keegan iverson and paul bittner and mac caruth

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Thu May 30, 2013 2:41 pm

scorekeeper wrote:Are you refering to the fact the NHL teams that drafted them prefered they played WHL? That's no suprise.

That, or they flunked out of college, which is also no surprise.

Lazy Scout · Post by **Lazy Scout** » Thu May 30, 2013 2:42 pm

Bottom line is the WHL is not for the true student athlete. So maybe if a kid doesn't pan out in the AHL or NHL, they can go to trade school or vocational school as a 25yr old and that is perfectly fine.

It's a competitive world out there and if I knew hockey wouldn't be my future pay check ( by looking at the percentages) I sure as hell am glad I have my degree from a 4 yr. college.

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Thu May 30, 2013 2:44 pm

The Exiled One wrote:
scorekeeper wrote:
The Exiled One wrote: Okay, I'm not sure how you're going to spin this, but Tyler Pitlick? Jim O'Brien? Mark Parrish? Cam Reid? They all played NCAA then played WHL.

*This should be a neck wrenching twist.*
Not sure what you are looking for here ... what about em?
Uhhhh.... you lied?

scorekeeper wrote: If you choose NCAA you can't play major junior.

LOL. In the words of Ronal Reagan, "there you go again" ... I see the selective edit is out in full force.

What I said was

scorekeeper wrote: The NCAA absolutely forces you to choose and it forces you to choose at the young age of 15 or 16. If you choose NCAA you can't play major junior.

Thats the big decision, because the NHL drafts at 18, and playing in the WHL at 16 & 17 is HUGE. Lots of guys leave college, but it's not in the equation for 15 & 16 year olds.

Nice try though.

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Thu May 30, 2013 2:44 pm

Do any of you actually work?

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Thu May 30, 2013 2:45 pm

Lazy Scout wrote:Bottom line is the WHL is not for the true student athlete. .

That's the BIG LIE. The WHL is absolutely for the true student athlete. A better scholarship with more variety. Due to the fact most will not make the NHL, serious students should find the WHL MORE appealing due to it's superior scholarship. A 7 year fully paid for Masters degree beats a partially paid for bachelors degree. I hope your college taught you that.

Lazy Scout · Post by **Lazy Scout** » Thu May 30, 2013 2:50 pm

Tigers33 wrote:Do any of you actually work?

No I don't work yet. I'm in my 7th year of my WHL school scholarship. :

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Thu May 30, 2013 3:42 pm

That's awesome!! Ialto!!

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Thu May 30, 2013 4:30 pm

scorekeeper wrote:This is the basic problem with shills like yourself. You know and I know there is no fine print.

I said the pro-WHL rubes (that'd be the likes of you) always try to gloss over these realities when they try to make the WHL into the greatest thing the hockey world has ever seen. The reality is there are flaws in their system that should be clearly brought up in the debates over why (or why not) to play in that league.

The stipulations they set are very confining for a lot of the players. They are essentially forced to stop pursuing higher levels of hockey after one year of aging out or else they lose their scholarship. That's a fact that no amount of your BS can deny.

Just like the baloney stats that you have not substantiated, you can keep spewing BS. Just don't expect the rest of us to not call you on it.

2112 · Post by **2112** » Thu May 30, 2013 4:32 pm

If the prefential route for a Minnesota kid is the NCAA, then why did the Gophers only have 1 SENIOR this year, where did the others go in that recruiting class and why did they leave?

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Thu May 30, 2013 4:33 pm

Still waiting to hear why only one in four kids take advantage of the best educational program in all of hockey?

Statements like " the best" in any thing cause most of us to dig a little deeper. I'll even go so far as to say that the WHL program might be best for some but not all.

I keep hearing the virtues of Canadian Universities but what doe that mean to a kid from the twin cities? I can honestly say I've never heard anyone tell me how bad he or she would like to go to McDill. Much the same I'm sure that kid up in Calgary has never dreamed of attending Michigan State. The benefits of NCAA hockey go far beyond a degree and on ice success. If you could even accept that for some, college is the best route, most of us would let this go.

Two contemporaries, Zach Buddish and Josh Birkholz are two 91 born players with local roots. Both attended the U and one leaves for the W. Zach completes his degree and moves on to the AHL. Josh spends two years in the W and moves on to the ECHL and now faces the prospect of going back to the minors or pursuing the finest scholarship program available to a hockey player.

Both are the same age, one has a degree in his hand, is playing professionally and because of his local exposure has great potential in the local job market. The other faces a tough decision and is at the very least years behind the other when it comes to being qualified for the same career track. One can enjoy hockey no strings attached, the other must make a big decision about his future. As a parent which would you want for your son?

I realize this is just one example but when you paint with a broad brush it opens the matter up for further inspection.

Maybe this is exactly why only one in four graduate.

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Thu May 30, 2013 4:46 pm

scorekeeper wrote: The NCAA absolutely forces you to choose and it forces you to choose at the young age of 15 or 16. If you choose NCAA you can't play major junior.

This is laughably false. The NCAA offers an option. Nobody has a gun to any kid's head and makes them do anything. On either side. We could just as easily blame the Canadian system for feeling the need to create a draft of young kids and "forcing them" to make a choice at a young age. But I don't believe that either. The reality is the system is set up on both sides and a kid has to make a choice based on it.

Even then, it is hardly a case of where a kid has to choose anything at 15 or 16. Look at Ryan Gropp. He turns 17 soon. Right now (or a year from now), he could go play for Seattle. Or he could decide to play NCAA (which sounds like a real possibility for him). He's keeping his options open. His dad played NCAA hockey so he doesn't get fooled into the belief that he has to do something. Either avenue would wait and take him. The reality is there is no rush for a kid to feel like he has to go to the WHL ASAP. That's just BS to pressure kids into thinking they have to do something they don't.

Seth Jones could have gone to UND last year or play WHL. He had plenty of options as an 18 year old. Although Exiled One is correct. The best players like Jones have far more options in NCAA (where nobody owns the only rights to a prospect).

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Thu May 30, 2013 4:57 pm

2112 wrote:If the prefential route for a Minnesota kid is the NCAA, then why did the Gophers only have 1 SENIOR this year, where did the others go in that recruiting class and why did they leave?

The incoming class in 2009-2010 (which was this year's seniors) originally only had 4 players. Helgeson, Budish, Leddy, and Birkholz.

Budish was technically a redshirt junior this year because of a knee injury a prior season. The reality is he was a senior academically. He finished the academic aspects and understandably signed pro deal.

Helgeson played his four years and graduated.

We all know where Nick Leddy is. He's playing in the Western Conference finals. Can't say we can fault his decision since he was seeing a consistent shift in the NHL in what would have been his sophomore college season.

Birkholz left the program because he had some off the ice issues (that I won't discuss in this forum) and left for the WHL. (even the WHL has Gopher rejects)

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Thu May 30, 2013 4:59 pm

keepyourheadup wrote:I realize this is just one example but when you paint with a broad brush it opens the matter up for further inspection.

Maybe this is exactly why only one in four graduate.

Excellent response!

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:11 pm

Gopher Blog wrote:I said the pro-WHL rubes (that'd be the likes of you) always try to gloss over these realities

Substantiate please. Give me one example where I have glossed this over. Your BS may fly on your pro-NCAA blog but it don't fly with me

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:18 pm

All it takes is your avoidance of the topic until it is brought up by somebody else to see you don't want to acknowledge the downside of the WHL package. You just want to focus on it like it is all good.

If cherry picking out the realities that ruin your argument helps you here, so be it. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

If anybody ought to be substantiating anything, it is you and your BS stats that you pull out of your butt. You've been asked on it several times and we see nothing. Big shock.

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:21 pm

keepyourheadup wrote:Still waiting to hear why only one in four kids take advantage of the best educational program in all of hockey?

Well, that's a fasle statement, so you'll have to substantiate your own bogus numbers. The WHL graduates closer to 30% of it's players. That's a pretty good number, considering almost 60% of WHL grads realize their life long goal of playing hockey professionally. The scholarship program is a consolation prize.

keepyourheadup wrote:Statements like " the best" in any thing cause most of us to dig a little deeper. I'll even go so far as to say that the WHL program might be best for some but not all.

That's good. I want you to dig deeper. Don't follow the blind BS spewed by the likes of Gopher Blog and other shills. Dig deep and get informed.

keepyourheadup wrote:The benefits of NCAA hockey go far beyond a degree and on ice success. If you could even accept that for some, college is the best route, most of us would let this go.

ummm, ok. Maybe you aren't reading what I am posting. That would make sense on a few of your posts ...

scorekeeper wrote: Minnesota also is a hotbed of NCAA hockey and there is great appeal to keeping kids in their own bed through high school graduation and being close to home in University. Minnesotans truly have the best options of anyone and the NCAA is a better option for Minnesotans than it is anywhere else in the world.

Again, we have many friends doing quite well on the NCAA path and the CHL path as well. I am not trying to bash the NCAA as a legitimate option with great benefits. I am simply setting the record straight on the WHL path, which has been badly misrepresented, villainized and oversimplified on this forum.

keepyourheadup wrote:Two contemporaries, Zach Buddish and Josh Birkholz are two 91 born players with local roots. Both attended the U and one leaves for the W. Zach completes his degree and moves on to the AHL. Josh spends two years in the W and moves on to the ECHL and now faces the prospect of going back to the minors or pursuing the finest scholarship program available to a hockey player.

Both are the same age, one has a degree in his hand, is playing professionally and because of his local exposure has great potential in the local job market. The other faces a tough decision and is at the very least years behind the other when it comes to being qualified for the same career track. One can enjoy hockey no strings attached, the other must make a big decision about his future. As a parent which would you want for your son?

I know Budish and some of his family very well. Good people. I am sincerely happy for him. As for Birkholz , I don't know what his options were when he was 16/17. It could be he has done very well for himself. Not sure.

If he were my son, I wish he would have went to the WHL at 16 and had better options, but again, I don't know if he had this option. Leaving the U at a late age diminished his options somewhat, but it might have been the best decision for him at the time. Only him and his family know for sure.

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:22 pm

Gopher Blog wrote:All it takes is your avoidance of the topic until it is brought up by somebody else to see you don't want to acknowledge the downside of the WHL package. You just want to focus on it like it is all good.

Please enlighten me, what's the downside?

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:24 pm

Gopher Blog wrote:If anybody ought to be substantiating anything, it is you and your BS stats that you pull out of your butt. You've been asked on it several times and we see nothing.

What stat? What is it you want substantiated? Don't you know the numbers? Or do you just like shooting your mouth off without knowing? Oops ... Bingo!

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:38 pm

scorekeeper wrote:Please enlighten me, what's the downside?

It's already been brought up plenty by myself and others here.

But I'd expect you to see it that way. That's why it is so easy to laugh your comments off.

Your agenda is to focus all on the good and try to ignore anything that undermines your arguments. For example, I bring up examples like Gropp and Jones and you've got nothing to come back with on such situations. Why? Because it ruins your idiotic statement that somehow NCAA "forces" kids to make decisions at 15 or 16. You're a joke.

I'm just glad there are entities that fight the kind of ignorance you bring to the table and keep kids informed on ALL aspects.

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:44 pm

the number from the posted article said 24% in the CHL, well holy smokes turns out it close to 30! so I'll rephrase it...why does only one in every 3 to 4 take advantage of this great opportunity while 8 to 9 out of ten graduate from college hockey.
Now we moved it to professional hockey, whats the average career length in the ECHL after which you've forfeited the best scholarship program in hockey?

Just answer...why do so few take advantage? it ok, I think we know

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:46 pm

Crazy thing is if I were Peter Mueller's father I would have been all in, great for some , not so great for others.

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Thu May 30, 2013 6:11 pm

[quote="scorekeeper"][quote="Lazy Scout"]Bottom line is the WHL is not for the true student athlete. .[/quote]

That's the BIG LIE. The WHL is absolutely for the true student athlete. A better scholarship with more variety. Due to the fact most will not make the NHL, serious students should find the WHL MORE appealing due to it's superior scholarship. A 7 year fully paid for Masters degree beats a partially paid for bachelors degree. I hope your college taught you that.[/quote]

Wow, and only 1 in 3.5 of the guys use it.

Lazy Scout · Post by **Lazy Scout** » Thu May 30, 2013 6:35 pm

Only 6 scholarships were awarded to US colleges and universities from the WHL in 2012-2013. The rest all went to Canadian schools.

It may be more appealing to a Canadian to go to the University of Alberta or University of Saskatechewan if the WHL doesn't pan out but I would assume most Minnesotans would rather attend college in the US.

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Thu May 30, 2013 6:58 pm

keepyourheadup wrote:the number from the posted article said 24% in the CHL, well holy smokes turns out it close to 30! so I'll rephrase it...why does only one in every 3 to 4 take advantage of this great opportunity while 8 to 9 out of ten graduate from college hockey.
Just answer...why do so few take advantage?

I've answered this question about 5 times already, but I'll answer it once more. WHL aspire to play professional hockey and the WHL is so good at getting them there, that near 60% of them go on to realize their dream. Of the 40% or so that don't go on to play professional hockey, over 75% of those kids go on to graduate from the WHL scholarship program. The other 10% choose a variety of different paths. Opening own business, etc. They are heros in their WHL communities and lots of opportunities also exist for them after their playing careers are done.

Professional opportunities are more rampant than ever. 9K minimum now per month in the AHL and many playing pulling down 6 figures. European Leagues paying large 6 figure salaries and KHL teams breaching the million mark. WHL players saturadte these leagues.

The reason so few cash in the consolation prize, is because so many achieve the main prize.

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Thu May 30, 2013 7:00 pm

Lazy Scout wrote:It may be more appealing to a Canadian to go to the University of Alberta or University of Saskatechewan if the WHL doesn't pan out but I would assume most Minnesotans would rather attend college in the US.

You are correct, and that's why Minnesotan players are designated with Minnesota schools on their contracts. They can switch them if they like, but Walkers, Corbett, Iverson, Nelson, Bittner all have a designated Minnesota school on their contracts.