on how good they are, maybe not but atleast it became an option for them to pursue.... unlike now....
So in two years when these five teams have players coming from other parts of the country (displacing the Minnesotans this is supposed to benefit) to stay with a host family, will you deem them a success?
MN also has the right to have residency requirements on the kids playing. Write your bylaws on the Tier 1 teams how you want to write your bylaws, you can keep that from happening (atleast en masse) as well. But that said, if the programs are that good that players are leaving places like the Chiacgo Mission to come play for your teams up there instead then yeaa, I'd say they were a humungous success... but probably soem bad written bylaws that allowed them to be overrun like that but yea technicaly successful. We have residency requirements even for Tier 1 in WI and the number of out of state kids that can play for a given team, granted there are always loopholes but you'll never get away from that, but well crafted bylaws can keep that from happening as well........
MrBoDangles wrote:Pay $1,600 and watch your kid go backwards over the Winter after a Summer of World Class Training?
You have no idea.
Yes, the old you-have-no-idea arrow despite the fact my son played five years in one of the smallest associations in the country.
I won't say you have no idea, but I question how familiar you are with the hockey model in places like Michigan, Massachusetts, California, Colorado, Texas, Illinois, or Pennsylvania.
The problem you are worried about is not unique to Minnesota. What is different in Minnesota is the residency requirement. Seems to me you are still looking for Minnesota Hockey to wave a magic wand to make the association's shortcomings go away.
I don't think that is what he is saying at all, I think he is saying he wishes he had more of a choice. I won't lie, my association is a very small one. One we've played for for years but somethings happened in the last little while that made staying there for my oldest son virtually impossible (and it wasn't just poor coaching and playing below his level, it was other sucky stuff that shouldn't happen but we all know does.... but anyway....) and I couldn't be more happy that we have a Tier 1 AAA winter organization less than a half an hour from my house. He tried out for that team and made that team. And you know what, couldn't be happier about it. Blessed we can afford it as it is more money than association hockey for sure but happy because we had that choice, we weren't prisoners to an association that no longer was meeting our family's needs. It's not for everyone and it is not a magic wand but it sure was nice to be able to have a choice
Let's change this discussion. Who do you think "they" are? You are the "they." It's up to you. There is no "they." It's a member driven organization.
Stop fussing and get busy. We're anxious to see your proposal and we will help and coach you as you develop it.
"They" are the parents of all the squirts and peewees. Yes it is a member driven organization. "They" is the members ..
But ... Hey, let's change the subject... Let's use the old let's see your proposal ploy ..
How about this ... Let's discuss all sides of the issue so that "they" can have all sides of the Issue at hand when "they" write up their proposal to "Them"
And while were at it lets move this to the high school forum so "they" don't see it..
One we've played for for years but somethings happened in the last little while that made staying there for my oldest son virtually impossible (and it wasn't just poor coaching and playing below his level, it was other sucky stuff that shouldn't happen but we all know does..
..
"The wind gets a lot stronger at the top of the hill"
Don't let anyone destroy his passion for the game. Or yours either for that matter...Q
One we've played for for years but somethings happened in the last little while that made staying there for my oldest son virtually impossible (and it wasn't just poor coaching and playing below his level, it was other sucky stuff that shouldn't happen but we all know does..
..
"The wind gets a lot stronger at the top of the hill"
Don't let anyone destroy his passion for the game. Or yours either for that matter...Q
I hear ya loud and clear and I'm trying hard not too..... Tried to shield the boy from all of it the best I could so I don't think he's any worse for wear I still am part of the association, I still help coach U8's there and I am on the board trying to make things better, so I am a "doer" not a "griper", as my youngest son still plays there and his age group is great but like I said, for the sake of my son and my family it was best for my older boy to make this move at this time, and for the record our high school coach whom he will play for in a couple short years also strongly recommended that he do this as well and he's a really good high school coach whom I respect alot. The good news is his best friend in the whole world plays for this new team and his favorite coach he has ever had in any sport now coaches on this team too, he's a wonderful coach who really makes kids love the game while also teaching them how to play it well, the other coach is great as well. So it's honestly a win for all involved in this situation, again not a magic wand that will cure all the ills of the world but it was nice to have that option available
MrBoDangles wrote:Pay $1,600 and watch your kid go backwards over the Winter after a Summer of World Class Training?
You have no idea.
Yes, the old you-have-no-idea arrow despite the fact my son played five years in one of the smallest associations in the country.
I won't say you have no idea, but I question how familiar you are with the hockey model in places like Michigan, Massachusetts, California, Colorado, Texas, Illinois, or Pennsylvania.
The problem you are worried about is not unique to Minnesota. What is different in Minnesota is the residency requirement. Seems to me you are still looking for Minnesota Hockey to wave a magic wand to make the association's shortcomings go away.
1. How bout you name the association and describe the terrible coaching(you didn't stay? ) your kid had for five years. Yes, you've won the lottery if your kid has good coaching at a small association in Minnesota.
2. Lack of numbers! The Hockey model(travel) in those places is terrible, but not by choice. It's a supply and demand thing here in Minnesota... And most of the time your kid will get a better bang for YOUR buck fom the Summer AAA season here in Minnesota. You'll always find a price that fits here..
3. Yes! Residency! It can be a huge problem!
- Give small association kids the opportunity to try out for a pooled district A team
- Creative district teams(before/after) for the players interested.
- Break down the iron curtain so we can compete against the best in National and North American competition.
Q: "No need to give em a program that would cost around a grand! "
So you want to be taken seriously yet you think a Tier 1 AAA team would cost about $1,000? Or did you mean $10,000?
JSR: I understand you are saying a full program of U10-Midgets. I would agree the only way this works with complete age groups. You have suggested 5 programs? But what if my kid gets cut? Can we have 6 programs then? And if we need 5 programs to meet demand in the metro, how about having 5 out-state teams. But if you don't make the metro 5 teams, can you waiver to an out-state program? And what if too many imports are renting apartments in neighboring out-state program residency area. Can we create a few more programs, I mean to meet the needs of players locked out of Tier 1 due to no fault of their-own? Or can we do this like Detroit, you are free to play for any organization that will cash your check?
Long story short, incompatibility between coach and player. Supported coach until I could no longer support coach. (Everything runs counter to all published material on youth sports, childhood development, and hockey coaching.) Coach surprised many of us by returning so I asked if my son could play on another team within org and was told no.
O-townClown wrote:Long story short, incompatibility between coach and player. Supported coach until I could no longer support coach. (Everything runs counter to all published material on youth sports, childhood development, and hockey coaching.) Coach surprised many of us by returning so I asked if my son could play on another team within org and was told no.
No worries. Everyone's happy.
Do you understand what you just said? The little pebble you were standing on just crumbled!
I understand full well. And as my friend told me, the problem you have in a very small association where there is only one team per level is that you don't get a change of scenery annually.
But I'm confused by what the problem is. Is it that top players are being held back because they are on community-based teams or is there really a problem with lack of choice.
Most of the arguments on the Tier I thread are solved with a Tier II choice model. I see that as far more likely within Minnesota Hockey. Pooled A teams for Districts make sense. Big difference from Tier I.
O-townClown wrote:I understand full well. And as my friend told me, the problem you have in a very small association where there is only one team per level is that you don't get a change of scenery annually.
But I'm confused by what the problem is. Is it that top players are being held back because they are on community-based teams or is there really a problem with lack of choice.
Most of the arguments on the Tier I thread are solved with a Tier II choice model. I see that as far more likely within Minnesota Hockey. Pooled A teams for Districts make sense. Big difference from Tier I.
O-townClown wrote:I understand full well. And as my friend told me, the problem you have in a very small association where there is only one team per level is that you don't get a change of scenery annually.
But I'm confused by what the problem is. Is it that top players are being held back because they are on community-based teams or is there really a problem with lack of choice.
Most of the arguments on the Tier I thread are solved with a Tier II choice model. I see that as far more likely within Minnesota Hockey. Pooled A teams for Districts make sense. Big difference from Tier I.
BadgerBob82 wrote:Q: "No need to give em a program that would cost around a grand! "
So you want to be taken seriously yet you think a Tier 1 AAA team would cost about $1,000? Or did you mean $10,000?
I think we have to get off this Tier 1 nomenclature. I'm talking about Minnesota kids playing in Minnesota. District teams could play for a lot less than $10,000.00.
There are Minnesota high school teams charging less than $500.00 per season
You "Can't do it" guys gotta step out of the box!!
BadgerBob82 wrote:Q: "No need to give em a program that would cost around a grand! "
So you want to be taken seriously yet you think a Tier 1 AAA team would cost about $1,000? Or did you mean $10,000?
JSR: I understand you are saying a full program of U10-Midgets. I would agree the only way this works with complete age groups. You have suggested 5 programs? But what if my kid gets cut? Can we have 6 programs then? And if we need 5 programs to meet demand in the metro, how about having 5 out-state teams. But if you don't make the metro 5 teams, can you waiver to an out-state program? And what if too many imports are renting apartments in neighboring out-state program residency area. Can we create a few more programs, I mean to meet the needs of players locked out of Tier 1 due to no fault of their-own? Or can we do this like Detroit, you are free to play for any organization that will cash your check?
Bob, I just read your post to JSR. Now I see why you don't get it!
The parents of the kids I'm talking about understand how it works. If your not good enough you don't make the team.. If you don't make the team you play at the next level.
You seem to be looking at this from a vantage point of a kid that doesn't have the talent to compete, but still wants to..
Come on Bob Don't be afraid .. The sky is not falling.. There will always be a place for everyone... It's called choice.. something you seem dead set against. Besides JSR is in Wisconsin. In Minnesota the association model would cover the waterfront if they allowed pooled district teams and Midgets. No need for anything else.
Quasar, you would do well to re-read the thread from a year and a half ago on what Tier I means. If you are talking about "elite hockey" you should say you are talking about elite hockey.
Tier I means something. It is not the same as "elite hockey".
Guy goes into McDonald's and orders a ribeye. Clerk says they don't offer. "Just gimme one of them Big Macs, dang it!"
"For the future, a Big Mac is one of our hamburgers."
"Oh, I just call all beef a ribeye. You're confused. Keep up!"
Whatever.
Bo wants choice for those (like him) in a weak association. JSR sees benefits to overlaying Tier I atop Minnesota's community-based model with five programs. Quasar thinks changes need to be made and it could be as simple as a Fall Elite league for U16s and U18s.
Too bad Bo doesn't live in Massachusetts, JSR in Michigan, and Quasar Slovakia.
A challenge for Minnesota Hockey is that folks have a lot different vision for what reform would look like.
As I said in 2011, I see the cleanest path being to allow rosters coded "Tournament" (rather than Tier I, Tier II, or Rec) for the months of September & October. Clubs could put together a preseason 10 game league and add in a trip to Warrior.
I still am part of the association, I still help coach U8's there and I am on the board trying to make things better, so I am a "doer" not a "griper", as my youngest son still plays there and his age group is great but like I said, for the sake of my son and my family it was best for my older boy to make this move at this time, and for the record our high school coach whom he will play for in a couple short years also strongly recommended that he do this as well and he's a really good high school coach whom I respect alot. The good news is his best friend in the whole world plays for this new team and his favorite coach he has ever had in any sport now coaches on this team too, he's a wonderful coach who really makes kids love the game while also teaching them how to play it well, the other coach is great as well. So it's honestly a win for all involved in this situation, again not a magic wand that will cure all the ills of the world but it was nice to have that option available 
) your kid had for five years. Yes, you've won the lottery if your kid has good coaching at a small association in Minnesota.